127 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I see no reason why Morrigan would lie about it.

"She turned into a giant bird"
*Flemeth was actually a dragon*
"Can you go kill my mother?"
*fails to tell you that Flemeth can morph into a dragon*


REALLY doesn't benefit her to withhold that information.

Morrigan: Would you kill my frail old mother who can transform into a giant bird?
Warden: Sure, what the hell? *yelling back at the camp* Poultry for dinner tonight.

----------

Morrigan: Would you kill my frail old mother who can transform into a high dragon?
Warden: Are you sodding crazy?!

 

Considering it would bring up an issue of trust later on, I would at least expect her to mention it. Especially since the Warden would just probably stare and drop their weapons when they do find out at Flemeth's hut.

Of course, it's a moot point if you've already slain one High Dragon and know how they fight.

Were I the Warden though, I'd summon an army of bears, wolves, spiders, and gorillas and ride into glorious battle with them.

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

 

I don't think I'll ever forget the first time I went to kill Flemeth and she turned into a dragon.  I actually said s***, to my pc when she did that.  I was expecting a whopper of a mage fight.

I pretty much said "Well **** me twice sideways with a cactus." and expected a really tough fight.

Didn't get what I expected. Just a copy and paste boss fight.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I would think that HighDragon!Flemeth is only unveiled under certain circumstances:

- being threatened by a Warden and other powerful party members
- having a craving for tasty crunchy Darkspawn (who are threatening a hero-in-the-making)

It's an ace up the sleeve.

I guess since Flemeth just told us why she uses her Dragon form, we must take it as truth!


In all seriousness, I just don't think she used her High Dragon form to save the Warden. Not when Morrigan would've also had to have been shapeshifted as well and flying with her, or riding on top of Flemeth.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 août 2011 - 03:11 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ Rifneno

LMAO at poultry for dinner.

Even Shale had a bit of fight killing that plucky bird.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 13 août 2011 - 03:13 .

[whykikyouwhy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I would think that HighDragon!Flemeth is only unveiled under certain circumstances:

- being threatened by a Warden and other powerful party members
- having a craving for tasty crunchy Darkspawn (who are threatening a hero-in-the-making)

It's an ace up the sleeve.

I guess since Flemeth just told us why she uses her Dragon form, we must take it as truth!


In all seriousness, I just don't think she used her High Dragon form to save the Warden. Not when Morrigan would've also had to have been shapeshifted as well and flying with her, or riding on top of Flemeth.

I was referring to Hawke with point #2.

But did Morrigan ever say that she was with Flemeth for the Warden's rescue? I don't recall the exact conversation (and need to go look it up, clearly) but I thought she merely said that her mother saved the Warden and Alistair. No details were given.

[TEWR]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I would think that HighDragon!Flemeth is only unveiled under certain circumstances:

- being threatened by a Warden and other powerful party members
- having a craving for tasty crunchy Darkspawn (who are threatening a hero-in-the-making)

It's an ace up the sleeve.

I guess since Flemeth just told us why she uses her Dragon form, we must take it as truth!


In all seriousness, I just don't think she used her High Dragon form to save the Warden. Not when Morrigan would've also had to have been shapeshifted as well and flying with her, or riding on top of Flemeth.

I was referring to Hawke with point #2.

But did Morrigan ever say that she was with Flemeth for the Warden's rescue? I don't recall the exact conversation (and need to go look it up, clearly) but I thought she merely said that her mother saved the Warden and Alistair. No details were given.

Well, I think your second point can work for both Hawke and the Warden, as they were both heroes-in-the-making.

though, I still find it hard to believe that she would morph into a dragon form and Morrigan would withhold this information deliberately

And from her dialogue I'm pretty sure she was there. She says she had a good view of the battlefield. With Ostagar completely taken over by the Darkspawn, I assume she was overhead when she saw the battlefield.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 août 2011 - 03:21 .

[Rifneno]

Flemeth seems to like the dragon form. She didn't need to use it to kill a few newbie darkspawn, and she certainly didn't need to use it to leave Sundermount. Even if she had to fly out for some reason, why not use her bird form then? I find it pretty difficult to believe Morrigan didn't know she could do that after spending her whole life with her being chased by templars.

[Rifneno]

Oh, I forgot, the OP...

Andraste. She was a leader everyone would follow into hell itself. Why does that sound vaguely familiar?

[Xilizhra]

If that's the case, she really dropped the ball with Maferath.

[TEWR]

I'm of the opinion that she was not only the Razikale OGB (Flemeth), but that she was also a Somniari Blood Mage as well.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

If that's the case, she really dropped the ball with Maferath.

That's the ironic part.  The one person she didn't think she needed to mind control, that was controlled by actual love, fell prey to actual douchebaggery.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If that's the case, she really dropped the ball with Maferath.

That's the ironic part.  The one person she didn't think she needed to mind control, that was controlled by actual love, fell prey to actual douchebaggery.

I don't see why she'd need blood magic, though. The magisters were douchebags, the gods were turning hostile, and Andraste offered a change.

[TEWR]

to prove a point would be my guess. Or for the ironic lulz, because she's got a twisted sense of humor.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

to prove a point would be my guess. Or for the ironic lulz, because she's got a twisted sense of humor.

The biggest clue for me was the archon "suddenly repenting" and ending her suffering when she's burning at the stake.

[Anyroad2]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

to prove a point would be my guess. Or for the ironic lulz, because she's got a twisted sense of humor.

The biggest clue for me was the archon "suddenly repenting" and ending her suffering when she's burning at the stake.

If Andraste was capable of mass blood magic-ing people... dont you think she would have used that power to not be captured and burned at the stake?

Also... Blood Magic is pretty recognizable. On top of it being pretty easy to spot, it was also used by their enemies, the Tevinter Imperium and their Mages.

Doesnt make sense to me.

[LobselVith8]

Anyroad2 wrote...

If Andraste was capable of mass blood magic-ing people... dont you think she would have used that power to not be captured and burned at the stake?

Also... Blood Magic is pretty recognizable. On top of it being pretty easy to spot, it was also used by their enemies, the Tevinter Imperium and their Mages.

Doesnt make sense to me.

It was the Tevinter Imperium who captured Andraste, so that would explain why her "powers" couldn't save her (which is a question that The Warden can pose to Leliana when she recounts the demise of Andraste, since the "powers" mentioned in the accounts of Andraste seem to have failed her when she was captured by Tevinter).

[Anyroad2]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It was the Tevinter Imperium who captured Andraste, so that would explain why her "powers" couldn't save her (which is a question that The Warden can pose to Leliana when she recounts the demise of Andraste, since the "powers" mentioned in the accounts of Andraste seem to have failed her when she was captured by Tevinter).

Did the Imperium have a means of nullifying another blood mages power? I suppose that it is possible, we're able to learn Dispel and stuff afterall (though I'm not sure if that dispels the blood magic buff).

As for Andrastes loss of power at the stake... if she did lose her blood magic, then she couldn't have suddenly made Hessarian put her out of her missery, against his will which was a point brought up previously. Also... if she lost her power, she would have lost control over her followers. I'm guessing that they wouldnt still be as loyal to her if they were made to follow her via blood magic. In the game, blood mages can't permanently control others. Once the effect of the spell is over enemies return to their hostile stance.

This is a good discussion. Been eating these speculation threads up recently.

[Iakus]

I suspect that Andraste was not a fraud. But there's a lot more to her story than we've been told so far. What we have now is an incomplete, idealized, simplified version of "the truth" The whole truth is likely a lot grayer than the Chantry would like, a lot stranger than "Andraste was a mage" and is a lot more complicated than anyone suspects

[HighMoon]

I don't think Andy (that's going to be my nickname for her from now on) was a fraud. I just don't think she was anywhere near as holy/powerful/inspirational as the Chantry make her out to be. I think she was just an Average Jane who got lucky (in more ways than one).

[Ulicus]

Rifneno wrote...

Oh, I forgot, the OP...

Andraste. She was a leader everyone would follow into hell itself. Why does that sound vaguely familiar?

Because she's the Jedi Exile, obviously.

iakus wrote...

I suspect that Andraste was not a fraud. But there's a lot more to her story than we've been told so far. What we have now is an incomplete, idealized, simplified version of "the truth" The whole truth is likely a lot grayer than the Chantry would like, a lot stranger than "Andraste was a mage" and is a lot more complicated than anyone suspects

I imagine this is the case, yes.

Modifié par Ulicus, 13 août 2011 - 10:27 .

[Rifneno]

Anyroad2 wrote...

If Andraste was capable of mass blood magic-ing people... dont you think she would have used that power to not be captured and burned at the stake?

Also... Blood Magic is pretty recognizable. On top of it being pretty easy to spot, it was also used by their enemies, the Tevinter Imperium and their Mages.

Doesnt make sense to me.

Who's to say she didn't mean to get captured and "killed?" A lot of people think Flemeth is Andraste and the Warden "kills" her too. Blood magic isn't always very obvious. Look at Idunna (who gave me that idea). She puts the "lay off her, Hawke, it's better on her" idea in companion's minds and the only one who seems to notice something is wrong is Fenris. Even he's not sure, he only realizes when Hawke asks what's wrong with him and he hesitates before saying "I... don't know. Be careful."

Anyway, it was just a thought. I'm much more confident in the Dumat OGB idea. Not that they're mutually exclusive.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Andraste was just a normal human being, who freed a bunch of people and made an invincible Imperium shake their boots in terror. She has since then, over time, been attributed different characteristics to make her more heroic and mythical. Just like heroes and mythological characters work in our world.

[dragonflight288]

If I may use a real life allegory of Alexander the Great. He completely and utterly idealized Achilles from Homer's The Iliad to the point that he was terrified that his father would conquer everyone and he would get absolutely no glory in battle, because he wanted to be like Achilles in every way.

That idealism led Alexander to many great victories, but he tended to forget many other things about Achilles.

The first is that Achilles was a man of mercy. The only time he became a force of unstoppable death was when his friend Patroclus was killed.

The second was that Achilles actually wished the war to end so he could go home, at one point.

What does this have to do with Andraste?

The Chantry idealizes her to the point that they see only the most holy attributes. They sing the Chant of Light, written by Andraste, constantly in the hope of converting the world and returning the Maker's sight to them.

But they form their own opinions about Andraste. They edited the Chant of Light when it came to Shartan and the elves because it was considered too heretical. In other words they took out some of what Andraste was teaching because they didn't agree with it or it didn't fit their ideas of what Andraste was teaching them.

They also use a lot of her words to give themselves far more power than they need. "Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him" does not say "Mages are incredibly stupid nuclear bombs and need to be locked up"

Granted, I can see illiterate and superstitious peasants having a bad crop that year, then discover a child is a mage so a mob forms and kills the child out of a petty hate and fear of magic, so until things improve, mages do need a place too not only study magic but also to be kept safe from the mobs.

Meredith, I'm looking at you. Don't appease the mobs. Are you listening to me?!?

The Chantry and its followers are quite similar to Alexander the Great in that they take someone they idolize to the point of stupidity, and forget about the attributes that don't agree with their own opinions.

[Kronas]

Flemeth knew morrigan would send the warden to kill her so she decided to collect on an old debt with the dalish when she came across hawke a chance meeting ( she even said so ) she wanted morrigan to think she was dead , and morrigan even said she did'nt beleave she'd truly be dead even then ( in the wardens camp) Oh ! anyone else think the dalish in DAII need to eat alot!! more I mean please if they turned sideways they could hide behinde a blade of grass

[TEWR]

One thing I found odd about Flemeth is that she mentions singing a lot.

"So, lovely Morrigan has at last found someone willing to dance to her tune."

"I should dance to yours instead?"

"Why dance at all? Why not sing?"


Now, it's most likely nothing, but considering I subscribe to the idea that she's the Razikale OGB who is Andraste, I find it funny.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

One thing I found odd about Flemeth is that she mentions singing a lot.

"So, lovely Morrigan has at last found someone willing to dance to her tune."

"I should dance to yours instead?"

"Why dance at all? Why not sing?"


Now, it's most likely nothing, but considering I subscribe to the idea that she's the Razikale OGB who is Andraste, I find it funny.

Okay, but... is there anyone that's not Flemeth by this theory?  

[whykikyouwhy]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

One thing I found odd about Flemeth is that she mentions singing a lot.

"So, lovely Morrigan has at last found someone willing to dance to her tune."

"I should dance to yours instead?"

"Why dance at all? Why not sing?"


Now, it's most likely nothing, but considering I subscribe to the idea that she's the Razikale OGB who is Andraste, I find it funny.

Okay, but... is there anyone that's not Flemeth by this theory?  

Malvernis. Shale. Gamlen. None strike me as being singers.

But of course, Flemeth is everywhere.