283 réponses à ce sujet

[Ariella]

Okay so I'm sort of taking Dragoon's advice and not posting this in his three things in DA3 thread, however, the use of language as the franchise continues does concern me a bit.

What I'm talking about is word choice, and the maturity of that choice. This is important, especially in the face of many people raving about the mature language used in The Witcher 2. Now, I've played TW2, and found that the tendency of the characters to curse reached the point of inanity. Having a great number of swear words in a game and calling the language "mature" is one of the worst of all cop outs. Add to that the fact the overuse of certain swears lessens the visceral impact when such a word IS called for in dialogue.

And before anyone asks, I had the same problem with Jack's limited vocabulary as I did the cursing in TW2.

Now we get to DA2. While there is cursing, it's not over used, and it is used effectively in the sparse moments that it does happen. The language in general also doesn't play to the fantasy stereotype of feeling it has to be stilted and archaic, while still holding the spirit of the setting, This is a trend I hope to see continue in future installments of the franchise.

This kind of thing is hard to quantify. And while I realize that many people didn't like the story of DA2, there is a something to the way words fit together into phrases and sentences, and I'd have better luck trying to herd cats or game developers than I would trying to express that magic when words, phrases and sentences become more than just strings of letters on a screen. This is one of the most important, if not the most important thing, that should be considered. Keep pushing the language, but push it in a smart way. Hell, use words we all crammed back when we were studying for the ACT/SATs if they're what's needed. Make mature language smart language. From my own observations, while I'll admit somewhat limited with some of the writing staff, the team's has the chops to do it. They have done it, in fact. I just hope they keep pushing the envelope without feeling the need to fall back on "colorful metaphor" to show "maturity".

Ariella

[Zanallen]

I really don't understand this desire for nudity and cursing that people seem to desire. And the most used excuses of "I'm an adult so I can handle it" or "Its a mature rated game so it should be mature" are just silly. Over using f bombs and panty shots seems more immature than mature to me. As such, I agree in a way. If Bioware is going to have cursing, have it make sense, be consistent with the character and use it effectively.

[Ariella]

Zanallen wrote...

I really don't understand this desire for nudity and cursing that people seem to desire. And the most used excuses of "I'm an adult so I can handle it" or "Its a mature rated game so it should be mature" are just silly. Over using f bombs and panty shots seems more immature than mature to me. As such, I agree in a way. If Bioware is going to have cursing, have it make sense, be consistent with the character and use it effectively.

Part of the problem is both nudity and cursing are so taboo, especially in American culture, that it becomes "mature" by the virtue of being forbidden to people under the age of consent.

Nudity can be done artfully (the scene in the first ME is a good example), and cursing can be used efffectively, but creative people of pretty much every stripe have to watch out for the trap that substitues those things for a shock value rather than serving the creative outlet.

[Zanallen]

Ariella wrote...

Part of the problem is both nudity and cursing are so taboo, especially in American culture, that it becomes "mature" by the virtue of being forbidden to people under the age of consent.

Nudity can be done artfully (the scene in the first ME is a good example), and cursing can be used efffectively, but creative people of pretty much every stripe have to watch out for the trap that substitues those things for a shock value rather than serving the creative outlet.

I guess I just don't really see the need for it most of the time. Like in the highly lauded Witcher 2. I don't really see the need in having the nudity aside from appealing to the horny young men demographic. It can be used tastefully and effectively, same with cursing, but it rarely ever is.

[Gespenst]

Friendship (+10)

A mature rating doesn't always mean it's a mature game.

[Ariella]

Gespenst wrote...

Friendship (+10)

A mature rating doesn't always mean it's a mature game.

Thanks, Gespenst, and you're right... I mean how many R movies are there that really are basic toilet humor.

@Zanallen: it's the thrill of the forbidden when you boil it down, and unfortunately it sells even when it isn't tasteful.

[thats1evildude]

I'm sort of glad that they introduced cursing, as I found it a bit awkward that the only curses were "Sod" or variations on "ANDRASTE'S XXXXX!"

I ran into this problem while trying to write a FanFic not too long ago, and I had to use "Andraste's Flaming Sword" when "OH S**T" would have worked so much better.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 août 2011 - 04:08 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

Ariella wrote...

Add to that the fact the overuse of certain swears lessens the visceral impact when such a word IS called for in dialogue.

Agreed.  When I curse, other people pay attention because they know I really mean it since I do so rarely.  When one of my best friends curses, no one really notices anymore because that's just how she is.

Hell, use words we all crammed back when we were studying for the ACT/SATs if they're what's needed. Make mature language smart language. From my own observations, while I'll admit somewhat limited with some of the writing staff, the team's has the chops to do it. They have done it, in fact. I just hope they keep pushing the envelope without feeling the need to fall back on "colorful metaphor" to show "maturity".

Ariella

Larson in his The Devil in the White City does this well.  His writing is very clear and to the point while at the same time not afraid to send the reader to the dictionary every now and then.  I have a few chapters left to finish, but so far Larson also deals with decidedly gruesome and sensational subject matter (a prolific serial killer and his methods) in a decidedly mature way.  He doesn't need to resort to shock language or tactics.

This is what mature means to me (though I don't object to Jack's language because it fit her background and character) and the kind of style I enjoy.  And I'm with you; the writers can pull this kind of thing off.

[whykikyouwhy]

thats1evildude wrote...

I'm sort of glad that they introduced cursing, as I found it a bit awkward that the only curses were "Sod" or variations on "ANDRASTE'S XXXXX!"

I ran into this problem while trying to write a FanFic not too long ago, and I had to use "Andraste's Flaming Sword" when "OH S**T" would have worked so much better.

Isabela uses "sh*t" at least once, if memory serves. It might be twice actually, but I specifically remember one instance.

[kirkonacid]

I think mature language is knowing when to hold back. Cursing can definitely make a point if used correctly, but over usage is more consistent with most fourteen year-olds rather than adults.

[thats1evildude]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Isabela uses "sh*t" at least once, if memory serves. It might be twice actually, but I specifically remember one instance.

Sure, in DA2, but not in Origins. Which is my point: I found the absence of any actual swearing in Origins to be kind of ... forced.

The inclusion of swears actually was an improvement in DA2, as it did help make the dialogue feel more natural. Consider the scene where Cassandra first interrupts Varric's story. Which works better?

"You're lying! That's not what really happened."

"Bull****! That's not what really happened."

The first line seems kinda awkward, IMHO. A lack of strong language can actually undermine some scenes.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 août 2011 - 05:10 .

[Ariella]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Add to that the fact the overuse of certain swears lessens the visceral impact when such a word IS called for in dialogue.

Agreed.  When I curse, other people pay attention because they know I really mean it since I do so rarely.  When one of my best friends curses, no one really notices anymore because that's just how she is.

I know what you mean. I have friends who swear like sailors, and I have to remind them to watch it around the kids, as I so don't want to end up like Robin Williams after his son learned the F-bomb from daddy (by mistake) and thought it was a good word to use at school. I tend to swear when I speak only when I'm startled or really ticked, so it's rare enough. In writing it depends on the circumstance and character.

Hell, use words we all crammed back when we were studying for the ACT/SATs if they're what's needed. Make mature language smart language. From my own observations, while I'll admit somewhat limited with some of the writing staff, the team's has the chops to do it. They have done it, in fact. I just hope they keep pushing the envelope without feeling the need to fall back on "colorful metaphor" to show "maturity".

Ariella

Larson in his The Devil in the White City does this well.  His writing is very clear and to the point while at the same time not afraid to send the reader to the dictionary every now and then.  I have a few chapters left to finish, but so far Larson also deals with decidedly gruesome and sensational subject matter (a prolific serial killer and his methods) in a decidedly mature way.  He doesn't need to resort to shock language or tactics.

This is what mature means to me (though I don't object to Jack's language because it fit her background and character) and the kind of style I enjoy.  And I'm with you; the writers can pull this kind of thing off.

With Jack, I just got tired of it after a while, I know it's her character but it just gets tiresome to hear "bleep YAH!" or the like whenever she talks. I'm hoping if she shows in ME3 she's worked through it a little bit where conversations could actually be aired on TV

I've been told that The Devil in the White City is very good. A friend is trying to get me to read it, especially since I'm Chicagoan bred in the bone. But Devil isn't exact fiction. I'm trying to think of good fiction authors who are able to use blue language and not be "kiddy" about it. David Weber comes to mind in his Honor Harrington series. Chris Farnsworth's Nathaniel Cade series does a good job. And to keep it on DA, I don't think Dave Gaider has had any of his characters use modern curses in the books, nor do I think any of the short stories that were written for the LIs and posted on Valentines Day this year had swears either.

[David Gaider]

Our rule with profanity is "occasional but impactful", with the occasional allowance for a character that swears as part of their personality-- indeed, for such a character the profanity would more or less fade into the background.

The only profanity we argued about was the f-bomb. We had it for a while but eventually removed it as it seemed too distracting.

[Ariella]

thats1evildude wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Isabela uses "sh*t" at least once, if memory serves. It might be twice actually, but I specifically remember one instance.

Sure, in DA2, but not in Origins. Which is my point: I found the absence of any actual swearing in Origins to be kind of awkward.

The inclusion of swears actually was an improvement in DA2, as it did help make the dialogue feel more natural. Consider the scene where Cassandra first interrupts Varric's story. Which works better?

"You're lying! That's not what really happened."

"Bull****! That's not what really happened."

The first line seems kinda awkward, IMHO.

If I were writing it, and wanting to avoid using BS :innocent: I'd do it like this

Cassandra (extremely angry to the point of tearing Varric's head off): LIAR! That's not what really happend!

I'd make sure that the voice actress knew to put the emphasis on that first word, put as much accusation in as possible before moving on.

Not saying the scene doesn't work as written, and the use of the word s*** in DA2 isn't funny as sin in a lot of places (Merrill imitating Varric is a great example, especially since it's not what you'd expect out of her mouth). But it sparing usage that makes it work.

[devSin]

David Gaider wrote...

The only profanity we argued about was the f-bomb. We had it for a while but eventually removed it as it seemed too distracting.

When in doubt, leave it out. I don't miss the "f-bomb" and hope you stay away from it (Aria has the stupidest line in the whole game for me; like, where the heck did that come from, lady?), but I generally felt the profanity you did allow turned out really well.

I won't say I missed or wanted to see profanity in something like Origins (where you didn't really swear that I can recall), but I also think it added a little extra something in the places you did use it, so mission accomplished, I guess.

Modifié par devSin, 12 août 2011 - 04:34 .

[Cutlass Jack]

David Gaider wrote...

Our rule with profanity is "occasional but impactful", with the occasional allowance for a character that swears as part of their personality-- indeed, for such a character the profanity would more or less fade into the background.

The only profanity we argued about was the f-bomb. We had it for a while but eventually removed it as it seemed too distracting.

Janeka's bit of profanity at the end of Legacy was perfectly timed.

[thats1evildude]

Ariella wrote...

But it sparing usage that makes it work.

Agreed.

I think Idunna's curse when a mage party member breaks her control of Hawke was also a perfect example of profanity used well. "How did you …? Oh ****! "

It wouldn't have worked well if she said "Gosh darn! I'm in trouble now!" She's a prostitute and a blood mage who just tried to make you slit your own throat. I think a little mature language isn't out of place.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 août 2011 - 04:41 .

[Ariella]

David Gaider wrote...

Our rule with profanity is "occasional but impactful", with the occasional allowance for a character that swears as part of their personality-- indeed, for such a character the profanity would more or less fade into the background.

The only profanity we argued about was the f-bomb. We had it for a while but eventually removed it as it seemed too distracting.

I'm glad you did. The f-bomb has in some ways taken on a life of its own that you're right in it's a word that can be distracting. It's one of those words where "I can't believe he/she just said that", and you miss the rest of what the characters saying at times. Or as pointed out with Jack in Me2, the f-bomb kind of lost impact whenever she said it because it was part of her character.

But I'm glad you popped in. I'd personally like to hear more of what you and the other writers have to say about the language you use for DA above and beyond profanity. Blame Steven King and Amy Tam, as I've been rereading his On Writing where he talks about the one thing he and his friends who are writers never get asked about: the language itself. So I'd love to hear from the perspective of game design where and how the writer's art fits along side all these techincal wonders.

Yes, I'm geeking because I love the magic that is reading and writing. Sad but true.

[Ariella]

thats1evildude wrote...

Ariella wrote...

But it sparing usage that makes it work.

Agreed.

I think Idunna's curse when a mage party member breaks her control of Hawke was also a perfect example of profanity used well.

"How did you …? Oh ****! "

It wouldn't have worked well if she said "Gosh darn! I'm in trouble now!"

I keep forgetting that line is even there, it works so well, but is also innocuous in a weird way. I have to remind myself to shoo the rugrats out when I'm running that quest.

[thats1evildude]

Ariella wrote...

Yes, I'm geeking because I love the magic that is reading and writing. Sad but true.

Ah yes, as do I.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 août 2011 - 04:43 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

thats1evildude wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Yes, I'm geeking because I love the magic that is reading and writing. Sad but true.

Ah yes, as do I.

There is nothing sad about geeking over the magic of the written word. 

[Iakus]

David Gaider wrote...

Our rule with profanity is "occasional but impactful", with the occasional allowance for a character that swears as part of their personality-- indeed, for such a character the profanity would more or less fade into the background.

The only profanity we argued about was the f-bomb. We had it for a while but eventually removed it as it seemed too distracting.

Good choice.  The more occassional it is, the more impactful it becomes when it does get used.  That's one reason I never got TW2.  I've played the original game, and found the language so foul that I started thinking  it was used under the philosphy of "because we can" rather than out of any literary or artistic need.

There's "mature"  then there's "grownup" they aren't always the same thing.

I am glad the f-bomb got nixed.  The uses in ME2, while not exactly frequent, were still distracting. IT made the characters who used it less appealing. 

[frustratemyself]

I guess it depends if it fits into the setting or not. The swearing didn't bother me in ME2 cause to me it fit with the setting/characters (I also swear like a sailor in real life).

Using f*** as a swear in DA2 would have just been weird and distracting as it doesn't really fit the setting.

[Dariuszp]

Hi guys. Really interesting thread. If I may, I will throw some of my words.

First of all. I read all 7 books about Witcher 2. Twice. Also I'm from Poland. Developers are from Poland. Sapkowski (author of the books) is from Poland. So you know the drill.

First of all - cursing in Witcher books is very common for some characters (not all of them). Even if you got outside you will hear people cursing on the street. If they fall, if they hurt themselves, if they fail etc. It's perfectly normal for loot of people. I even know some that use f*** almost like a coma.
Triss is another example. You almost never hear cursing from here but if she get really mad, she can create long wreath of curses. Some people do that.

But I think that maturity of language is not about cursing. Yeah. They use it. Don't know how this look in your country but in mine - it's hard to walk 2000 meters among people without hearing something like that. Are they using it too much ? Some characters do (Talar in W1) but this is how he was created.
I think that maturity is about dialogues itself. They are mature most of the time. Add a cursing to them and what you get ? Stuff you hear on the street. Stuff that don't feel unnatural to you.

Tell me. If you get hit by an arrow and you will be bleeding - will you say:
- oh my... how sad. Bad luck... who shoot it ?
or
- f***, i could see that comming. I will kill that mot**fu**** who did it!

Also remember that loot of time in W2 you walk among soldiers. Simple, angry people that curs a loot. Even Foltest is more a soldier than a king. He would be probably happy if you give him a sword, horse and some enemies to kill rather than playing politics.

So for me most of the time cursing in W2 feel natural. It's not out of the place. Just like dialogues. They are interesting. Just like situation when specific dialogues occur.

Opposite to that - for me, DA, ME and other games dialogue feel unnatural. I almost never hear characters getting mad and they almost never curs.
They got mad and all they do is "arrrrgghhhh!!!, rrrrrr!!!, gggrrrr!". It's kinda funny. AND often out of place in my opinion.

And about nudity. I think that nudity in W2 is done with taste. Guys - W2 it's +18 game. Blood, gore, sex - all allowed. Compare it to Dragon Age. It should be +18 if I remember right ? But why ? Remove hectoliters of blood (that sometimes cover 80% of the screen and make funny moments like "bloody fight... with rats...") and what you will get ? +15 or +16 game.

So maturity is not about cursing. It's about situations and dialogues.

[igneous.sponge]

Funnily enough, I didn't mind BioWare's foray into harsher language all that much with ME2. Most of the profanity, I found, was rather comical, and had a sort of silly, amiable air about it. I think that self-referential humour and comedic undercurrent is a core part of the game and what made the profanity work well.

That said, Jack's forcefulness certainly was a weird and remarkable contrast against the rest of ME2's backdrop. At first, I found her use of language jarring, but after a while I came to appreciate her character and how appropriate the profanity actually was. There was a substance and honesty to the writing that contributed integrity and validation to her character. I imagine whoever wrote Jack put a good deal of thought into her, especially given the confines of a cRPG's limited framework. (It certainly helped that her voice actress did a terrific job.) In that sense, I thought Jack was very much a success.

DA2 was pretty hit-and-miss, in my opinion. The expletives often felt like they were fighting not just for pertinence, but against self-consciousness, cliché, anachronism, even against the game's spiritual predecessors, like DA:O and BG — games that were grounded in a more dense, classical vocabulary. Cassandra's "Bull[excrement]!" provoked me to an audible groan; it just seemed so shoehorned and out-of-place. It did get better over the course of the game, but I think it bears mentioniong that DA3—which will still remain part of that lineage and micro-genre established with BG1—needs particular care in this regard.

On the broader subject of 'coarse' language in games, I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs, generally. The impression I get is that a lot of game studios promiscuously drop the f-bombs (etc.) in an almost cynical, calculated fashion, not only for the aforementioned shock value but to appeal to male insecurities and power fantasies. It's a particularly prominent phenomenon in console-oriented FPSes, games awash in masculine pretention and swaggering expletives. Personally, I find it all very obnoxious and oppressive. I hope we can count on BioWare to stay classy in this regard.