283 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

alex90c wrote...

I swear. Almost everyone I know swears. However I think it should really depend on the character we're dealing with - say for example hearing Bethany swear would just be a 'lolwut?' moment because she's all innocent and stuff, but if Isabela rarely swore I would have found it odd because, well, she's crude (among other things) and it makes sense for her to swear.

What I'd really like for just random NPCs though is that they swear frequently (when they have dialogue if they're just discussing something normally) but for it to feel natural. As an example, I myself if I'm talking to a friend I could say like "f*cking hell, last night I ..." and I wouldn't emphasise the swearing at all and it would just be a normal conversation (rather than "woah he swore!!!").

Of course, get too creative with the curses and it ends up making a game like DA sound far too contemporary when it's meant to have a kind of medieval fantasy vibe.

Pretty much this, anyone that swore in DA2, it fitted there character. Beth never sore at all, Merrill only say's sh*t once and that was more of mocking Varric and seb also does not swear. Not to mention several other characters do not swear. DA2 did it good with it's swearing imho.

[ipgd]

I clicked on this thread hoping it would be something interesting about constructed languages, but no, it's another thread about bad words ):

[Elhanan]

It actually hurt a little to have Merrill call Hawke, 'Shem' during her Rivalry rage cut-scene; possibly a fair illustration that self-restrictions can work.

[Mr.House]

I wonder if most people know that sod is slang for the f-bomb in Britain and anytime a character said sod it, sod off ect they where really saying f*ck off.

DAO used sod alot.

[Cutlass Jack]

Elhanan wrote...

It actually hurt a little to have Merrill call Hawke, 'Shem' during her Rivalry rage cut-scene; possibly a fair illustration that self-restrictions can work.

I just like hearing Merril say 'dirty.'

[Mr.House]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

It actually hurt a little to have Merrill call Hawke, 'Shem' during her Rivalry rage cut-scene; possibly a fair illustration that self-restrictions can work.

I just like hearing Merril say 'dirty.'

Dirty spells.

[happy_daiz]

I just like watching Mr. House's animation.

[Jamie_edmo]

Mr.House wrote...

I wonder if most people know that sod is slang for the f-bomb in Britain and anytime a character said sod it, sod off ect they where really saying f*ck off.

DAO used sod alot.

It's not as strong a word as F*ck, and is used more casually, eg: in daytime tv etc.

[nijnij]

I thought Ron Gilbert nailed this perfectly in an interview :
"Problem with a lot of mature titles is they come from developer immaturity more than artistic need. The industry is made up of a lot of people that still giggle when they see a breast. Being M doesn't make you cool. Making a game where two girls kiss doesn't make you an artist."

That would apply to language as well...

[Mr.House]

One thing that does have me puzzled and maybe one of the writers can answer it, why did they not include sh*te instead of sh*t in some conversations?

[KLUME777]

Mr.House wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Isabela uses "sh*t" at least once, if memory serves. It might be twice actually, but I specifically remember one instance.

Sure, in DA2, but not in Origins. Which is my point: I found the absence of any actual swearing in Origins to be kind of ... forced.

The inclusion of swears actually was an improvement in DA2, as it did help make the dialogue feel more natural. Consider the scene where Cassandra first interrupts Varric's story. Which works better?

"You're lying! That's not what really happened."

"Bull****! That's not what really happened."

The first line seems kinda awkward, IMHO. A lack of strong language can actually undermine some scenes.

I disagree. I like swearing when it is used effectively, but i dislike it when i feel it doesn't fit the setting. Dragon Age is fantasy/Lord of the rings. Swearing doesn't belong in there and i think it ruins it. I was glad Origins had no swearing.

DAO had swearing. It just didn't have sh*t. DA2 has sh*t, including all the swear words from DAO.

DAO had no real world swear words. If they did, they were so well placed that i didn't even notice it. I dislike the inclusion of sh*t and others in Dragon Age, because i don't think it fits the setting. It just pulls me out of it and facepalm. I have no problem with it in a real world setting or similar though, as i swear all the time in real life.

EDIT: What DAO did, was perfect. DA2 went too far.

Modifié par KLUME777, 12 août 2011 - 03:56 .

[Mr.House]

KLUME777 wrote...
DAO had no real world swear words. If they did, they were so well placed that i didn't even notice it. I dislike the inclusion of sh*t and others in Dragon Age, because i don't think it fits the setting. It just pulls me out of it and facepalm. I have no problem with it in a real world setting or similar though, as i swear all the time in real life.

EDIT: What DAO did, was perfect. DA2 went too far.

ass, arse, bastard and b*tch where all in DAO. Not to mention sod off was also in DAO and that is a slang for f*ck off. Sh*t in DA2 was placed well because only certain characters used it, you're acting like it was said by everyone and throwen around, and that's simply not the case.

Modifié par Mr.House, 12 août 2011 - 04:00 .

[KLUME777]

Mr.House wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...
DAO had no real world swear words. If they did, they were so well placed that i didn't even notice it. I dislike the inclusion of sh*t and others in Dragon Age, because i don't think it fits the setting. It just pulls me out of it and facepalm. I have no problem with it in a real world setting or similar though, as i swear all the time in real life.

EDIT: What DAO did, was perfect. DA2 went too far.

ass, arse, bastard and b*tch where all in DAO. Not to mention sod off was also in DAO and that is a slang for f*ck off. Sh*t in DA2 was placed well because only certain characters used it, you're acting like it was said by everyone and throwen around, and that's simply not the case.

As i said, they used it so well, i didn't even notice, unlike sh*t in DA2. And none of those words are as bad as sh*t, and they actually do fit the setting. Sh*t feels too modern and of our world, not Thedas'. DA2's swearing felt out of context. And sod - I don't see it as f*ck at at all. A lot of words are substitutes for other swear words anyway, but they feel different when used.

Again, DAO got it right, DA2 too far.

Modifié par KLUME777, 12 août 2011 - 04:16 .

[Sutekh]

Yrkoon wrote...
<snip>

TL;DR:  If you're aiming to make a mature game,  Don't insult your adult audience  with a  PG-13 atmosphere.  And by the same token,   Don't turn us off with interactive pornos.  Do something in between.

Agreed 100%.

In writing (as opposed to RL), swearing becomes a problem when it's either so overused or irrelevant that it becomes distracting. When you feel it's forced and only there for the sake of it, to be "edgy", you end up reading / hearing only the swearing part and skip on the actual meaning of the sentence, because it's everywhere. Both swearing and total lack thereof also can lead to a lot of OOCness and ruin the mood setting. It's like everything, really. Too much of it kills it. 

Besides, if you need a character to be vulgar, you don't need actual cursing words for it. For instance, Oghren's use of "pipe cleaner" is quite rude and offensive in its own right, as it should be. 

As for RL comparison, it raises two points:

1. Not everyone swears. I know people who never do. Never. It's not that they're stuck up or anything, just that when they need emphasis, the words that come to them aren't swear words. I also know people who swear a lot, to the point when you stop noticing it after a while, and it doesn't mean anything special.

2. Setting is important. Place and time. Cursing can be a regional thing. I come from a region where the equivalent of "F***" and "C***" are used as commas. Literally. It's a cultural thing. Where I live, on the other hand, use of those words is noticed. Also, use of swear words change according to period. If you read fictional literature from the middle-age / renaissance, you'll find more vulgarities and sexual innuendoes (with or without cursing) than in the 19th / 20th century.

Imaginary settings are usually based on RL, so all of this should be taken into account. Language should vary depending on the general culture you want to establish, and all the variations coming from individuals, regions, social background, mythology etc... Universe-specific cursing goes a long way in that regard ("blighted", "nug-humper", "Andraste's flaming a**" etc...) It does a lot for fleshing out the whole thing.

Games (and movies) don't have the luxury of third-person objective PoV to describe (which, anyway, isn't a very good thing in itself), so language builds half the characterization. Since cursing is something that is generally noticed first (it's a strong flavor), it should be used accordingly. When everyone uses it, everyone ends up sounding the same no matter the situation, which flattens setting and narration. Same if no-one uses it ever. When a miner's language can't be distinguished from a king's just because everyone has to sound mature or because of censorship, you have a problem.

[Mr.House]

KLUME777 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...
DAO had no real world swear words. If they did, they were so well placed that i didn't even notice it. I dislike the inclusion of sh*t and others in Dragon Age, because i don't think it fits the setting. It just pulls me out of it and facepalm. I have no problem with it in a real world setting or similar though, as i swear all the time in real life.

EDIT: What DAO did, was perfect. DA2 went too far.

ass, arse, bastard and b*tch where all in DAO. Not to mention sod off was also in DAO and that is a slang for f*ck off. Sh*t in DA2 was placed well because only certain characters used it, you're acting like it was said by everyone and throwen around, and that's simply not the case.

As i said, they used it so well, i didn't even notice, unlike sh*t in DA2. And none of those words are as bad as sh*t, and they actually do fit the setting. Sh*t feels too modern and of our world, not Thedas'. DA2's swearing felt out of context. And sod - I don't see it as f*ck at at all. A lot of words are substitutes for other swear words anyway, but they fell different when used.

Again, DAO got it right, DA2 too far.

SH*t is taken from Sh*te, which is a very old British word. It fits, just because YOU don't feel it fits does not mean anything. Also same with sod, it does not matter if you don't think it means f*ck, the point is it does and no matter how hard to try to convince your self it's not, it won't work.

DAO did not get it right at all, DA2 is on the right track, just include Sh*te and it will be perfect. Also how does sh*t feel out of context in DA2 when the characters that say it or when they say it fits and is logical? Show me where say Beth, Seb and Merrill swear? Show me where Cullen, other Templars, Meredith and the Grand Cleric swear?

[ZabiGG]

Mr.House wrote...

One thing that does have me puzzled and maybe one of the writers can answer it, why did they not include sh*te instead of sh*t in some conversations?

^ this ^

The swearing itself didn't bother me that much, but it was definitely anachronistic, and THAT broke the immersion for me. I much prefer the creative expletives created for DAO -- made me laugh.

On the other hand, I keep reminding my tween that swearing is merely demonstrating lack of vocabulary, and I keep playing this game with said tween to find 20 other ways to express it with the same feeling. And you know what? We often find much more than 20.

Just a thought

[element eater]

dunno S*** is a reasonably old so I have no issue with it @mr house i was under the impression that s**t came before s**te and that S**te was simply a slang variation. Sod I actually think is very effective as its used quite well in its context although its more akin to bugger of the F*** off.

The only words i find out place in da as those which are clearly modern american like 'ass' every time i hear that it breaks immersion a little bit as it sounds so wrong from characters that are meant to be speaking in an English manner.

Modifié par element eater, 12 août 2011 - 04:31 .

[Jamie_edmo]

Not DA2 related, but this is a good interview by Stephen Fry about swearing I found it interesting:

Modifié par Jamie_edmo, 12 août 2011 - 04:26 .

[KLUME777]

Mr.House wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...
DAO had no real world swear words. If they did, they were so well placed that i didn't even notice it. I dislike the inclusion of sh*t and others in Dragon Age, because i don't think it fits the setting. It just pulls me out of it and facepalm. I have no problem with it in a real world setting or similar though, as i swear all the time in real life.

EDIT: What DAO did, was perfect. DA2 went too far.

ass, arse, bastard and b*tch where all in DAO. Not to mention sod off was also in DAO and that is a slang for f*ck off. Sh*t in DA2 was placed well because only certain characters used it, you're acting like it was said by everyone and throwen around, and that's simply not the case.

As i said, they used it so well, i didn't even notice, unlike sh*t in DA2. And none of those words are as bad as sh*t, and they actually do fit the setting. Sh*t feels too modern and of our world, not Thedas'. DA2's swearing felt out of context. And sod - I don't see it as f*ck at at all. A lot of words are substitutes for other swear words anyway, but they fell different when used.

Again, DAO got it right, DA2 too far.

SH*t is taken from Sh*te, which is a very old British word. It fits, just because YOU don't feel it fits does not mean anything. Also same with sod, it does not matter if you don't think it means f*ck, the point is it does and no matter how hard to try to convince your self it's not, it won't work.

DAO did not get it right at all, DA2 is on the right track, just include Sh*te and it will be perfect. Also how does sh*t feel out of context in DA2 when the characters that say it or when they say it fits and is logical? Show me where say Beth, Seb and Merrill swear? Show me where Cullen, other Templars, Meredith and the Grand Cleric swear?

It feels out of context, not because they are feeling those emotions (they are), but because where would they know the word "bullsh*t". They don't live on Earth, they live in Thedas, it feels out of place, and it feels modern. They should use a word with equal impact, but specific to their world (Like DAO's plethora of nug humper, Andraste's nickers etc. Make a new one if they have too). Fantasy/Lord of the Rings setting should not be assosiated with the modern meaning words of sh*t and f*ck.

[Mr.House]

element eater wrote...

dunno S*** is a reasonably old so I have no issue with it @mr house i was under the impression that s**t came before s**te and that S**te was simply a slang variation. Sod I actually think is very effective as its used quite well in its context.

The only words i find out place in da as those which are clearly modern american like 'ass' every time i hear that it breaks immersion a little bit as it sounds so wrong from characters that are meant to be speaking in an English manner.

Hmm you could be right, eitherway, Sh*te would be better since it would fit the setting of DA, same with arse. The problem with arse however is that if you read the subtitles, the word is arse but the actors say ass, so it's less about writing and more oft he actor not gettingt he line right.

I will agree with sod too, it's very effective and perfect, same with the other swear words.

[ipgd]

ZabiGG wrote...

swearing is merely demonstrating lack of vocabulary

Well, it looks like someone beat me to the Stephen Fry thing, so I'll just motion in that direction and make exasperated noises.

[Jamie_edmo]

Mr.House wrote...

element eater wrote...

dunno S*** is a reasonably old so I have no issue with it @mr house i was under the impression that s**t came before s**te and that S**te was simply a slang variation. Sod I actually think is very effective as its used quite well in its context.

The only words i find out place in da as those which are clearly modern american like 'ass' every time i hear that it breaks immersion a little bit as it sounds so wrong from characters that are meant to be speaking in an English manner.

Hmm you could be right, eitherway, Sh*te would be better since it would fit the setting of DA, same with arse. The problem with arse however is that if you read the subtitles, the word is arse but the actors say ass, so it's less about writing and more oft he actor not gettingt he line right.

I will agree with sod too, it's very effective and perfect, same with the other swear words.

Totally agree, but whats your opinion on characters with american accents like varric should they say sh*te and arse, or sh*t and ass?

[ZabiGG]

element eater wrote...

dunno S*** is a reasonably old so I have no issue with it @mr house i was under the impression that s**t came before s**te and that S**te was simply a slang variation. Sod I actually think is very effective as its used quite well in its context although its more akin to bugger of the F*** off.

The only words i find out place in da as those which are clearly modern american like 'ass' every time i hear that it breaks immersion a little bit as it sounds so wrong from characters that are meant to be speaking in an English manner.

It would appear you're right, element...

www.etymonline.com/index.php

I was misled by a number of books and games set in medieval times, I guess... lol.

It still sounds too modern to my ears, though, but I guess that's just a question of taste!

[Mr.House]

KLUME777 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...
DAO had no real world swear words. If they did, they were so well placed that i didn't even notice it. I dislike the inclusion of sh*t and others in Dragon Age, because i don't think it fits the setting. It just pulls me out of it and facepalm. I have no problem with it in a real world setting or similar though, as i swear all the time in real life.

EDIT: What DAO did, was perfect. DA2 went too far.

ass, arse, bastard and b*tch where all in DAO. Not to mention sod off was also in DAO and that is a slang for f*ck off. Sh*t in DA2 was placed well because only certain characters used it, you're acting like it was said by everyone and throwen around, and that's simply not the case.

As i said, they used it so well, i didn't even notice, unlike sh*t in DA2. And none of those words are as bad as sh*t, and they actually do fit the setting. Sh*t feels too modern and of our world, not Thedas'. DA2's swearing felt out of context. And sod - I don't see it as f*ck at at all. A lot of words are substitutes for other swear words anyway, but they fell different when used.

Again, DAO got it right, DA2 too far.

SH*t is taken from Sh*te, which is a very old British word. It fits, just because YOU don't feel it fits does not mean anything. Also same with sod, it does not matter if you don't think it means f*ck, the point is it does and no matter how hard to try to convince your self it's not, it won't work.

DAO did not get it right at all, DA2 is on the right track, just include Sh*te and it will be perfect. Also how does sh*t feel out of context in DA2 when the characters that say it or when they say it fits and is logical? Show me where say Beth, Seb and Merrill swear? Show me where Cullen, other Templars, Meredith and the Grand Cleric swear?

It feels out of context, not because they are feeling those emotions (they are), but because where would they know the word "bullsh*t". They don't live on Earth, they live in Thedas, it feels out of place, and it feels modern. They should use a word with equal impact, but specific to their world (Like DAO's plethora of nug humper, Andraste's nickers etc. Make a new one if they have too). Fantasy/Lord of the Rings setting should not be assosiated with the modern meaning words of sh*t and f*ck.

And here we go back in circles.

Sod=F*ck

It's however better, effective and fits better then f*ck

So does arse compared to ass, same with sh*te compared to sh*t. They should have used sh*te since it fits better. Same when characters in DA say bollocks, which is slang for balls/testicals. DA uses a lot of Britian slang, which is why I beleive the writers should have used sh*te, which is more effective and sounds better.

Also sh*t is not a modren word, as just pointed out.

Modifié par Mr.House, 12 août 2011 - 04:35 .

[Aeowyn]

element eater wrote...

dunno S*** is a reasonably old so I have no issue with it @mr house i was under the impression that s**t came before s**te and that S**te was simply a slang variation. Sod I actually think is very effective as its used quite well in its context although its more akin to bugger of the F*** off.

The only words i find out place in da as those which are clearly modern american like 'ass' every time i hear that it breaks immersion a little bit as it sounds so wrong from characters that are meant to be speaking in an English manner.

"Ass" derives from Middle English and its first known use was before the 12th century. It is not a modern American word.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 12 août 2011 - 04:35 .