127 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I think that Andraste herself wasn't a fraud, in that her faith in being blessed by the Maker was sincere. However, I doubt that it was really the Maker who called her; I suspect it was Fen'Harel, i.e. Flemeth.

Also that Andraste is the Dumat OGB.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I believe the Temple was built by the original Disciples of Andraste, who fled from Tevinter.

It's odd how the Dwarves (and spirits of the Fade) can hear the lyrium sing to them and can sense it. The Dwarves are connected to Lyrium and Magic much more than people think. The clues are there, but they're scattered all over the place.

I don't get this impression that Andraste's followers built this ruin.  One of the spirit disciples said they found the ruin and decided this was a good spot for her ashes to be placed.  So she could forever gaze into the Maker's sky. I'm thinking that ruin was built by the Imperium a very long time ago.  The same with Ostagar, and the Elven ruins in the Brecillan Forest.  I do believe that the disciples did alter the ruin with the traps and the test of faith gauntlet.

I do think the Maker exists and I do believe that Andraste was a mage.  I don't believe that the Chantry has the full details and the complete story.  I do believe her real story was altered when the chantry was first formed.    I think Meredith's story points to this.  Perhaps the first emperor of Orlais had a family member who turned into a abomination just like Meredith's sister and decided that mages couldn't be trusted on their own. 

I also think that Andraste could have been a shapeshifter mage like Flemeth and Morrigan.  Dragons do rain fire down from the sky.  This would also make sense on her real life husband betraying her because she had these abilities and the people worshipped her because of them, while her husband was on the ground doing the hard gritty work.  This would also explain the people in Haven which was obvious they followed the ashes out of the Imperium and worshipped the dragon at the urn.

A repeating theme in this game could be reincarnation.  To much of the lore that we pick up can mirror the life of Flemeth herself and Andraste. 

I'd come closer to saying the Maker is also a mage.  He gave Andraste his powers which one of the spirits says.  I got the impression fireballs were raining down on the Imperium which created a famine across the land with the land being burned up.   I think this is the spirit whose answer is hunger. 

When killing the High Dragon at the Urn this could be the reason that the ashes are replenished.  The lore states that dragons allow others to feed off of their blood, and I'd assume this would go for a dragon that is killed and their bodies burned would created a source to replenish the ashes.  The ashes could be  some kind of powder or dust that the Maker uses, or it could be nothing more than lyrium sand or dust.  This would coinside with what Oghren says.  

Edit for more thoughts.
 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 12 août 2011 - 05:38 .

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think that Andraste herself wasn't a fraud, in that her faith in being blessed by the Maker was sincere. However, I doubt that it was really the Maker who called her; I suspect it was Fen'Harel, i.e. Flemeth.

Also that Andraste is the Dumat OGB.

Wow, long time no see.  Welcome back.  

Edit:  Oh, and I doubt anyone called her.  Whether repentant for her last lives or not, it'd be hard to believe she didn't know she was an OGB.  The Maker thing is just a better story she can tell people for her superpowers.

Modifié par Rifneno, 12 août 2011 - 05:33 .

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think that Andraste herself wasn't a fraud, in that her faith in being blessed by the Maker was sincere. However, I doubt that it was really the Maker who called her; I suspect it was Fen'Harel, i.e. Flemeth.

Also that Andraste is the Dumat OGB.

Wow, long time no see.  Welcome back.  

Edit:  Oh, and I doubt anyone called her.  Whether repentant for her last lives or not, it'd be hard to believe she didn't know she was an OGB.  The Maker thing is just a better story she can tell people for her superpowers.

Maybe, but...

I suspect that the Old Gods and the Forgotten Ones are the same beings. The Chantry and Dalish myths on the subject are uncannily similar. I also believe that the Old Gods founded the Tevinter Imperium specifically to destroy Arlathan, and that Andraste was Fen'Harel's retribution. Presumably he regretted the full effect of his actions.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 août 2011 - 05:41 .

[Darius Vir]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe, but...

I suspect that the Old Gods and the Forgotten Ones are the same beings. The Chantry and Dalish myths on the subject are uncannily similar. I also believe that the Old Gods founded the Tevinter Imperium specifically to destroy Arlathan, and that Andraste was Fen'Harel's retribution. Presumably he regretted the full effect of his actions.

Wow....I like!

It really does seem like the Old Gods are in the Tevinters' heads from the very beginning. 

[darkrose]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think that Andraste herself wasn't a fraud, in that her faith in being blessed by the Maker was sincere. However, I doubt that it was really the Maker who called her; I suspect it was Fen'Harel, i.e. Flemeth.

Also that Andraste is the Dumat OGB.

I was thinking about this recently, and I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Flemeth is totally Fen'Harel, and that the Old Gods are the Forgotten Ones of the elven pantheon.

Of course, that raises the question: who--and where--are the Creators? 

[esper]

Why must the elven faith be real. I would rather that we never gets the answer to if there is a deity.

[Mr.House]

She was just a powerful mage. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Xilizhra]

darkrose wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think that Andraste herself wasn't a fraud, in that her faith in being blessed by the Maker was sincere. However, I doubt that it was really the Maker who called her; I suspect it was Fen'Harel, i.e. Flemeth.

Also that Andraste is the Dumat OGB.

I was thinking about this recently, and I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Flemeth is totally Fen'Harel, and that the Old Gods are the Forgotten Ones of the elven pantheon.

Of course, that raises the question: who--and where--are the Creators? 

Hard to say...

I do begin to believe that the Stone is real, at least in a way. I suspect that lyrium contains the souls of dwarves, who sort of sing in some kind of harmonious hive mind. I also believe that the idol was made from actively fusing the souls of every dwarf in the primeval thaig together, which resulted in it having more of a conscious mind than most lyrium, but also making its song insanity-inducing.
How any of this relates to the Creators, I'm not yet sure of, as we haven't gone to the heavens... unless they mean the Fade by that.

As for the Dalish faith being real, we already know that some gods are quite real: the Old Gods. The Forgotten Ones and Creators seem to be more on their level rather than the monotheistic power of the Maker.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think that Andraste herself wasn't a fraud, in that her faith in being blessed by the Maker was sincere. However, I doubt that it was really the Maker who called her; I suspect it was Fen'Harel, i.e. Flemeth.

Also that Andraste is the Dumat OGB.

Nice to see you back here again Xilizhra

[Xilizhra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think that Andraste herself wasn't a fraud, in that her faith in being blessed by the Maker was sincere. However, I doubt that it was really the Maker who called her; I suspect it was Fen'Harel, i.e. Flemeth.

Also that Andraste is the Dumat OGB.

Nice to see you back here again Xilizhra

The pleasure's all mine.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

esper wrote...

Why must the elven faith be real. I would rather that we never gets the answer to if there is a deity.

You do realize in the lore that the elves once ruled all of the Thedas until the rise of the Tevinter Imperium.  The elves have been around longer than anybody in just Thedas itself.  The humans and qunari are the ones who came to Thedas from other lands across the ocean. 

I'm guessing the dwarves have always lived under the land. 

The lore of the dalish clearly indicates that there was a war among the gods, and one god walked among both tricking both sides.   You could also say this was the Maker the one who walked among both sides. 

I see all races talking about the same Gods they all just use different names to discribe the same gods over and over. 

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I wasn't disputing that the Dwarves were the first to encoutner Darkspawn. I was disputing that the Dwarves first encoutnering Darkspawn, ruled out the possibility that the Magisters were the first Darkspawn.

Assuming that there were indeed 5 magisters who stormed the Black City, then it doesn't make much sense. They are all the first Awakened Darkspawn, which means that they can't hear the call of the Old Gods. That's why the Architect is able to hold dominion over his mindless Darkspawn kin. They fear him because of it (as the wiki says).

Second, even 5 Magisters wouldn't be able to dig through the earth to find an Old God from when they were cast out to when they found an Old God. A mage cannot overuse his mana, lest he come near death.

Third, I highly doubt the Awakened Magister Darkspawn know how to create broodmothers. The Architect, if he is a Magister like I believe, seemed to think that his Joining would work on The Mother. And she is a Ghoul, not a Darkspawn.

Fourth, if your theory holds true, why would the Magisters seek out the Gods who betrayed them?

As it stands, we've only been given enough information to definitely say the Chant has a single, solitary grain of truth to it. That truth is that the Magisters did attempt to invade the Black City (I doubt it was ever Golden). And there is still more evidence to tie the Dwarves to the emergence of the Darkspawn.

[TEWR]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

esper wrote...

Why must the elven faith be real. I would rather that we never gets the answer to if there is a deity.

You do realize in the lore that the elves once ruled all of the Thedas until the rise of the Tevinter Imperium.  The elves have been around longer than anybody in just Thedas itself.  The humans and qunari are the ones who came to Thedas from other lands across the ocean. 

I'm guessing the dwarves have always lived under the land. 

The lore of the dalish clearly indicates that there was a war among the gods, and one god walked among both tricking both sides.   You could also say this was the Maker the one who walked among both sides. 

I see all races talking about the same Gods they all just use different names to discribe the same gods over and over. 

The problem I have with the Flemeth-Fen'Harel theory deals with one line of Flemeth's.

Considering what the world has done to me, I have done more than enough.

What did the world do to Fen'Harel? Aside from a tale where a dog bit him, I don't think the world did anything to him.

What did the world do to Andraste? Betrayed the elves she gave land to, killed her, warped her teachings, waged wars in her name, etc.

[DarkDragon777]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

esper wrote...

Why must the elven faith be real. I would rather that we never gets the answer to if there is a deity.

You do realize in the lore that the elves once ruled all of the Thedas until the rise of the Tevinter Imperium.  The elves have been around longer than anybody in just Thedas itself.  The humans and qunari are the ones who came to Thedas from other lands across the ocean. 

I'm guessing the dwarves have always lived under the land. 

The lore of the dalish clearly indicates that there was a war among the gods, and one god walked among both tricking both sides.   You could also say this was the Maker the one who walked among both sides. 

I see all races talking about the same Gods they all just use different names to discribe the same gods over and over. 

The problem I have with the Flemeth-Fen'Harel theory deals with one line of Flemeth's.

Considering what the world has done to me, I have done more than enough.

What did the world do to Fen'Harel? Aside from a tale where a dog bit him, I don't think the world did anything to him.

What did the world do to Andraste? Betrayed the elves she gave land to, killed her, warped her teachings, waged wars in her name, etc.

We don't know the full story of Fen'Harel; we only have a little on "it" And in response to the question, yes, I do believe Andraste is a fraud. I'm more interested in the elven gods..

[Xilizhra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

esper wrote...

Why must the elven faith be real. I would rather that we never gets the answer to if there is a deity.

You do realize in the lore that the elves once ruled all of the Thedas until the rise of the Tevinter Imperium.  The elves have been around longer than anybody in just Thedas itself.  The humans and qunari are the ones who came to Thedas from other lands across the ocean. 

I'm guessing the dwarves have always lived under the land. 

The lore of the dalish clearly indicates that there was a war among the gods, and one god walked among both tricking both sides.   You could also say this was the Maker the one who walked among both sides. 

I see all races talking about the same Gods they all just use different names to discribe the same gods over and over. 

The problem I have with the Flemeth-Fen'Harel theory deals with one line of Flemeth's.

Considering what the world has done to me, I have done more than enough.

What did the world do to Fen'Harel? Aside from a tale where a dog bit him, I don't think the world did anything to him.

What did the world do to Andraste? Betrayed the elves she gave land to, killed her, warped her teachings, waged wars in her name, etc.

IIRC, legends of Flemeth predate Andraste.

I mostly gathered my theories about her lines with "Regret is something I know well." Where did this line come from?

[esper]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

esper wrote...

Why must the elven faith be real. I would rather that we never gets the answer to if there is a deity.

You do realize in the lore that the elves once ruled all of the Thedas until the rise of the Tevinter Imperium.  The elves have been around longer than anybody in just Thedas itself.  The humans and qunari are the ones who came to Thedas from other lands across the ocean. 

I'm guessing the dwarves have always lived under the land. 

The lore of the dalish clearly indicates that there was a war among the gods, and one god walked among both tricking both sides.   You could also say this was the Maker the one who walked among both sides. 

I see all races talking about the same Gods they all just use different names to discribe the same gods over and over. 

But I don't want the answer to those questions. It would not be religion if we got definite answers.
Andraste - fine let's get some answers about her because she was a living being. The old god... well they are dragons so the question is if they are gods at all or just extremely intelligent beings.
But I don't want to know if the elves gods are real, I don't want to know if the Maker is real - I lean towards I hope not on the last one, but I don't want to know. It would kill a large part of the charm with the world for me, if we suddenly had answers to the god question, and I certainly don't suddenly wants all the religions to connect. 

As for Andraste - I lean towards her being a mage, blood mage or possible possessed mage. I could guess Flemeth too if I had to, but I would rather led Bioware deal with Flemeth - no matter what they do with her they are bound to dissapoint someone.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

esper wrote...

Why must the elven faith be real. I would rather that we never gets the answer to if there is a deity.

You do realize in the lore that the elves once ruled all of the Thedas until the rise of the Tevinter Imperium.  The elves have been around longer than anybody in just Thedas itself.  The humans and qunari are the ones who came to Thedas from other lands across the ocean. 

I'm guessing the dwarves have always lived under the land. 

The lore of the dalish clearly indicates that there was a war among the gods, and one god walked among both tricking both sides.   You could also say this was the Maker the one who walked among both sides. 

I see all races talking about the same Gods they all just use different names to discribe the same gods over and over. 

The problem I have with the Flemeth-Fen'Harel theory deals with one line of Flemeth's.

Considering what the world has done to me, I have done more than enough.

What did the world do to Fen'Harel? Aside from a tale where a dog bit him, I don't think the world did anything to him.

What did the world do to Andraste? Betrayed the elves she gave land to, killed her, warped her teachings, waged wars in her name, etc.

IIRC, legends of Flemeth predate Andraste.

I mostly gathered my theories about her lines with "Regret is something I know well." Where did this line come from?

Actually, I think the legends of Flemeth were after the Chantry was formed.

And you get that line in DAO when talking to her after she gives you Morrigan.

Though I do like Filament's theory. What if Flemeth is the Razikale OGB, who was Andraste, who at some point merged with Fen'Harel?



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[ElvaliaRavenHart]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I wasn't disputing that the Dwarves were the first to encoutner Darkspawn. I was disputing that the Dwarves first encoutnering Darkspawn, ruled out the possibility that the Magisters were the first Darkspawn.

Assuming that there were indeed 5 magisters who stormed the Black City, then it doesn't make much sense. They are all the first Awakened Darkspawn, which means that they can't hear the call of the Old Gods. That's why the Architect is able to hold dominion over his mindless Darkspawn kin. They fear him because of it (as the wiki says).

Second, even 5 Magisters wouldn't be able to dig through the earth to find an Old God from when they were cast out to when they found an Old God. A mage cannot overuse his mana, lest he come near death.

Third, I highly doubt the Awakened Magister Darkspawn know how to create broodmothers. The Architect, if he is a Magister like I believe, seemed to think that his Joining would work on The Mother. And she is a Ghoul, not a Darkspawn.

Fourth, if your theory holds true, why would the Magisters seek out the Gods who betrayed them?

As it stands, we've only been given enough information to definitely say the Chant has a single, solitary grain of truth to it. That truth is that the Magisters did attempt to invade the Black City (I doubt it was ever Golden). And there is still more evidence to tie the Dwarves to the emergence of the Darkspawn.

I'm not sure I agree with you on The Mother being a ghoul.  I've had the strange thought what if the Mother was actually Morrigan changed due to being pregnant with the soul of an old god inside her, (also my characters did the DR so this is where I'm coming from).    We do find Morrigan in the same location in WH and the mirror is beyond where we kill the mother.  I just found the whole thing actually to creepy and to much of a coincidence.   What if the Architect was actually trying to stop her from birthing and Old God?  He is known to lie.

Or the mother was actually Flemeth giving birth to the old god under ground aka dragon form and the children where her protectors while she was dug in so to speak.  I also believe all male wardens actually sleep with Flemeth and not Morrigan in the DR.   There was a cartoon script of Morrigan and Flemeth awhile ago.  I think when DA2 was in development.  I read that whole cartoon.  Where they trap Templars. 

I've got a screen shot of Morrigan standing off in the corner and a semi naked Morrigan is walking to the bed.  I got this screenshot by accident, thanks to my kitty jumping on my desk while I was taking this shot.  There are two Morrigans in the room, not one.  I also got a strange screen shot making Alistair King and me being his queen.  There is a woman standing behind him and she is hidden.  It's really hard to see her.  It's hard to get a shot of her but I got enough of one that I don't believe this was a guard.  She also isn't an elf either because at first I thought she might have been Fiona.  I do believe that Alistair knows who his real mother is and that she wasn't a serving wench at Redcliffe Castle. 

Also for farfetched ideas I've also had the thought what if the darkspawn were actually created by the Makers first children?  This has also occurred to me.  We do know that the darkspawn do have a connection with the fade.  The Maker did turn away from this first children according to the chant of light.  The reason for this was due to his First Childen couldn't create in the manner in which he instructed them to do.  Which is somethng that I find very puzzling why would he turn away from them over that unless they created the darkspawn?   The darkspawn seem to be against all humanity. 

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ Ethereal.

I disagree with you here. Morrigan tells you in camp when you ask her about her shape shifting abilities this is magic that pre-dates the chantry and Andraste. It is passed down from generation to generation. I'd come closer to saying this is magic out of Rivain or Tevinter, directly from the dragons themselves. Something that I found puzzling is the fact that Morrigan even tells a mage warden it is a spell that takes alot of will. She can't teach this to you because you've been taught a different path. I didn't believe her being a mage. That didn't make any sense to my mage characters. So I conclude to be Morrigan or Flemeth you have to be born a dragon with human shape shifting abilities to transform into a dragon. The dragon form is your true form. Morrigan also states when she asks you to kill Flemeth and discussing the information out of the tomes, Morrigan isn't certain if Flemeth needs a son or daughter or that it even matters.

I also agree that Flemeth could very well be the result of the DR being done and she is the product of the DR from the first blight.

[Kronas]

this is all very interesting , I think sandal is the key in both DA-O and DA-II he is an enchanter but he also kills large amounts of darkspawn by him self in DA-O the final onslot in DA-II the deep roads and templer hall , in DA-II deep roads his responces to Hawke are boom and indicating his enchantment and not enchantment indicating a new level of magic that dwarf realy have, so andraste as a dwarf or human dwarf hybred would make sence

[Sepewrath]

I would say odds are she was just a charismatic opportunist, she doesn't even need to have been a mage. She talked a good game, saying what people wanted to hear and needed to hear, with impeccable timing.

[TEWR]

So..... she's Leliana?

[Sepewrath]

Well Leliana didn't say anything people needed and definitely not something they wanted to hear. I would say she's more Hitler, just not without all the evil.