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[TEWR]

lobi wrote...

'Power of the Maker' could also refer to Lyrium based explosive. What if Andrastae was a Dwarven engineer who went mad from excessive exposure, started hearing voices and it all went to hell in a handbasket from there. Constant exposure would have put a High Lyrium content into her Dwarven physiology hence the power of the ashes.
zomg I'm a genius!

Mind = Blown. My mind is full of **** right now.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You realize for the Darkspawn to have found an Old God, they would've had to have been underground first and would have had to fight the Dwarves? That's pretty much enough proof that the Dwarves fought them before humans, especially considering humanity had never seen Darkspawn before and were unaccustomed to fighting them.

If you believe what the Chantry says that they were actually imprisoned udnerground literally, yes. Then the Dwarves may have fought the Darkspawn first, but only for a few decades at most, perhaps even only years.

I, however, find it far more likely that the Old Gods were imprisoned inside the Black City, and that they tricked the Magisters into comming to the Black City, and then sue the magisters portal to release themselves. I also believe the Magisters used the Elven Eluvians to enter the Black CIty. And as you know, the Eluvians were parts of Arlathan, which were sunk beneath the Earth by the Tevinters. This in turn caused the Old Gods to re-enter Thedas underground, where they were trapped again, and needs to wait for the Darkspawn to dig them out.

[whykikyouwhy]

I was doing sooooo well with my addiciton to speculation. I was. Truly. And now...this.
I am apparently slave to hazy notions and conspiracy theories.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

lobi wrote...

'Power of the Maker' could also refer to Lyrium based explosive. What if Andrastae was a Dwarven engineer who went mad from excessive exposure, started hearing voices and it all went to hell in a handbasket from there. Constant exposure would have put a High Lyrium content into her Dwarven physiology hence the power of the ashes.
zomg I'm a genius!

Mind = Blown. My mind is full of **** right now.

The wiki refers to Andraste as a barbarian, an escaped slave, and a Fereldan, who led the Alamarri. Of whom, the wiki states:

"When the Alamarri first passed into Ferelden from the distant west, some moved into the swampy forest vastness and the tundra beyond it to the south now known as the Korcari Wilds. " 

Funny place, the Kocari Wilds. Lots of weird stuff goes on there. The devs' breadcrumb trail leads to the Witch's house.

I'm not sure that Andraste was a dwarven engineer, but then I'm not so sure she actually sang the praises of the Maker. She may have sung the praises of an older god who the Chantry repackaged as the Maker. A convenient strike out of one name in the annals of history, to replace it with another. And really, "the Maker" is less a name and more a title, right? An identity or aspect of a creator. The true name of that god could be anything. Only his aspect may remain.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You realize for the Darkspawn to have found an Old God, they would've had to have been underground first and would have had to fight the Dwarves? That's pretty much enough proof that the Dwarves fought them before humans, especially considering humanity had never seen Darkspawn before and were unaccustomed to fighting them.

If you believe what the Chantry says that they were actually imprisoned udnerground literally, yes. Then the Dwarves may have fought the Darkspawn first, but only for a few decades at most, perhaps even only years.

I, however, find it far more likely that the Old Gods were imprisoned inside the Black City, and that they tricked the Magisters into comming to the Black City, and then sue the magisters portal to release themselves. I also believe the Magisters used the Elven Eluvians to enter the Black CIty. And as you know, the Eluvians were parts of Arlathan, which were sunk beneath the Earth by the Tevinters. This in turn caused the Old Gods to re-enter Thedas underground, where they were trapped again, and needs to wait for the Darkspawn to dig them out.

Is it possible that the Deep Roads and where the Darkspawn first appeared may not have been that "deep" to begin with? Cities have been built upon cities as centuries progress. The divide between surface and underground may have been shorter/thinner. Great wars and cataclyms may have changed the nature of the land, at least when and where the Darkspawn first appeared. And since we have some proof that elves and dwarves had a trade alliance of sorts, or an agreement to harbor refugees, it may be that the Darkspawn first appeared in an area where both dwelled, and may have dwelled with man.

Just theorizing, of course.

[Ylhaym]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Personally, I believe Andraste was not only a mage, but that the First Blight was led by Razikale the Dragon of Mystery and not Dumat, and that Andraste is the Razikale OGB. And that Andraste the Razi OGB is Flemeth.

Why Razikale and not Dumat? Can you explain sir? I find it interesting...

[WhiteKnyght]

IMO Andraste was a Somniari/Dreamer like Feynriel. If you listen to what the Guardian of the Gauntlet said about her, and what the ghosts in the Q&A about her life said, and compare it to what Marethari said that Dreamers can do, it's remarkably similar. And bringing Wynne or Oghren into the gauntlet yields more details about the place. Namely that it's magic, not divine.

Also the whole thing where Andraste's voice could convert people sounds a little like blood magic.

Its possible that Andraste was a bit nutty and thought she was talking to the Maker. Or it could have been a demon from the fade who was just planning to make an abomination out of her and conquer the world once Tevinter fell.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 12 août 2011 - 03:40 .

[dragonflight288]

My opinion is that there's enough historically written facts and eyewitness events to prove that Andraste did exist, she freed the slaves in southern Thedas, she was betrayed by her husband Maferath. But there is another Codex entry entirely overlooked about this.

One Codex entry states that what the chantry teaches and historical documents tell are actually different. The Chantry teaches that Maferath grew jealous of Andraste because the people loved her and gave her more credit for their victories than he himself did, the general. They teach he was jealous that he was the second husband.

But the codex entry states that Maferath actually looked at Tevinter's armies and despaired at their size and organization, and saw absolutely no way of winning now that Tevinter knew how much a threat Andraste was. And so he betrayed Andraste out of fear of Tevinter, not jealousy.

Bioware was genius in giving us multiple things, not just a gift, to doubt the word of the Chantry.

So yes, Andraste did exist, free the slaves in the south, and was betrayed to death. Everything else seems to have conflicting views on what happened. Was she a mage or bride of the maker? Was Maferath jealous or scared?

Considering that the dwarves encountered darkspawn long before humans ever did, I honestly doubt most of what the Chantry says. Corypheus made me take a step back and reevaluate many of my previous theories.

But in the end, not much changed. We only got more proof that some of what the Chantry says was correct. They got the timeline of the magisters going into the fade entirely wrong after all. Corypheus said he went in there 2000 years earlier when the first blight happened rougly 500-1000 years after that. The Chantry says the Magisters entering the City happened just before the blight.

Ummm....yeah. The whole timeline is skewed.

[TEWR]

Ylhaym wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Personally, I believe Andraste was not only a mage, but that the First Blight was led by Razikale the Dragon of Mystery and not Dumat, and that Andraste is the Razikale OGB. And that Andraste the Razi OGB is Flemeth.

Why Razikale and not Dumat? Can you explain sir? I find it interesting...

Well, Flemeth is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma, so the Dragon of Mystery fits better than the Dragon of Silence (especially since Flemeth is called "an old hag who talks too much", so a Dragon of Silence wouldn't quite work now would it? ).

Also, Dumat's Altar is apparently still active. Whether that's because Dumat is still alive or because of powerful ancient magic I don't know.

And that scholars argued for years to try and settle which Old God the Archdemon was, so whether they were correct is uncertain.

That's all I got.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If you believe what the Chantry says that they were actually imprisoned udnerground literally, yes. Then the Dwarves may have fought the Darkspawn first, but only for a few decades at most, perhaps even only years.

I, however, find it far more likely that the Old Gods were imprisoned inside the Black City, and that they tricked the Magisters into comming to the Black City, and then sue the magisters portal to release themselves. I also believe the Magisters used the Elven Eluvians to enter the Black CIty. And as you know, the Eluvians were parts of Arlathan, which were sunk beneath the Earth by the Tevinters. This in turn caused the Old Gods to re-enter Thedas underground, where they were trapped again, and needs to wait for the Darkspawn to dig them out.

While an interesting theory (the Eluvian part I disagree with though), that didn't disprove that Dwarves fought the Darkspawn before humanity ever did, which was what we were discussing.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 août 2011 - 04:05 .

[dragonflight288]

It's not inconceivable to believe that the scholars got it wrong. After all, the Old God are trapped under the earth. And if you notice, they have listed the blights coming up with the Old God's in the order of their hierarchy, not necessarily which god was where.

[Esbatty]

it was suggested I bring some of crack-chamber-pot theories over here by the loverly WhyKickYouWhy.

Alright *sets up shop*

1) Corphyeus's dark influence corrupted the lyrium beneath the Free Marches.

or 2) The Tevinter Magisters, in a effort to stymie the dwarves of the time, corrupted the Lyrium in the Free Marches in order to keep the Dwarves from assaulting the Imperial outpost in Kirkwall and the surrounding areas while they were vulnerable (ie being In The Fade while trying to breach the Golden City.

[jlb524]

Of course she is...

[Northern Sun]

My personal hypothesis was that Andraste was a "dreamer" mage, found some record of the defunct "Maker" religion, and used it as a cover story for her rise to power. Tevinter managed to make Thedas swear fealty, but with her status as a bride of a diety, Andraste would make Thedas want to swear fealty.

Of course, my hypothesis is colored by my anti-Chantry views, but I would love the irony of Andraste's rebellion being a way to replace the magisters with herself.

[Renessa]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Personally, I believe Andraste was not only a mage, but that the First Blight was led by Razikale the Dragon of Mystery and not Dumat, and that Andraste is the Razikale OGB. And that Andraste the Razi OGB is Flemeth.

(...)

Now, I must admit, I never get this. What is the connection between Flemeth and Andraste, besides both being powerful, mysterious female figures?

If we disregard everything we hear or read about their personal history (Andraste died in Tevinter, Flemeth being betrayed by her lover and her husband and becoming a powerful abomination etc.) as rumours or lies and only concentrate on the personality of these two women, in my opinion, it still does not fit:


Flemeth seems to work through agents. She picks pawns. She watches from the shadows. Andraste was a doer, she was in the center of events - so much so, that she completely overshadowed her General husband.

There is no hint of shape shifting in the tale of Andraste. Magic, I can believe, blood magic to compel her followers, perhaps, but turning into a dragon? The only connection Andraste - Dragon is made by this Cult in Haven and they are completely nuts.

Andraste seems to have despised the unbriddled rule of the mages of the Tevinter Imperium. Even if she was not as anti-mage as the Chantry later claimed, she seemed to have been in favour of some sort of control (perhaps self-control) of magical powers (magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him etc.)

Flemeth and Morrigan are all about power and wielding it.(God-baby!)

I just don't see how they could be one and the same person.

[whykikyouwhy]

Not that I subscribe to this idea, but maybe Andraste is supposed to be an aspect of Flemeth - sort of the Jesus role in a holy trinity. Andraste is the "daughter" of Flemeth - divine and mortal. God made flesh. Who then dies a mortal death to "save" the people.

Not an exact correlation, no. The personalities are completely different, but on the level of a god being able to walk among humans *as* a human, it might be feasible.

But that might be stretching it. And I'm not tied to that theory.

[Sir Edric]

It's a possibility yes. She could have just been a powerful mage. Hint her healing power ashes.

[Renessa]

Oh, wow - Andraste as one of Flemeth's daughters? Another one who rebels or does not fulfill her mother's ambitions, whatever they are? Fascinating idea.

[Gervaise]

One extra thought I would throw in here - could Andraste have actually been an elf or half elf?   You see, at least according to the elves, it was the elves who first responded to Andraste's call.  According to the Chantry her aim was to spread the Chant of Light but her main aim was clearly to topple the Tevinter Imperium and free the slaves and oppressed.  Then as now, the majority of people at the bottom of society were elves.  Shartan was meant to have been one of her chief followers and at least as responsible for the success of her armies as her earthly husband, but the Chantry have supressed the references to him in the Chant of Light - the isolated dissonant verse you get to hear in Ferelden is probably all that is left of a much larger amount about him.  Then in DA2 we find a book that was allegedly written by him or about him (I forget which) - I would love to actually know what it says but it is significant that it is in the elven alienage.  It is suggested somewhere that it was the elves who originally taught magic to humans.  Elven lore talks of the elves believing that the old elven gods abandoned them when they were conquered by the Imperium.  Andraste talks of the Maker turning his back on the world when they started worshipping the old gods of the Imperium.   May be the gift of magic was intended for the elves alone and it was through intermarriage with humans (or rape) that the gift of magic was spread to them.  Again there seems some confusion as to whether blood magic originated with the elves or came from the dragon gods. The elves also seem to have reservations about the use of blood magic which would be odd if it was truly part of their culture.
One of the promises of Andraste was clearly that the elves would get their own homeland back through backing her crusade - which was kept at the time.  This means that either Andraste had no objection to them worshipping their own gods, or they accepted the Maker at that time, in which case why did they revert back to the old elven gods when the Maker had clearly rewarded them for their faith?  Possibly because in some way the two are linked.  The Dales fell to an exalted march by the Chantry in Orlais - which was convenient since it formed part of what is now southern Orlais.  Seems to me that if you are looking for the truth about Andraste it is probably found somewhere in elven lore, possibly locked away in some cavern in that area.   
The Chant of Light is its basic form is something that I have no trouble following and my characters tend to believe in the message of Andraste.  Like Anders, they question the interpretation that the two Chantries (black and white) have put on that teaching.  Simply put, if all the world accepted the true Chant of Light, there would be no slaves, no cruelty, no oppression of the weak, no abuses of power, magic would be used to improve their lives and mages who used their gift in this way would be regarded as the blessed of the Maker.  Could this be how it was originally in Arlathan?  Andraste was not a fraud - the current Chantries are.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If you believe what the Chantry says that they were actually imprisoned udnerground literally, yes. Then the Dwarves may have fought the Darkspawn first, but only for a few decades at most, perhaps even only years.

I, however, find it far more likely that the Old Gods were imprisoned inside the Black City, and that they tricked the Magisters into comming to the Black City, and then sue the magisters portal to release themselves. I also believe the Magisters used the Elven Eluvians to enter the Black CIty. And as you know, the Eluvians were parts of Arlathan, which were sunk beneath the Earth by the Tevinters. This in turn caused the Old Gods to re-enter Thedas underground, where they were trapped again, and needs to wait for the Darkspawn to dig them out.

While an interesting theory (the Eluvian part I disagree with though), that didn't disprove that Dwarves fought the Darkspawn before humanity ever did, which was what we were discussing.

True. But it is not like the Dwarves fought the Darkspawn for untold generations before the humans. The Dwarves say that the Darkspawn simply appeared one day, and decimated their empire. They offer no origin story for the Darkspawn, but that they suddenly appeared, seems to coincide with the Magisters entering the Black City.

[esper]

Andraste as an elf or elfblooded. That would actually be extremely ironic given how the Shartan stuff was cut out of the chant. I vote for that one.

In any case, whatever Andraste was it is hardly fair to blame her for the chantry givent that the chantry didn't exits at her time. I think she would be mildly confused with modern Thedas,

[esper]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If you believe what the Chantry says that they were actually imprisoned udnerground literally, yes. Then the Dwarves may have fought the Darkspawn first, but only for a few decades at most, perhaps even only years.

I, however, find it far more likely that the Old Gods were imprisoned inside the Black City, and that they tricked the Magisters into comming to the Black City, and then sue the magisters portal to release themselves. I also believe the Magisters used the Elven Eluvians to enter the Black CIty. And as you know, the Eluvians were parts of Arlathan, which were sunk beneath the Earth by the Tevinters. This in turn caused the Old Gods to re-enter Thedas underground, where they were trapped again, and needs to wait for the Darkspawn to dig them out.

While an interesting theory (the Eluvian part I disagree with though), that didn't disprove that Dwarves fought the Darkspawn before humanity ever did, which was what we were discussing.

True. But it is not like the Dwarves fought the Darkspawn for untold generations before the humans. The Dwarves say that the Darkspawn simply appeared one day, and decimated their empire. They offer no origin story for the Darkspawn, but that they suddenly appeared, seems to coincide with the Magisters entering the Black City.

They didn't suddenly appear and decimated the dwarven kingdom. As far as I understood it, the decimation took some time.

[TEWR]

esper wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If you believe what the Chantry says that they were actually imprisoned udnerground literally, yes. Then the Dwarves may have fought the Darkspawn first, but only for a few decades at most, perhaps even only years.

I, however, find it far more likely that the Old Gods were imprisoned inside the Black City, and that they tricked the Magisters into comming to the Black City, and then sue the magisters portal to release themselves. I also believe the Magisters used the Elven Eluvians to enter the Black CIty. And as you know, the Eluvians were parts of Arlathan, which were sunk beneath the Earth by the Tevinters. This in turn caused the Old Gods to re-enter Thedas underground, where they were trapped again, and needs to wait for the Darkspawn to dig them out.

While an interesting theory (the Eluvian part I disagree with though), that didn't disprove that Dwarves fought the Darkspawn before humanity ever did, which was what we were discussing.

True. But it is not like the Dwarves fought the Darkspawn for untold generations before the humans. The Dwarves say that the Darkspawn simply appeared one day, and decimated their empire. They offer no origin story for the Darkspawn, but that they suddenly appeared, seems to coincide with the Magisters entering the Black City.

They didn't suddenly appear and decimated the dwarven kingdom. As far as I understood it, the decimation took some time.

Indeed. The battles started off as easy victories, but progressively grew worse and caused the entire army to be sent out against the unending horde of Genlocks.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Darkspawn did suddenly appear, and they tore the Dwarven empire apart rather swiftly. And where are you getting that it was only Genlocks they faced? I don't remember any codex entry saying that, nor any of the books.

[TEWR]

The surfacers claim that the first darkspawn fell from heaven. They spin tales of magic and sin. But the Children of the Stone know better. The darkspawn rose up out of the earth. For it was in the Deep Roads they first appeared. Creatures in our own likeness, armed and armored, but with no more intelligence than tezpadam, bestial and savage.

At first they were few, easily hunted and slain by our warriors. But in the recesses of the Deep Roads, they grew in numbers and in courage. Our distant thaigs came under attack, and now it was the army, not a few warriors, being sent to deal with the creatures. Victories still came easily, though, and we thought the threat would soon be over.

We were wrong.

--As told by Shaper Czibor.




They did suddenly appear, but from the belly of the earth. To the Dwarves, this would be a sudden appearance because they had never seen or fought these things before. And since the Primeval Thaig is under the Deep Roads, the Darkspawn rising up strengthens my belief that it's connected to the Darkspawn.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I thought it was was fairly common knowledge that the dwarves fought the darkspawn first (ever since the DOA intro really), but the dwarven Codex entries implies it was only a short time before the darkspawn began to overwhelm them. In fact the history of Orzammar says that the First Blight and the discovery of the Archdemon was the reason. Also the Codex Entry on the Blight says that the dwarves were wiped out within a few decades during the First Blight.

The Memories hold no explanations for the coming of the darkspawn, only questions. At first, they were rumors, noises in the Deep Roads, a lost traveler here and there. The Warrior Caste sent men to patrol the road, and thought the matter settled. We did not know that while we searched for them, they were engaged in a search of their own.


Sleeping deep in the Stone itself was the archdemon. They found him, and awakened him, and the Blight began.


The darkspawn poured out of the Deep Roads like smoke, then, and the Warrior Caste struggled to hold them back. Countless thaigs were lost in that first Blight. But, as ever, in the worst moments of our need, a Paragon arose. Paragon Aeducan led the defenses of Orzammar, and the dark horde was beaten back.

The cost of victory, however, was great. Much of the Deep Roads were sealed to hold back the darkspawn, cutting off thaigs and even whole cities forever.

--"Orzammar as a Kingdom," as told by Shaper Czibor



The dwarves faced far greater hordes than the humans as the darkspawn
challenged them for control of the underground. Despite the might and
technology the dwarves brought to bear, the savage darkspawn tore
through them, first destroying the more remote thaigs
before swallowing up entire kingdoms. Think of it: an entire
civilization lost in the space of decades. Compared to the near-genocide
that the dwarves faced, what we humans call the First Blight must have
seemed a mere skirmish to them. Against the darkspawn, the dwarven lands
have always taken on the brunt of the fighting and the majority of the
sacrifices.


- Codex Entry: The First Blight: Chapter 3

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 12 août 2011 - 04:53 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I wasn't disputing that the Dwarves were the first to encoutner Darkspawn. I was disputing that the Dwarves first encoutnering Darkspawn, ruled out the possibility that the Magisters were the first Darkspawn.