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[dzertushoth]

In DA:O there was a partly burnt book in a locked chest in Ogrimmar called "The Search for the True Prophet". Among other things, the book said that Andraste wasn't really the bride of the maker, but was rather an extremely powerful mage. This got me to thinking that maybe that is true, and maybe the Chantry is based on a lie. Clearly there is some evidence that she wasn't , among them being the Ashes of Adraste which actually seemed to have healing powers. But there could be other explanations, like the possibility that she was a powerful spirit healer, and some of that power lives on.

Against this though is the entire story itself. The idea that the Maker had turned his back on man, but then changed him mind when he heard her sing? Then, after she was killed, he turns his back on man again. It seems rather convenient that he hasn't bothered to watch us all this time, save the few short months/years of her rebellion. And his power didn't stop her from being betrayed and murdered. But hey, when things in life suck, don't blame the Maker - we made him turn his back on us by slaying Andraste. This gives the chantry a reason for "why bad things happen to good people" type arguements - the Maker turned his back on us when we killed his bride. So really, its our fault for being too sinful. 

Even the idea of spreading the chant to the 4 corners of the earth to regain his favor seems fairy-tale like almost. Its the kind of thing people can strive for, but can never been quantifiably proven. There's always someone else that needs to hear the chant, or that needs to be converted and help chant it. THEN the Maker will love us again. Until then, keep the faith, and keep spreading his word.

The Elves didn't believe in the Maker originally. They had their own pantheon of gods before humans came to Thedas. The Dwarves also don't worship the maker (or at least didn't before). They followed the Paragons in something kind of resembling ancestor worship as much as anything else, though they also seem to worship the stone, or at least have somewhat reverent feelings towards it. The Qunari follow the Qun, which seems to be mostly writings of their prophet the Ashkaari Koslun.

So despite the "fact" that the Maker pre-dates the old gods, none of the old races seemed to be aware of him. It's not until Andraste appears that worship of the Maker becomes popular. After her death, the Chantry forms, the Chant is created, etc. As with most religions, especially ones with an army, they begin converting/conquering everyone else and trying to force them or persuade them to their own views.
 
Probably because Andraste herself was a mage, she laid out so many guidelines concering magic and how she thought it should be practiced. She decided what was "good magic" and what wasn't (probably based on what types of magic she herself used more than anything else, and her hatred of the Imperium and their use of Blood Magic). I doubt she had anything to do with the imprisonment of the mages in the Circle, though perhaps I'm forgetting some piece of Lore; I'm thinking that was brought about years afterwards by the Chantry in an effort to control mages and keep more power for themselves. The fact that the mages really are so dangerous and open to possession, combined with Andraste's council of magic serving man, never ruling over him, and further augmented by the fear and horror of the blood mages of the Imperium has made it so that even most mages feel they need to locked up for the good of everyone else and themselves.

Much of this leads back again to Morrigan, and her views on the Old Gods. Its more of an aside, but I can understand her hatred of the Chantry, the Circle, and the Maker. To her, these things have supplanted her own gods, her way of life, and have made her a fugitive forever hiding from the templar. Her desire to bring back one of the old gods without the taint is an interesting goal, and I'm curious to see if there's more DLC in store for us along those lines.

I'm also hoping we find out more about the Golden City/Black City. The idea that Corypheus and the other original magistars were responsible for corrupting the city seems to fit what we learned in the first game in the Fade (that it was corrupted when mortals tried to breach its walls). It it the home of the Maker, assuming there even is a Maker? Or was it the home of the Old Gods, and when it became corrupted they did too (thus starting the Dark Spawn, the blights, etc). If Morrigan's child is really one of the Old Gods reborn, and free of the Taint, what would that even mean for the world of DA and the Fade?

I love the world that these games have created for us. Its fascinating and deep, with real characters to interact with who have complicated and layer personalities and stories of their own. Especially Morrigan, who could well be the greatest NPC in any role-playing game I've ever tried. I'm anxious for DA:3 and hoping it will answer some of the questions I've been wondering now since DA:1.

[thats1evildude]

dzertushoth wrote...

In DA:O there was a partly burnt book in a locked chest in Orzammar called "The Search for the True Prophet". Among other things, the book said that Andraste wasn't really the bride of the maker, but was rather an extremely powerful mage. This got me to thinking that maybe that is true, and maybe the Chantry is based on a lie.

I'm eternally mystified that people treat a relatively obscure gift item with a three-line description — a book that you cannot read, and which is buried in the back of a dwarven library — as hard evidence that Andraste was a mage and that the Chantry is based on lies. LIES I TELL YOU!

I realize that there's a lot of anti-Chantry sentiment, but you have no idea what the book contains, or whether it's a load of discredited nonsense that was burned because it kind of sucked. Maker knows I've tossed my share of trashy novels in a burn barrel.

dzertushoth wrote...

So despite the "fact" that the Maker pre-dates the old gods, none of the old races seemed to be aware of him. It's not until Andraste appears that worship of the Maker becomes popular. After her death, the Chantry forms, the Chant is created, etc.

Ah, but this is a mistake. Andraste did not introduce people to the worship of the Maker, she RETURNED Thedas to the worship of the Maker. The humans that made up the Tevinter Imperium turned AWAY from the Maker and began to revere the Old Gods instead.

It's true that the elves and dwarves did not worship him, but belief in the Maker has been around for a very, very long time. It just wasn't always called the Chantry.

dzertushoth wrote...

I'm also hoping we find out more about the Golden City/Black City. The idea that Corypheus and the other original magistars were responsible for corrupting the city seems to fit what we learned in the first game in the Fade (that it was corrupted when mortals tried to breach its walls). It it the home of the Maker, assuming there even is a Maker? Or was it the home of the Old Gods, and when it became corrupted they did too (thus starting the Dark Spawn, the blights, etc). If Morrigan's child is really one of the Old Gods reborn, and free of the Taint, what would that even mean for the world of DA and the Fade? 

I love the world that these games have created for us. Its fascinating and deep, with real characters to interact with who have complicated and layer personalities and stories of their own. Especially Morrigan, who could well be the greatest NPC in any role-playing game I've ever tried. I'm anxious for DA:3 and hoping it will answer some of the questions I've been wondering now since DA:1.

I echo those thoughts. I do hope to learn more of the Black City and the Maker, if he truly exists. And I agree that Morrigan was pretty interesting. I would like to see her again. 

Modifié par thats1evildude, 11 août 2011 - 08:45 .

[whykikyouwhy]

What makes a deity is probably a good question to ask for everything seemingly "divine" in the DA universe - what is it exactly that classifies an entity as a god? Is it power? Is it creative energy? Is it the simple presence of worshippers, who in turn may provide some sort of power through prayer? At least, that's how I am trying to look at things.

As for Andraste and the Maker - I personally remain skeptical regarding both. I'm inclined to think of the Maker as an old god (capitalized or not) that was repackaged by the Chantry. A matter of convenience to change a society from polytheisic to monotheistic and therefore control/sway/influence the people of Thedas in a more precise way. Not to say that the Chantry's intentions were bad - there is some desire for a "moral" code in their teachings (but morality is, in many ways, subjective).

As for the Golden-Black City....there have been numerous threads in this particular forum where theories and speculation have been bandied back and forth. I hesitate to repeat them here, lest I slip into madness.

Oh, and Morrigan is indeed keen and most bad*ss.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 11 août 2011 - 09:22 .

[mesmerizedish]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

As for the Golden-Black City....there have been numerous threads in this particular forum where theories and speculation have been bandied back and forth. I hesitate to repeat them here, lest i slip into madness.

I dispute your theory.

I have never had a Twinkie.

[whykikyouwhy]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

As for the Golden-Black City....there have been numerous threads in this particular forum where theories and speculation have been bandied back and forth. I hesitate to repeat them here, lest i slip into madness.

I dispute your theory.

I have never had a Twinkie.

And because you have never had a Twinkie, you have saved yourself from corruption. You are Blight-free and without trans-fats and preservatives.

[Renessa]

I must admit, the idea of Andraste actually being a mage would be brilliantly ironic.

Andraste as the "Bride of the Maker" always sounded weird to me anyway. My gut feeling was, that she attracted the attention of a powerful spirit, who sort of possessed her. This theory developed before the whole Justice/Anders story. I was more thinking along the lines of Wynn and her protective spirit. And, if she really was a mage (untrained) that would make even more sense.

BUT: When the Warden is looking for Andraste's Ashes, the spirits in the ruined Temple more or less totally support the official story line.

[In Exile]

Renessa wrote...
BUT: When the Warden is looking for Andraste's Ashes, the spirits in the ruined Temple more or less totally support the official story line.

The spirit doesn't know a lot of things. It's also pretty easily beaten back. There may well have been bloodmagic as well, with the ash wraiths. 

[whykikyouwhy]

In Exile wrote...

Renessa wrote...
BUT: When the Warden is looking for Andraste's Ashes, the spirits in the ruined Temple more or less totally support the official story line.

The spirit doesn't know a lot of things. It's also pretty easily beaten back. There may well have been bloodmagic as well, with the ash wraiths. 

All of the spirits had some tie to Andraste the mortal (perhaps I should put that in quotes?), but each speaks of her in the divine/saint form. So really, they support the Chantry lore, but having known the woman, having seen whatever greatness or miracle or post-death influence that occured when the ashes cooled, so to speak, they could be caught up in glowy-eyed adoration, and may have all been part and party to how Andraste was elevated to a deity of sorts. Perhaps they spun the myth and legend, or set that ball in motion.

That whole portion of the Sacred Urn quest is called "A Test of Faith" - this could all be about the power of belief. Believe hard enough and reality is changed - actual, true reality, no, but your personal concept of reality, yes. And the spirits were surely believers of a fashion.

[thats1evildude]

Oghren does say that there is a substantial amount of lyrium in the area that could be altering the environment in some way, allowing the Guardian to exist and perhaps even giving the Ashes their healing power. But that's all up for debate.

As it stands, the lore currently supports the veracity of the Chant of Light.

[Renessa]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Renessa wrote...
BUT: When the Warden is looking for Andraste's Ashes, the spirits in the ruined Temple more or less totally support the official story line.

The spirit doesn't know a lot of things. It's also pretty easily beaten back. There may well have been bloodmagic as well, with the ash wraiths. 

All of the spirits had some tie to Andraste the mortal (perhaps I should put that in quotes?), but each speaks of her in the divine/saint form. So really, they support the Chantry lore, but having known the woman, having seen whatever greatness or miracle or post-death influence that occured when the ashes cooled, so to speak, they could be caught up in glowy-eyed adoration, and may have all been part and party to how Andraste was elevated to a deity of sorts. Perhaps they spun the myth and legend, or set that ball in motion.

That whole portion of the Sacred Urn quest is called "A Test of Faith" - this could all be about the power of belief. Believe hard enough and reality is changed - actual, true reality, no, but your personal concept of reality, yes. And the spirits were surely believers of a fashion.

Yes, this is what I suspected a little bit.

Whatever Andraste was, she must have been a very strong personality, somebody who was capable of not only reviving a forgotton religion, but also taking on the the all-powerfull Tevinter Imperium and actually recruiting the help of the elves, who did not even share her faith in the Maker.

So, I can easily comprehend, that people who witnessed her actions and her personality saw her as a "Chosen One".

Perhaps she even believed it herself. Perhaps she was not aware of her magical powers or that the voice in her head might not be a "god" but a spirit of the Fade.

Oh, and by the way, is it just me that really loves the fact that this powerful prophet/religious founder is a woman for a change...

[whykikyouwhy]

Renessa wrote...

Yes, this is what I suspected a little bit.

Whatever Andraste was, she must have been a very strong personality, somebody who was capable of not only reviving a forgotton religion, but also taking on the the all-powerfull Tevinter Imperium and actually recruiting the help of the elves, who did not even share her faith in the Maker.

So, I can easily comprehend, that people who witnessed her actions and her personality saw her as a "Chosen One".

Perhaps she even believed it herself. Perhaps she was not aware of her magical powers or that the voice in her head might not be a "god" but a spirit of the Fade.

Oh, and by the way, is it just me that really loves the fact that this powerful prophet/religious founder is a woman for a change...  

She was the Thedas version of Joan of Arc. And she possessed the Cult of Personality.

And no, it's not just you.   One of the things that I truly appreciate about Bioware games is the broad and expansive role of women. The female companions can all hold their own in word and deed.

[Renessa]

Of course she resembles Joan of Arc, even the fact that she dies on the stake, betrayed by her allies (instead of a treacherous King, her own husband delivered her to the enemy).

It is a great background story and for me the fact, that it is so ambivalent is what makes it more interesting.

[Rifneno]

A fraud in what sense? That she wasn't divine? Oh no, she was definitely divine. The whole "Maker" thing was a fairy tale, however. She is the old god baby of the first archdemon, Dumat, the most powerful of the dragon gods.

Check the timeline. In the year 992 TE, the first archdemon was slain at the Battle of Silent Fields. In 1020 TE Andraste appears with her armies to finish off the Tevinter Imperium that was brought to its knees by the 200 years of blight. If anyone thinks that's a coincidence, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Edit:  I suck at proofreading.

Modifié par Rifneno, 11 août 2011 - 10:48 .

[dzertushoth]

thats1evildude wrote...
I'm eternally mystified that people treat a relatively obscure gift item with a three-line description — a book that you cannot read, and which is buried in the back of a dwarven library — as hard evidence that Andraste was a mage and that the Chantry is based on lies. LIES I TELL YOU!

I realize that there's a lot of anti-Chantry sentiment, but you have no idea what the book contains, or whether it's a load of discredited nonsense that was burned because it kind of sucked. Maker knows I've tossed my share of trashy novels in a burn barrel.

Agreed - its one obscure book and we really don't know what else it says. But I'm not claiming that the whole Andraste story is definitively fraudulent based on that. I'm just putting it forth as an idea. If we later learn she was the bride of the Maker, as we've been told, I wouldn't be disappointed. In fact, one thing I love about this game is the ambiguity in nearly every aspect of this world. The very fact that Bioware introduced the possibility of her being a fake is what I find most interesting.

People mentioned the spirits as well - I was thinking of them too. They do seem to support the actual lore given by the Chantry, but then again all these people knew Andraste and none ever saw/met the Maker. None ever heard his voice, save Andraste herself. So as someone above me already pointed out, its possible they were each drawn in by her power/personality as well. Clearly many parts of the story are based on actual events of their world. There was a woman named Andraste who led a rebellion, freed the slaves, and died at the stake. Its the idea of her song somehow winning over the Maker and him turning his back on man because of her death that I am questioning. Even if there was/is an actual Deity known as The Maker, it still wouldn't necessarily mean she heard his voice or that he worked his will through her. For all we know he may have turned his back on man the first time and only time, and her actions were entirely unnoticed by him and the result of her own powerful magics. Afterall, the story ends with him turning his back on man again when she dies. The entire Chantry and their faith could have sprung up worshipping some ancient god that isn't even aware of their existance.

[Plaintiff]

Whatever Andraste is, I don't think she's what the Chantry presents her as. I do not think it would be a stretch to say that the Chant of Light is far removed from the original teachings of Andraste. The fact is that she existed millenia ago, if she existed at all (though I have to say, so far it looks like she did). There is no telling how her teachings have been altered, if she even wrote them herself to begin with.

To put this in perspective, almost none of the known religious texts in our world exist in their original form. They've all been censored, revised, edited and rewritten ad infinitum. The chances of the Chant of Light and the story of Andraste being an accurate representation of events are slim to nil.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I think in general, the Chant of Light is mostly a fairy tale, so when it comes to Andraste, the Chant can only be counted on to give its version. I don't think she was a fraud. The Chantry might be, seeing how it was formed long after her death and the death of her peers and followers, and was formed by an Orlesian emporer for political reasons, not spiritual ones.

The real Andraste is lost to the fog of time. Though the Gauntlet alone pretty much puts much of what the Chantry practices and teaches currently into question.

[LobselVith8]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I think in general, the Chant of Light is mostly a fairy tale, so when it comes to Andraste, the Chant can only be counted on to give its version. I don't think she was a fraud. The Chantry might be, seeing how it was formed long after her death and the death of her peers and followers, and was formed by an Orlesian emporer for political reasons, not spiritual ones.

The real Andraste is lost to the fog of time. Though the Gauntlet alone pretty much puts much of what the Chantry practices and teaches currently into question.

There were a number of Cults of Andraste in existance after her death, and the modern day Chantry of Andraste only rose to prominence because King Drakon I was a member of one particular Cult and decided to start a number of Exalted Marches to establish that one as the dominant religion in the religion, eventually becoming Emperor when he gained enough territory from his initial city-state.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

He didn't go into detail about it, but the Guardian of the Sacred Ashes seems to confirm that the disciples of Andraste of the time of her first Exalted March also believed she was a prophetess of the Maker.

[TEWR]

Personally, I believe Andraste was not only a mage, but that the First Blight was led by Razikale the Dragon of Mystery and not Dumat, and that Andraste is the Razikale OGB. And that Andraste the Razi OGB is Flemeth.

Now, I don't take that gift as hard evidence, but I do consider that Andraste was a mage. I also wonder if she may have been a Somniari mage who used blood magic. We've actually received nothing else to point us to what Andraste may have been. If she wasn't a mage, we don't know. We've never been told she rode into battle on a fiery chariot pulled by the blazing saddles horses of the Maker wielding a sword and shield. We don't know much more about how she fought other than that book and the stories that she used the Maker's power to defeat her enemies. And details on the Maker's actual existence are sketchy at best. Hell I believe he doesn't even exist. Anyway, if the Maker doesn't actually exist, then Andraste being a mage is the only way that she could've destroyed the Imperium's armies with famine (IIRC, Shartan's spectre says that she did that)

I believe that Andraste wanted mages to help the world and not rule over it. That she wanted mages to use their gifts to help society (spirit healers and blood mages specifically). But the Chantry twisted her words as an excuse to lock them up because they believe mages tainted the "Golden City", turning it Black.

But... we have evidence to the contrary. That the Magisters did indeed enter the City doesn't prove much of anything. Corypheus implies it was always black (which I believe too), and while he did become a Darkspawn, he and his drinking buddies (The Architect among them I like to believe) were not the first Darkspawn. Merely the first Awakened Darkspawn.

We know that Red Lyrium thins the Veil, and that the idol Meredith has makes the same whispering noise the Darkspawn hear. We also know the Darkspawn were avoiding the Primeval Thaig. Why? My guess is that their origin was there, and for some reason they're scared to go there.

Dwarves fought the Darkspawn long before humanity ever did, and the Darkspawn they fought were Genlocks. We also know that too much usage of lyrium supposedly twists people into looking like horrible versions of themselves, so much so that they are sometimes unrecognizable.

Blue Lyrium is called "The Waters of the Fade" and "The Voice of the Maker". What if Red Lyrium is the Voice of the Old Gods? The Old Gods supposedly taught blood magic to the Imperium (though the elves are said to have known it first), but dragons do use blood magic (see the Silverite Mine's dragons). The Reaver version of the Joining makes the same whispering noise that the Darkspawn hear, that we hear in the Joining, and that we hear in the Meredith final battle. It cannot be a coincidence that we hear the same noise in these things. The Darkspawn are drawn to the call of the Old Gods and twist them into Archdemons. Archdemons have a connection with lesser dragons, as the battle of Denerim showed. The Grey Wardens are connected to the Archdemon and the Darkspawn, and the Red Lyrium has to be connected to these things.

We also know that Avernus' notes tell of a connection between the Black City and the Taint, and that in Broken Circle there was an entire portion of the Fade that had Darkspawn.

If I had to hazard a guess, the Dwarves have more to do with the emergence of the Darkspawn than the Magisters.

I don't buy into the whole "Sing the Chant from the four corners and the Maker will return" schtick. I think it's just the Chantry's excuse for having political influence all over the world and an excuse to collar mages everywhere (the Divine even contemplates an Exalted March on Orzammar because mages were free there).

Also, Morrigan is an atheist. She doesn't worship any religion. That she wants to keep the Old God's soul doesn't make her a worshipper of the Old Gods. If she worships anything, it's power.

EDIT: And as for her Ashes, Oghren believes that it's the large amount of lyrium in the mountain that's not only keeping the Guardian alive, but also gives the Ashes their healing power. And while Andraste did exist (The Guardian, as well as the other spirits, confirm it), her past is shrouded in mystery.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 août 2011 - 01:23 .

[erynnar]

Nice Eth! You said everything I was thinking and it's long so I won't quote it. But yeah, I agree with you.

[lobi]

@Ethereal also consider: Flemith of Highever's connection to House Cousland via Conoban.
Was The Temple of the ashes built by Tevinter chantry (blood magic)? Does Dwarven 'Stone Sense' re:Crosscut Drifters and the difference in mining techniques to 'Official standards' relate to lyrium or an affinity with Stone?

Modifié par lobi, 12 août 2011 - 02:11 .

[TEWR]

I believe the Temple was built by the original Disciples of Andraste, who fled from Tevinter.

It's odd how the Dwarves (and spirits of the Fade) can hear the lyrium sing to them and can sense it. The Dwarves are connected to Lyrium and Magic much more than people think. The clues are there, but they're scattered all over the place.

[lobi]

'Power of the Maker' could also refer to Lyrium based explosive. What if Andrastae was a Dwarven engineer who went mad from excessive exposure, started hearing voices and it all went to hell in a handbasket from there. Constant exposure would have put a High Lyrium content into her Dwarven physiology hence the power of the ashes.
zomg I'm a genius!

Modifié par lobi, 12 août 2011 - 02:27 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Dwarves didn't fight Darkspawn before humans did... The Darkspawn appeared suddenly and overwhelmed their Empire.

[TEWR]

You realize for the Darkspawn to have found an Old God, they would've had to have been underground first and would have had to fight the Dwarves? That's pretty much enough proof that the Dwarves fought them before humans, especially considering humanity had never seen Darkspawn before and were unaccustomed to fighting them.