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[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I imagine the Black City is the core of the Darkspawn taint, and can change any man into an Awakened Darkspawn immediately.

Personally I doubt there were any female Magisters.

More evidence that the Primeval Thaig Arlathan Dwarves elves were the cause of the mindless Darkspawn!

Fixed.

You sneaky , working your . You're !!

[MichaelFinnegan]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I imagine the Black City is the core of the Darkspawn taint, and can change any man into an Awakened Darkspawn immediately.

Personally I doubt there were any female Magisters.

More evidence that the Primeval Thaig Dwarves were the cause of the mindless Darkspawn!

Hmm. Is there something to suggest that a ghoul can't spread the taint? A broodmother is a ghoul, after all...

[TEWR]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I imagine the Black City is the core of the Darkspawn taint, and can change any man into an Awakened Darkspawn immediately.

Personally I doubt there were any female Magisters.

More evidence that the Primeval Thaig Dwarves were the cause of the mindless Darkspawn!

Hmm. Is there something to suggest that a ghoul can't spread the taint? A broodmother is a ghoul, after all...

Nope, ghouls can't spread the taint. They are however drawn towards the Darkspawn, which is why you find them around the Darkspawn.

Interesting tidbit: Morrigan calls the corruption in the Circle Tower incredibly similar to the Darkspawn's.

[MichaelFinnegan]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Nope, ghouls can't spread the taint. They are however drawn towards the Darkspawn, which is why you find them around the Darkspawn.

Wait. There's something amiss here. According to this darkspawn couldn't have been the first carriers.
DG: "A darkspawn is a creature that is born from a ghoul, but that's the only way they're created."

So, if what you say is true, that ghouls can't spread the taint, then something else brought the taint initially.

Interesting tidbit: Morrigan calls the corruption in the Circle Tower incredibly similar to the Darkspawn's.

These things don't add up. And demons don't know anything about the taint. Somehow they all seem connected, in some weird, twisted way, but I don't know what it could be...

[TEWR]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Nope, ghouls can't spread the taint. They are however drawn towards the Darkspawn, which is why you find them around the Darkspawn.

Wait. There's something amiss here. According to this darkspawn couldn't have been the first carriers.
DG: "A darkspawn is a creature that is born from a ghoul, but that's the only way they're created."

So, if what you say is true, that ghouls can't spread the taint, then something else brought the taint initially.

Interesting tidbit: Morrigan calls the corruption in the Circle Tower incredibly similar to the Darkspawn's.

These things don't add up. And demons don't know anything about the taint. Somehow they all seem connected, in some weird, twisted way, but I don't know what it could be...

The Black City is linked to the Taint, as Avernus' notes imply. It's my belief that the Dwarven women of the Primeval Thaig were somehow exposed to the Taint (the origins of which we don't know. We do know that the Taint and the Black City are linked however) and became broodmothers.

Much of the Primeval Thaig has similarities to the Darkspawn and Dwarves have more evidence about the Darkspawn than anyone else, so that's why I think that.

The broodmothers can't spread the taint in the sense that they can't make other people sick, but because they became broodmothers they can create Darkspawn who are the Taint incarnate. Darkspawn can spread the Taint.

As for Morrigan's comment, it's definitely odd. Mind boggling even.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Now I don't remember reading/seeing anywhere that ghouls can spread the taint. So that is certainly something to think about...

[whykikyouwhy]

While we don't have any proof that any one of the magisters was a woman, we also don't have proof in the opposite - it's possible there was a woman among them. Or it's possible that when the magisters came back from the Rotten Twinkie City, they immediately tainted a woman, or a woman was caught in the backlash of negative energy and became tainted, thus becoming the first Broodmother. Are we making the assumption that there were only 5 "original" darkspawn? It may be that the number is larger - the ones who received the full force of the vileness numbered 5, but there may have been others that received it in varying degrees.

[T3H Fish]

I think it has something to do with the nature of the Taint itself. We know it's spread through contact of Darkspawn blood, since its essentially their life-force. It's lethal to organic creatures, resulting in either a painful death or changing them into Ghouls. I have a couple of theories, but this is just stuff I'm pulling out of thin air.

1) When the Taint was first unleashed, or 'introduced' to Thedas, it was transmittable in some way and infected a large amount of people to start the First Blight. Over time, because the Taint became a more permanent presence on Thedas, natural resistances began to develop in dwarves, humans, elves, and other races, so instead of out-right killing them it changes them into Ghouls. With the Taint no longer transmittable through simple contact by Ghouls, another solution was come to, probably at the behest of an Old God and Ghouls captured females and force-fed them Tainted flesh, developing the Broodmothers and in turn, producing the mindless Darkspawn in which the Old God can fully control and can quickly spread the Taint.

2) The Taint itself is a living thing controlled by the Old Gods, even in their sleep, so it can be manipulated to serve different purposes. The Darkspawn are the Taint itself, so they are capable of spreading it to others, maybe as a design to create the Ghoul servants to supply the Horde with the weapons and armors it needs. Because the Ghouls aren't born from the Tainted womb of a Broodmother, they are incapable of spreading due to concentration of the Taint with in them or some other reason

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

@ T3J Fish

Darkspawn are created two ways:

1. Broodmothers
2. Grey Wardens turn into darkspawn when they go on their calling in the deep roads.

In the book "The Calling" Bergen who was a high ranking Warden (also knew the location of the remaining arch demons), and his sister who is on the hunt of her brother both turn into darkspawn in the book.   Bergen was a Commander of Grey Wardens of Orlais, or a First Warden which I can't remember right now.

Most wardens know they are going to their calling in the deep roads and the majority don't know they will turn into darkspawn. Which is what is happening to Larius in the new dlc. In Legacy, the other darkspawn run right by him and don't attack him. The same happened in the book with Bergen.   The entire Grey Warden order doesn't know they will turn into darkspawn.

The Architect is the one who told Bergen what was happening to him and that he was turning into a darkspawn. I think the Architect is a magister who has awaken and is one of the original that was tainted in the Golden City. One of the first to be tainted.

With Larius I got the impression he was cured of his calling when Corypheus is killed if you side with him.

I also think the chantry has figured out that the wardens turn into darkspawn. I think this was Wesley's mission and his job was to observe the battle of Ostagar. I also think the reason that Aveline calls darkspawn flames is due to wardens not yet being fully turned.

These are a few of my speculations.

I feel I should bring this topic back up again. Wardens don't turn into Darkspawn. They turn into ghouls. David Gaider said so:

David Gaider wrote…

No, they don't turn into darkspawn. A ghoul is any living creature that has been afflicted with the darkspawn corruption and survived the process-- and there are different stages from your typical (the standard "ghoul" you encounter, or creatures such as the blight wolf or the bereskarn) to the very advanced (the broodmother, a being who has had their corruption artificially accelerated). A darkspawn is a creature that is born from a ghoul, but that's the only way they're created.

Well it appears then that he has changed his mind.  In my post a page or so back I copied verbatim from his book and that is in detail of how Bergan changed or his calling was speed up.   The only explanation that I have is that when the Architect rescued Bergan from his brethen is when he corrupted Bergan. 

I don't understand why the writer would go to all of that trouble and then turn around and say that wardens don't turn into darkspawn.  So, they have decided this is not the way they are going.  I"m not the only one who picked up on this.  If my memory is correct, then there was alot of discussion on the DAO forum on this topic when the first game came out. 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 26 août 2011 - 03:47 .

[TEWR]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...


Well it appears then that he has changed his mind.  In my post a page or so back I copied verbatim from his book and that is in detail of how Bergan changed or his calling was speed up.   The only explanation that I have is that when the Architect rescued Bergan from his brethen is when he corrupted Bergan. 

I don't understand why the writer would go to all of that trouble and then turn around and say that wardens don't turn into darkspawn.  So, they have decided this is not the way they are going.  I"m not the only one who picked up on this.  If my memory is correct, then there was alot of discussion on the DAO forum on this topic when the first game came out. 

I guess they don't turn into Darkspawn naturally (naturally meaning over the course of the 30 years and the subsequent heeding of the Calling), but can turn into Darkspawn through unnatural and magical ways. Ways that only the Architect knows.

Actually, doesn't it call him a Darkspawn hybrid? He probably changed into something that looks similar to a Hurlock (I think Bregan was a human), but is still considered a ghoul. Just a very ugly one.

Also, the devs need to work on making the Ghouls look more.... ghoulish. I wouldn't mind the Hurlock grunt design being changed to be the Ghoul design:



because nothing about this makes sense for Bioware to call it a Darkpsawn. The thing has hair, flat teeth, no tattoos, and just doesn't look like a twisted incarnation of a human. It looks more like a Ghoul.

Throw in some scabs and different looks to reflect on different people and you've got a perfect human ghoul.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 août 2011 - 04:03 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ Ethereal

The Architect told him (Bergan) if I remember correctly, that he was going to change into a darkspawn and Janeka calls Larius a darkspawn.

The joining formula already has lyrium in it. Isn't lyrium magic in it's raw form? This is what I thought. If so, then maybe this is what actually helps wardens be immune to the taint for so long. So are wardens protected from the calling by the lyrium? If so then Alistair or any other Templar turned Warden then might not got to their calling for along time???? Uh never mind. Alistair was able to hear the arch demon just before the attack on the warden camp.

Something that always bothered me about that attack is where Morrigan is suddenly near everyone. Also it looks like over at her campsite she has phlacteries (sp?).

Edit: 

To me your picture shows this hurlock more human than darkspawn, and to me he looks like a human and the new design of the Hurlock Alpha also has human qualities.     I agree with another poster, none of this makes sense.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 26 août 2011 - 04:10 .

[Morroian]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Well it appears then that he has changed his mind.  In my post a page or so back I copied verbatim from his book and that is in detail of how Bergan changed or his calling was speed up.   The only explanation that I have is that when the Architect rescued Bergan from his brethen is when he corrupted Bergan. 

I just read that passage, it doesn't say Bregan turned into a darkspawn just that Bregan though he was like the darkspawn, which ghouls are.

Modifié par Morroian, 26 août 2011 - 04:11 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Morroian wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Well it appears then that he has changed his mind.  In my post a page or so back I copied verbatim from his book and that is in detail of how Bergan changed or his calling was speed up.   The only explanation that I have is that when the Architect rescued Bergan from his brethen is when he corrupted Bergan. 

I just read that passage, it doesn't say Bergan turned into a darkspawn just that Bergan though he was like the darkspawn, which ghouls are.

It's how he wrote the discription of Bergan's change.  From Bergan's calling to ghoul/darkspawn.  Compare his discription, then look at the new darkspawn in DA2.  I think it's somewhere in the book on pages 130-139; It's somewhere in this area.   To me this is discribing how a warden could turn into a darkspawn.  Bergan is a warden.  We are discussing Bergan's change.  His and Genevieve's both and their transformation.  To me it's them changing into darkspawn.  Yet David Gaider nows says that warden's don't turn into darkspawn on their calling. 

I think my wardens are just going to fall on their swords and forget it.

With Legacy and DA2 then ghouls are now able to fight just like regular darkspawn then?  In origins they couldn't fight, most of the ghouls that we meet were still human just batty as all get out.  Yet everyone is calling them darkspawn?  So they can't be ghouls and darkspawn both.  

Ok, what if wardens are turned into something like the disciples? 

Larius is on his way to looking like this.  I think we've seen various people in various stages of whatever they are going to be when tainted and how the calling affects them. 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 26 août 2011 - 04:32 .

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...




because nothing about this makes sense for Bioware to call it a Darkpsawn. The thing has hair, flat teeth, no tattoos, and just doesn't look like a twisted incarnation of a human.

In what world?

In Thedas. If I were living in Thedas, I wouldn't call that a twisted reflection of a man. I'd call it a skeleton, because it looks like a skeleton more than it does a Darkspawn.

I mean, I like the eyes. They definitely seem soulless. But the Disciples -- and all Hurlocks, Shrieks, and Ogres from Origins --are much better than the new hurlocks (and Shrieks and Ogres). That said about the Ogres, I just want their faces to not be mushed, look more Kossith like, and for the Ogres to have purple skin again.





This design keeps more in line with the codex of Hurlocks. They have tattoos (something normal Darkspawn also have), sharp teeth, and appear menacing with their Chelsea Grins. They were described as being animalistic in their non-Disciple state, and sharp teeth give a better sense of animalistic tendencies than flat teeth. Animalistic nature is more than just moving like an animal. And for the record, I despise the Hurlock monkey movements.

Their noses are also incredibly twisted and small, but not nonexistent like a skeleton's. So they look far less like a skeleton than the new design. The new design has incredibly pale skin (paler than Origins' Darkspawn) and a mouth that's reminiscent of that of a skull.

But I don't mean for this thread to become the new "Darkspawn, we ask you to change to your old look. You are too cuddly now" thread. That's what my old thread is for.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 août 2011 - 04:24 .

[TEWR]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

@ Ethereal

The Architect told him (Bergan) if I remember correctly, that he was going to change into a darkspawn and Janeka calls Larius a darkspawn.

The joining formula already has lyrium in it. Isn't lyrium magic in it's raw form? This is what I thought. If so, then maybe this is what actually helps wardens be immune to the taint for so long. So are wardens protected from the calling by the lyrium? If so then Alistair or any other Templar turned Warden then might not got to their calling for along time???? Uh never mind. Alistair was able to hear the arch demon just before the attack on the warden camp.

Something that always bothered me about that attack is where Morrigan is suddenly near everyone. Also it looks like over at her campsite she has phlacteries (sp?).

Edit: 

To me your picture shows this hurlock more human than darkspawn, and to me he looks like a human and the new design of the Hurlock Alpha also has human qualities.     I agree with another poster, none of this makes sense.

I like the new Hurlock Alpha design. Definitely keeps in line with the codex on them (regarding the size difference) and looks much more like a Darkspawn. Torn flesh, sharp teeth, etc..

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In Thedas. If I were living in Thedas, I wouldn't call that a twisted reflection of a man. I'd call it a skeleton, because it looks like a skeleton more than it does a Darkspawn.

I mean, I like the eyes. They definitely seem soulless. But the Disciples -- and all Hurlocks, Shrieks, and Ogres --are much better than the new hurlocks.

Your definition of twisted is twisted though. If you see a skeleton walking around, that's not a normal man. That's a twisted reflection of a man. Maybe it's not the kind of twisted you want, but it's still twisted.

And the alphas look just as much "more human" as the rest of the hurlocks do, it's strange you like them if this is your argument.

Yes, but Thedas sees enough skeletons.





The point I'm trying to make is that the Darkspawn and Skeletons are too similar to one another. They're not exact copies, but they don't strike me (and many other people) as being different from a Skeleton. A Darkspawn should look monstrous, not skeletal. Y'know?


As for the Alphas, no they don't look human. The only thing humanistic about them is the beige skin. But they have torn flesh, monstrously sharp teeth, crimson eyes, and possibly tattoos that the Darkspawn carve. They look monstrous.

Some would say "Mouth of Sauron"-esque, but that's another story.





Now, I'm going to stop posting so many pics.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Take a good look at a Hurlock Alpha's legs. They most certainly look like a human's legs.  Especially from the back side where their armor doesn't cover their legs.  Look at their backs and also the regular Hurlocks Bolters and Grunts.  Same with the new genlocks.  Their skin looks human or I guess you could say living flesh.   Look at the hands and the elbows in the photo above.  Looks human to me.

If a warden or someone is tainted and their is a magical way for them to turn into darkspawn, then maybe with their death they enter the fade and they are sent back to the real word as darkspawn.  This would coinside with what Duncan says at the mirror.   This also connects with Merrills mirror and a demon can also come through. 

What if darkspawn are demons that are tainted and they are coming through the veil, somehow, somewhere? 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 26 août 2011 - 04:42 .

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Their noses are also incredibly twisted and small, but not nonexistent like a skeleton's. So they look far less like a skeleton than the new design. The new design has incredibly pale skin (paler than Origins' Darkspawn) and a mouth that's reminiscent of that of a skull.

Wait, what are you talking about? The new hurlocks do have noses. The old hurlocks are more like "skeletons" in that regard than the new ones.

And you can't use the old darkspawn look as the basis of what defines how darkspawn should look when it's the merits of both it and the new darkspawn look that are under question. That's a circular argument. "The old darkspawn look good because that's how darkspawn look."

When I said twisted and small noses, I meant Origins' Hurlocks, not DAII's. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused . But Origins' Hurlocks do have noses. They're just as I said very twisted and small, but not nonexistent. They're closer to looking like a skeleton, it's true. But they also maintain a humanistic quality as well as an animalistic one.

And I'm trying to prove a point on what defines an animalistic, monstrous creature. In that regard, Origins was superior at showing that. So I can use the old look to justify my argument, because they do seem more monstrous and animalistic than the new look.

I'm not using my personal preference to justify my argument. I'm using the old look to say "This is more monstrous than this."

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

Re: alphas-- their teeth simply look like they're further along with their periodontitis than non-alphas. Not monstrous. You can't see the rest of their face because they're wearing a mask. Their mouths look bloody, yeah, the other hurlocks' eyes look bloody too. The rest of their body structure is the same.

Dammit I had to look up periodontitis to know what it was and now I will never forget the images of it I've seen. That's the very definition of monstrous.....

Anyway... um.... the new Hurlock grunts don't have bloody mouths. Nor do their eyes. The Hurlock grunts' eyes were grayish black and soulless looking, while the Hurlock Alpha's eyes are either bloodshot or a crimson red color entirely that isn't due to being bloodshot. And they kinda appear soulless. As for their teeth, while they are losing their teeth the teeth themselves are sharp, much like Origins' Hurlocks had.

Now, for the rest of the face. While we can't see it, the codex on Hurlocks says that they adorn themselves with roughly carved tattoos and keep track of their kills. Hurlock Alphas would definitely adorn themselves with tattoos.

The point I'm trying to make is that yeah, they're more human, but they're still twisted. To say they new look doesn't twist the normal human visage is to ignore reality. And I happen to prefer the more human look overall. It also makes it more believable that a Warden who went full ghoul might mistake himself for a darkspawn.

It doesn't twist it enough to promote something monstrous. DAO did. While the Hurlocks in Origins didn't look humanistic enough to make a person believe that's what a full ghoul Warden would look like, they were still humanistic and animalistic enough.

I'm trying to imagine what their nose would look like on the old design. I don't think I'd like it, especially when I really like how the Disciples looked. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not against them having a more humanistic look. But it also needs to maintain a proper element of promoting monstrosity and horror alongside a humanized look in balance. DAII's design isn't it.

Given the choice between DAO's design for Hurlock grunts and DAII's, I'll take DAO's.



I'm a bit apprehensive about posting this response, as I'm trying not to make it seem like I'm contradicting what I've said in previous posts.

[TEWR]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Take a good look at a Hurlock Alpha's legs. They most certainly look like a human's legs.  Especially from the back side where their armor doesn't cover their legs.  Look at their backs and also the regular Hurlocks Bolters and Grunts.  Same with the new genlocks.  Their skin looks human or I guess you could say living flesh.   Look at the hands and the elbows in the photo above.  Looks human to me.

If a warden or someone is tainted and their is a magical way for them to turn into darkspawn, then maybe with their death they enter the fade and they are sent back to the real word as darkspawn.  This would coinside with what Duncan says at the mirror.   This also connects with Merrills mirror and a demon can also come through. 

What if darkspawn are demons that are tainted and they are coming through the veil, somehow, somewhere? 

I can't really talk about the body below the head because Origins' Darkspawn were the same.

As for your point about demons, Avernus tells us that they know nothing about the taint and the only place that has any connection to the taint is the Black City, which demons and spirits don't go to.