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[T3H Fish]

 *Hopefully this is the right place to put this, since it mainly deals with story of the entire DA universe.

I've been browsing through the wiki and reading through the codexs, because there are just somethings from both games that leave this awful burning questions in mind and I thought I'd share my theories and see what other people think and alternative theories. So here I go, this will probably turn out very lengthy.

My first thought immediately falls to that DA:Origins must have some kind of 'canon' ending, because there are just some things that occur in DA:2 that just don't make sense, namely the ending of the game. For those that either didn't recruit Leliana, forced her to leave, or killed her, she magically shows up as a member of the Seekers regardless of her fate.This leads me to believe that 'canonly', Leliana accompanied the Warden throughout the entire journey and survived the Battle of Denerim. Secondly, it is also presumed in the ending that the Warden is still alive, even if the Warden you used for the import did not opt for Morrigan's ritual and saricifed themselves to slay the Archdemon. (Unless there's some sort of minor alternative to the dialogue that I have yet to see)

Continuing with this theory, out of all the Origin stories, the Human Mage one makes the most sense as the 'canon' Warden/Hero of Ferelden. The detail to the Amell family alone is a pretty large hint that the Amell Origin in DA: Origins is fairly significant. Of course an arguement could be made for the Mahariel (Dalish) Origin, since the clan in which you are from plays a significant role in the story-line and Merril turns into one of Hawke's companions.

My next theory falls with Flemeth and her actual identity. I assumed she was an Abomination because of Origins, but after playing DA2 and seeing her involvement, it opens up WAY too many questions that I hope will be answered in DA3. Judging from Merril's reaction to her appearance after the ritual, I'm fairly certain that Flemeth is connected to the Dalish Pantheon. Yet, the form she assumes in both Origins and DA2 is that of a dragon, which makes me think that she must have some connection to the Old Gods, perhaps even be an Old God herself. Which gives to my theory of this, I believe there's a connection between the Old God and the Dalish Pantheon. That being said, I am some-what certain that Flemeth is actually one of the already slain Archdemons, how this happened I couldn't begin to guess but it may have something to do with the ritual Morrigan conviently knows to save the Warden. It'd also explain how Flemeth knew that the Blight in Ferelden was a true Blight, even though the Arch Demon had yet to physically reveal itself. The only way she could really know that is if she has some connection to the Darkspawn themselves, but I could be missing something that provides an alternative explination to this.

This next one would pertain more to the romancing of Leliana, if you so chose to, but as long as she was a companion through all of Origins, then this would probably apply as well. Also involves when the Warden supposedly went missing. The timeline I'm using comes from the 'Ages' page on the Dragon Age wiki, so it may or not be somewhat accurate.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Ages

Going back to Leliana's Song, this is when she first encounters Dorothea (Revered Mother at the time) and she inspires the bard to change her ways and join the Chantry. I would have NO idea when this took place, but I dare a guess it happened sometime around or after 9:20 Dragon, since it seems to be elluded to that Orlais and Ferelden are no longer at war during Leliana's Song.

Fast forward a bit up to 9:34 Dragon, when roughly Act 2 ends and Act 3 begins in DA2. Between 9:34 Dragon and probably 9:36 Dragon, Hawke gets to meet King Alistair and Bann Teagan, if Alistair is king, regardless if he married Anora or not from your imported save. Towards the end of the conversation, Alistair mentions to Teagan that the Hero of Ferelden would be visiting Denerim. 9:34 Dragon is also when Revered Mother Dorothea is raised to the status of Divine Justina V. So the last known appearance of the Warden is within this time frame.

I assume at this point in the storyline, Leliana becomes an agent of the Divine. If romanced, I would assume Leliana and the Warden kept in contact up until this point. I believe Leliana comes to Kirkwall between 9:36 Dragon and 9:37 Dragon to warn Sebastian that Grand Cleric Elthenia needs to leave Kirkwall. When pressed about the Warden, she seems sad, but that could be just me. I think at this point, all contact with the Warden has ceased. Between then and 9:40 Dragon, Leliana joins the Seekers, probably shortly after the Mage-Templar War starts and at this point, none of the Warden's companions would know where they are, just as no one knows where Hawke has disappeared to. I suspect Flemeth's involvement goes a bit deeper than simply saving their lives... and of course there's always the question of the Eluvian that Morrigan found and fell/walked into (depending on player's decisions)

And completely random, Morrigan's child is between 8-7 years old

I'd really like to see what other people think and what you've come up with. I hope DA3 can shed some serious light on all this unanswered questions and mysteries. I'm just dying to know.

[TEWR]

Good post. You can find some of my speculations on the topics you've covered on various threads.


As for Leliana, her codex varies depending on what action you took. If you killed her, she did die, but something brought her back to life. Perhaps Flemeth, the Razikale OGB who is Andraste (I believe Dumat didn't lead the First Blight, but Razikale did)?

[T3H Fish]

That's part of what I don't get with the ending of DA2. If Leliana was killed, she shouldn't be there and yet there she is. I'm hoping it's not one of those cliche explanations where she's just resurrected just to fill in a plot hole. The Flemeth idea is interesting, but her interest only seemed to lie in Hawke and the Warden, like she knew something about them would be important later on.

[TEWR]

Well, everything about where Leliana died is odd. The Ashes have magical healing powers, Reavers are able to heal themselves because of the Dragon's blood, the lyrium in the mountain gives the Ashes their healing properties, supposedly the Maker watches over the Temple.

[Rifneno]

Leliana. That reminds me of a fun story I've been waiting for a chance to share. I tried downloading DAO on a new system using EA's Origin Downloader (name is a coincidence, it's used for tons of EA games). For reasons I'll never understand, the version they sent me defaulted to German. Before I fixed it to English, it showed a banner advertising various DLC's. Apparently "song" has a very ironic spelling in German. Plastered across the bottom of the screen was the artwork for Leliana's Song and the words, "Lelianas Lied."

[whykikyouwhy]

Ah Rifneno, you always bring such lovely gems to the table. So now we have some language discrepancies (or truths) to substantiate Sketch's odd statement about trusting storytellers.

I wonder what flavor of cake Thedas happens to be.

[TEWR]

Strawberry shortcake. Or pineapple upside down cake. Or.... dammit what's it called. It's a red cake, that much I know.

Bah, as long as it's a delicious tasting cake.

"I was told there would be cake. The cake is a lie." --- Sten.

[whykikyouwhy]

Red velvet. With cream cheese frosting. I guess if we are being led down into the labyrinth, we are being well fed. There are worse. Ways to go.

[TEWR]

That's the one. I love baking that type of cake. Is there ice cream too? Preferably cookies and cream ice cream.

[T3H Fish]

Red Velvet?

And the language discrepancy is very intriguing. She never says what happened between her and Marjolaine at the end, though I think it's safe to assume she let her live at the very least. Being a bard and all, it's not certain if she was telling the complete truth in the first place.

I would say the whole thing with Leliana's fate may have been a mistake on the writers part, but I don't think they'd make such a big plot hole like that. Which of course would go back to the theory that DA:Origins has some kind of 'canon' or 'true' ending to it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Don't you dare start using a german translation as proof of Lelianna not being truthful....

[T3H Fish]

I wouldn't do that, but Leliana did mask the truth in Origins when you do her personal quest and even then, the intro she does to Leliana's Song and then the fact how she ended things with Marjolaine is hidden. Also, her connection to Dorothea goes a lot further than I think is originally apparent, considering she becomes her Right hand soon after she's promoted to the status of Divine.

Modifié par T3H Fish, 12 août 2011 - 03:04 .

[BigEvil]

T3H Fish wrote...
Secondly, it is also presumed in the ending that the Warden is still alive, even if the Warden you used for the import did not opt for Morrigan's ritual and saricifed themselves to slay the Archdemon. (Unless there's some sort of minor alternative to the dialogue that I have yet to see)

Lot's of interesting points brought up but I just thought I'd mention something about this. Leliana refers to the Warden, but does not say the Hero of Ferelden (which is how our Warden from Origins is repeatedly referred to in DA2) so it does not rule out the Orleasian Warden from Awakening being the specific Grey Warden she is talking about in such situations as the ultimate sacrifice.

[whykikyouwhy]

In a realm of legends and lore, in a world where words contain power and song can be magic, "truth" may wind up being very subjective. We may be seeing things from a prism - one beam of light broken into bands of glorious color.

And now I want some d*mn cake.

[T3H Fish]

Ah, that would make sense. Though my question would be if the Orlesian Warden from Awakening is also included in the reference in the end, why would they also disappear? With Hawke and the Hero of Ferelden, the connection is their similar encounters with Flemeth, but what would be the connecting factor between Hawke's and the Orlesian Warden's disappearances.

[BigEvil]

But we don't know the reason for the disappearance or why they disappeared so there's no way of saying that the connection is Flemeth. It could just as easily be the connection to Awakened Darkspawn as the Warden Commander (Hero of Ferelden or otherwise) runs into the Architect and Hawke as per Legacy runs into Corypheus. Given the way Legacy left off it seems clear we'll see more of Corypheus so perhaps that is the connection for the disappearance.

Or it could be something entirely different, a new threat, or perhaps a very old one. Personally I think that Flemeth's lines on Sundermount about not hesitating to jump into the abyss are something to do with the disappearance. Merril informs us that the Forgotten Ones were trapped in the Abyss by Fen'Harel and it's my theory that one or more of them is attempting to break free and the Warden and the Champion are part of what will attempt to stop them. When you add in Leliana and her dream/vision from Origins about being surrounded and jumping into an abyss it starts to look rather interesting.

[Renessa]

"Lied" has no double meaning in German. It really just means "song". It is actually pronounced with a long "i", rhyming with "feet".

Just to stop any conspiracy theories. ;-)

[Rifneno]

T3H Fish wrote...

Red Velvet?

And the language discrepancy is very intriguing. She never says what happened between her and Marjolaine at the end, though I think it's safe to assume she let her live at the very least. Being a bard and all, it's not certain if she was telling the complete truth in the first place.

I would say the whole thing with Leliana's fate may have been a mistake on the writers part, but I don't think they'd make such a big plot hole like that. Which of course would go back to the theory that DA:Origins has some kind of 'canon' or 'true' ending to it.

The Leliana's Song DLC plays out quite a bit differently than the tale she tells the Warden. In Darkspawn Chronicles, her codex notes rumors that she's sleeping with Alistair. Since there's not even a hint of anything between them in the regular game, that implies she's trying to get close to whoever the lead warden is. Speaking of the original game, when you ask her if she was sent to spy on you, she doesn't even actually deny it. She plays it off with sarcasm, asking who would want to spy on you. She also talks about, as a bard, finding out who her target's "perfect woman" is and becoming her. ... And then lets you mold her personality on a whim. One of her former companions shows up in DA2 and says to never trust storytellers. Marjolaine even warns the Warden that Leliana is playing him/her. And of course, there's the biggest red flag, her Seeker's Pendant in DAO.

So either she was playing the Warden, or all that's a coincidence and God really talks to her through plants.

...

Yeah, she's full of crap.

[Rifneno]

Renessa wrote...

"Lied" has no double meaning in German. It really just means "song". It is actually pronounced with a long "i", rhyming with "feet".

Just to stop any conspiracy theories. ;-)

I can see Emp not getting ironic humor, but I'm surprised anyone else missed it.  It wasn't proof of her lying, it's amusing because we already know she was lying.

[T3H Fish]

BigEvil wrote...

But we don't know the reason for the disappearance or why they disappeared so there's no way of saying that the connection is Flemeth. It could just as easily be the connection to Awakened Darkspawn as the Warden Commander (Hero of Ferelden or otherwise) runs into the Architect and Hawke as per Legacy runs into Corypheus. Given the way Legacy left off it seems clear we'll see more of Corypheus so perhaps that is the connection for the disappearance.

Or it could be something entirely different, a new threat, or perhaps a very old one. Personally I think that Flemeth's lines on Sundermount about not hesitating to jump into the abyss are something to do with the disappearance. Merril informs us that the Forgotten Ones were trapped in the Abyss by Fen'Harel and it's my theory that one or more of them is attempting to break free and the Warden and the Champion are part of what will attempt to stop them. When you add in Leliana and her dream/vision from Origins about being surrounded and jumping into an abyss it starts to look rather interesting.

I have yet to play Legacy, so I did not know that until know. I always found the Architect interesting because how he came to be is a complete mystery. That is a very interesting thought... though I always thought Flemeth's parting words on Sundermount were in reference to the Mage-Templar War that breaks out 9 years later, being that tensions between the Chantry and the Circles was steadily increasing... but that is a very interesting alternative.

And since you brought up the Forgotten Ones, that sparks a very interesting idea about Flemeth. My original theory was the fact that the Old Gods/Archdemons were connected to the Dalish Pantheon, solely judging off Merril's reaction to her and how the Dalish almost seem to revere her, but now that you've brought that up and I remember the dialogue a bit better, Flemeth asked Merril if she knew who she was and not be so quick to bow to her. So... maybe the Old Gods are the Forgotten Ones rising once more. Keeper Marethari also seemed to be a little afraid when she talks breifly about Asha'bellanar, as the Dalish call her.

[T3H Fish]

Rifneno wrote...

T3H Fish wrote...

Red Velvet?

And the language discrepancy is very intriguing. She never says what happened between her and Marjolaine at the end, though I think it's safe to assume she let her live at the very least. Being a bard and all, it's not certain if she was telling the complete truth in the first place.

I would say the whole thing with Leliana's fate may have been a mistake on the writers part, but I don't think they'd make such a big plot hole like that. Which of course would go back to the theory that DA:Origins has some kind of 'canon' or 'true' ending to it.

The Leliana's Song DLC plays out quite a bit differently than the tale she tells the Warden. In Darkspawn Chronicles, her codex notes rumors that she's sleeping with Alistair. Since there's not even a hint of anything between them in the regular game, that implies she's trying to get close to whoever the lead warden is. Speaking of the original game, when you ask her if she was sent to spy on you, she doesn't even actually deny it. She plays it off with sarcasm, asking who would want to spy on you. She also talks about, as a bard, finding out who her target's "perfect woman" is and becoming her. ... And then lets you mold her personality on a whim. One of her former companions shows up in DA2 and says to never trust storytellers. Marjolaine even warns the Warden that Leliana is playing him/her. And of course, there's the biggest red flag, her Seeker's Pendant in DAO.

So either she was playing the Warden, or all that's a coincidence and God really talks to her through plants.

...

Yeah, she's full of crap.

Hmmm, if that is true, then it would lead to the idea that Leliana became Dorothea's agent prior to the events of Origins. Maybe Dorothea was trying to set herself up to become the next Divine through the course of Origins and DA2... but according to Bethany, Leliana had been in Lothering long enough for her to clearly remember the crafty bard. The big question to that would be why was she in Ferelden in the first place and why be in Lothering?

[TEWR]

Yea I have to say that it's a bit of a stretch. But it is kinda funny considering Leliana was once a bard. Maybe her story was a lie, but who knows.

[Herr Uhl]

Rifneno wrote...

The Leliana's Song DLC plays out quite a bit differently than the tale she tells the Warden. In Darkspawn Chronicles, her codex notes rumors that she's sleeping with Alistair. Since there's not even a hint of anything between them in the regular game, that implies she's trying to get close to whoever the lead warden is.

I don't remember her trying to seduce anyone without a prompt.

[TEWR]

I'd be laughing if Bioware had the Warden pull an Allan Quatermain from The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 août 2011 - 03:52 .

[Rifneno]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Leliana's Song DLC plays out quite a bit differently than the tale she tells the Warden. In Darkspawn Chronicles, her codex notes rumors that she's sleeping with Alistair. Since there's not even a hint of anything between them in the regular game, that implies she's trying to get close to whoever the lead warden is.

I don't remember her trying to seduce anyone without a prompt.

Well she wasn't Zevran, but I do think she was definitely testing the waters with some of the things like starting a conversation with a female Warden saying "Have I ever told you I really like your hair?"  Trying to seduce?  No.  But I do think she wanted the Warden to know if they're interested, she's interested.