283 réponses à ce sujet

[ipgd]

Mr.House wrote...

Hmm you could be right, eitherway, Sh*te would be better since it would fit the setting of DA, same with arse. The problem with arse however is that if you read the subtitles, the word is arse but the actors say ass, so it's less about writing and more oft he actor not gettingt he line right.

Arse and ass are practically homophonous for non-rhotic accents (depending on whether they pronounce ass as /æs/ or /ɑs/), and arse is most commonly used in regions dominated by non-rhotic accents, so...

Modifié par ipgd, 12 août 2011 - 04:41 .

[element eater]

^^well in english dialects no one would ever say ass which is to my knowledge a term used almost esclusively in NA and seeing as how the da characters are meant to be speaking in an english manner it is out of place. Especialy as ass has another meaning in our language and is in fact an entirely  differant word to arse.

hmm I wonder if the script the actors read was the same as the one used to subtitle the game. I can't remember if any British VA's ever use it but would be weird if they did and it was scripted as arse.Either way that's the only thing that bothers me in terms of language id realy like to see it changed.

and yeah S**te is fine in fact i think language is generally used very well in DA. it gets the balance just about right and doesn't come across as either to artificial or to vulgar.

Modifié par element eater, 12 août 2011 - 04:46 .

[Tommy6860]

thats1evildude wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Isabela uses "sh*t" at least once, if memory serves. It might be twice actually, but I specifically remember one instance.

Sure, in DA2, but not in Origins. Which is my point: I found the absence of any actual swearing in Origins to be kind of ... forced.

The inclusion of swears actually was an improvement in DA2, as it did help make the dialogue feel more natural. Consider the scene where Cassandra first interrupts Varric's story. Which works better?

"You're lying! That's not what really happened."

"Bull****! That's not what really happened."

The first line seems kinda awkward, IMHO. A lack of strong language can actually undermine some scenes.

This^ guy didn't use foul language for efficacy .

[Mr.House]

Because maybe it does not fit him, everyone is not the same. Some people are vulger, some only swear when upset or annoyed, some don't swear at all and some swear like a truck driver. Which is why DA2 did it better then DAO. The lack of sh*t/sh*te for me was a bit jarring, more so when some characters would use sod off, arse/ass or bastard.

[Sutekh]

KLUME777 wrote...

It feels out of context, not because they are feeling those emotions (they are), but because where would they know the word "bullsh*t". They don't live on Earth, they live in Thedas, it feels out of place, and it feels modern.

I'm going to go out on a limb there and assume they have bovines in Thedas with a standard-working digestive system.

Also, you seem to consider Thedas as a carbon-copy of middle-age Europe. It's not. It's, in fact, whatever the writers want it to be. And anyway, they did swear in middle-age / renaissance Europe, sometimes with words we still use nowadays.

They should use a word with equal impact, but specific to their world (Like DAO's plethora of nug humper, Andraste's nickers etc. Make a new one if they have too). Fantasy/Lord of the Rings setting should not be assosiated with the modern meaning words of sh*t and f*ck.

DA is not Lord of the Ring. The general atmosphere really isn't the same at all (and LotR isn't the only fantasy setting out there anyway), and neither is the writing style. "F*ck" (which is never used), is in fact not so modern a word, and neither is "sh*t".

[ZabiGG]

ipgd wrote...

ZabiGG wrote...

swearing is merely demonstrating lack of vocabulary

Well, it looks like someone beat me to the Stephen Fry thing, so I'll just motion in that direction and make exasperated noises.

Well, I did say that swearing doesn't really bother me and that the saying was a tool I used to bring up/teach manners to a kid...

Exasperate away if you wish, though, my skin's thicker than that

[Aeowyn]

element eater wrote...

^^well in english dialects no one would ever say ass which is to my knowledge a term used almost esclusively in NA and seeing as how the da characters are meant to be speaking in an english manner it is out of place. Especialy as ass has another meaning in our language and is in fact an entirely  differant word to arse.

Funny, the only people I hear around here who uses arse are the Welsh and the Scots. Most people I know say ass. It's not esclusively American, and since the word ass is Middle English... Also, while "ass" has many different meaning, one of them means exactly the same as "arse".

Modifié par Aeowyn, 12 août 2011 - 04:51 .

[aries1001]

As for the swear words, please remember that the games are meant to be set in what is similar to the medieval (middle) age, somewhere in Europe: As such, words such as 'by the maker' could be seen as swear words in the context of the game. The game goes for words such as 'by Andraste.'

I never noticed much swearing in either DA:O or DA:2; I think I've seen Isabella's swear word(s) used once, maybe twice. As for the nudity, I'm fine with it - both in DA2 and TW2. In DA2's case, you only get to see nudity if you click the heart icon in the dialogue wheel. Thus, it is entirely optional. As it should be.

[KLUME777]

Mr.House wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...
DAO had no real world swear words. If they did, they were so well placed that i didn't even notice it. I dislike the inclusion of sh*t and others in Dragon Age, because i don't think it fits the setting. It just pulls me out of it and facepalm. I have no problem with it in a real world setting or similar though, as i swear all the time in real life.

EDIT: What DAO did, was perfect. DA2 went too far.

ass, arse, bastard and b*tch where all in DAO. Not to mention sod off was also in DAO and that is a slang for f*ck off. Sh*t in DA2 was placed well because only certain characters used it, you're acting like it was said by everyone and throwen around, and that's simply not the case.

As i said, they used it so well, i didn't even notice, unlike sh*t in DA2. And none of those words are as bad as sh*t, and they actually do fit the setting. Sh*t feels too modern and of our world, not Thedas'. DA2's swearing felt out of context. And sod - I don't see it as f*ck at at all. A lot of words are substitutes for other swear words anyway, but they fell different when used.

Again, DAO got it right, DA2 too far.

SH*t is taken from Sh*te, which is a very old British word. It fits, just because YOU don't feel it fits does not mean anything. Also same with sod, it does not matter if you don't think it means f*ck, the point is it does and no matter how hard to try to convince your self it's not, it won't work.

DAO did not get it right at all, DA2 is on the right track, just include Sh*te and it will be perfect. Also how does sh*t feel out of context in DA2 when the characters that say it or when they say it fits and is logical? Show me where say Beth, Seb and Merrill swear? Show me where Cullen, other Templars, Meredith and the Grand Cleric swear?

It feels out of context, not because they are feeling those emotions (they are), but because where would they know the word "bullsh*t". They don't live on Earth, they live in Thedas, it feels out of place, and it feels modern. They should use a word with equal impact, but specific to their world (Like DAO's plethora of nug humper, Andraste's nickers etc. Make a new one if they have too). Fantasy/Lord of the Rings setting should not be assosiated with the modern meaning words of sh*t and f*ck.

And here we go back in circles.

Sod=F*ck

It's however better, effective and fits better then f*ck

So does arse compared to ass, same with sh*te compared to sh*t. They should have used sh*te since it fits better. Same when characters in DA say bollocks, which is slang for balls/testicals. DA uses a lot of Britian slang, which is why I beleive the writers should have used sh*te, which is more effective and sounds better.

Also sh*t is not a modren word, as just pointed out.

Sod fits well in the DA universe well, i have no problem with it. Sod is an old word, derived from sodomy (Ie. the Bible). F*ck is associated with much more modern times (however old the word may be, it is associated with modern usage), and so should absolutely not be used in DA. And Sh*te should not replace Sh*t, because neither of them should be used. Really, sh*t is my only problem, im fine with the others, but sh*t just pulls me out of the immersion because it just does not fit the setting for me. It would be like the fellowhsip in LotR start swearing sh*t and f*ck, it just doesn't fit. I don't care what the facts are, some swear words (like sh*t and f*ck) do not fit in a fantasy setting like DA.

Origins got it right. DA2 felt out of hand.

Modifié par KLUME777, 12 août 2011 - 04:55 .

[element eater]

@Aeowyn
i didnt say it was exclusively american it is however a predominantly american in usage. as in most english speaking countrys outside of the U.S and Canada use arse. While i cant speak for were ever you are i can say that arse is the preferred term across Britain and is the original word from which ass is derived. And at a guess i would suggest that its usage in your area may come from american influences rather then the traditional english term (of course that is purely conjecture)  Interestingly the term ass as the Americans use it is generaly considered less taboo in the uk then our own version despite the fact that the meaning is identicle. Even if it was appropriate in terms of usage ass would be to modern of a word to be used in da any way would be completely out of place unless they actualy want to use ass in another variation. 

ass is an old word but the manner in which it is now used is not as old as the word itself 

Modifié par element eater, 12 août 2011 - 05:07 .

[Mr.House]

Stop comparing DA to LotR. They are not the same.

[Aeowyn]

element eater wrote...

i didnt say it was exclusively american it is however a predominantly american in usage. While i cant speak for were ever you are i can say that arse is generally the preferred term across Britain and is the original word from which ass is derived. Even if it wasn't ass would be to modern of a word to be used in da any way would be completely out of place.

ass is an old word but the manner in which it is now used is not as old as the word itself

Well it depends on what context the word was used in, doesn't it? And besides "Andraste's Ass", where else is the word used?

[T764]

Disappointing, i thought this would have been a demand for a British-English localization of the game so that we didn't have to endure misspelt subtitles, American language and accents.

And as for swearing, i don't give a toss.

[element eater]

Aeowyn wrote...
Well it depends on what context the word was used in, doesn't it? And besides "Andraste's Ass", where else is the word used?

lets kick some ass is used in da  i believe and it is used again in da2 if memory serves. it doesnt have to be used often to be out of place after swearing is rare in these games but thats what this thread is discussing

besides it isnt a huge deal but seeing as we were talking about language i  thought i would add my feelings on the matter

Modifié par element eater, 12 août 2011 - 05:11 .

[ipgd]

Regarding anachronism in language -- you know that's basically a moot point, right? For the dialogue to actually make sense to a modern listener, they have to use words that were not around in the middle ages because our grammar and common lexicon has evolved over the years to the point where the old common parlance would be nearly unintelligible to us. You can throw in a few old words for flavor and avoid specific referential anachronisms, but you'd pretty much have to be rid of half the words we use to actually understand what is being said if being "faithful to the time period" were actually a concern. Like the singular use of 'you' and 'your' -- any time that shows up, they're BREAKING THE LANGUAGE!!!

Even beyond that, it's unlikely that the common language in Thedas even is English. Languages don't evolve in a vacuum -- they have entire organic "genealogies" behind them, and that history shapes the actual sounds and words of the language. Because Thedas isn't actually the real world, and has several established conlangs that are not direct copies of existing languages, there is no way that the common language would have evolved to be exactly like English. The geographic distributions of speakers has changed, and what would be its parent languages have changed; it would have evolved into something entirely different, in accordance with the world's own unique languages. In all likelihood, it's just translated for our benefit.

ZabiGG wrote...

Well, I did say that swearing doesn't really bother me and that the saying was a tool I used to bring up/teach manners to a kid...

Exasperate away if you wish, though, my skin's thicker than that

It seems like it would be more truthful to actually explain the concept of differing levels of formality in language and the social value of politeness than essentially scare a child into doing what you want by convincing him he'll become stupid if he uses profanity, but then again, I can't even wrap my head around how the Santa Claus lie is supposed to be acceptable

Modifié par ipgd, 12 août 2011 - 05:14 .

[Aeowyn]

element eater wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
Well it depends on what context the word was used in, doesn't it? And besides "Andraste's Ass", where else is the word used?

lets kick some ass is used in da  i believe and it is used again in da2 if memory serves. it doesnt have to be used often to be out of place after swearing is rare in these games but thats what this thread is discussing

besides it isnt a huge deal but seeing as we were talking about language i  thought i would add my feelings on the matter

Wait...really? I need to replay the games in that case.
Basically, there's "ass" and then there's "ass". Andraste's ass may feel out of place, but then if they say "I've made an ass of myself" it would suit the setting since that's the ass that derives from Middle English, and the Old English word "assa".

[Yrkoon]

Mr.House wrote...

I wonder if most people know that sod is slang for the f-bomb in Britain and anytime a character said sod it, sod off ect they where really saying f*ck off.

DAO used sod alot.

  And yet, Oddly enough, the only people in DA:O  (and DA2) that said "sod" were the ones that didn't have British accents.  Ie.  Dwarves.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 12 août 2011 - 05:52 .

[ZabiGG]

ipgd wrote...

Regarding anachronism in language -- you know that's basically a moot point, right?

snipped

Anachronistic was not the right word, I agree. But the fact remains that, IMO, it felt out of context, especially due to the funny, imaginative and ingenious creations they came up with in the first game.

ipgd wrote...

It seems like it would be more truthful to actually explain the concept of differing levels of formality in language and the social value of politeness than essentially scare a child into doing what you want by convincing him he'll become stupid if he uses profanity, but then again, I can't even wrap my head around how the Santa Claus lie is supposed to be acceptable

What??? That's not even implied in "demonstrates lack of vocabulary". And it remains quite true that, in a lot of instances, people swear for lack of words and would benefit from expressing either distaste, shock, anger and such more precisely. It would avoid a lot of conflict and misunderstandings.

Plus, I don't see lack of vocabulary as stupidity, especially due to the fact that I speak 3 languages and can't memorize the unabridged dictionaries for all of them.

But I give up, because you'll probably misread me again. Thanks for sharing.

[Elhanan]

RE: Cassandra - Again I believe that not having the curse would have been more effective, as she is supposedly close to the Divine; the ruler of the Chantry. She would possibly be more mindful of her status and vocabulary, and this shows her weakness; not her strength. Now what we remember is the verbal assault when it could have been a more chilling approach to have her reign and direct her temper at Varric using another possible threat.

[Yrkoon]

^Cassandra is a Seeker. Not some revered mother. We don't know much about seekers as it is. But we do know that the Chantry is not above employing assassins and the like. So I don't think the whole "she's supposed to be too pious to cuss" argument can work, here.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 12 août 2011 - 05:57 .

[TheJediSaint]

On the topic of the use of language, I would just like to make this point. Vulgarity is not maturity. Any twelve year-old can drop more F-bombs than a B-52, being able to curse does not make one seem adult. I think too many people in the games industry, as well as the entertainment industry in general, do not understand that. Thankfully, Bioware does, which is why their dialogue is often so effective.

[Yrkoon]

TheJediSaint wrote...

On the topic of the use of language, I would just like to make this point. Vulgarity is not maturity. Any twelve year-old can drop more F-bombs than a B-52, being able to curse does not make one seem adult. I think too many people in the games industry, as well as the entertainment industry in general, do not understand that. Thankfully, Bioware does, which is why their dialogue is often so effective.

<sigh>  The real  world  (as opposed to some cartoon, or grade school, or some disney fantasy) is filled with people who cuss.   Whether those people are mature or not is not what we're discussing.  What we're discussing is whether a game should have such characters, or whether it should  simply  ignore  reality and  make believe that there can be a world where no one cusses.

I say it can't.  When a game has Murder, rape, sex, violence of all kinds, kidnapping, war etc, but  on the other hand, everyone is too "mature" to cuss... well,  you do the math.  It doesn't work.  Not well, at least.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 12 août 2011 - 06:18 .

[ipgd]

ZabiGG wrote...

What??? That's not even implied in "demonstrates lack of vocabulary". And it remains quite true that, in a lot of instances, people swear for lack of words and would benefit from expressing either distaste, shock, anger and such more precisely. It would avoid a lot of conflict and misunderstandings.

Plus, I don't see lack of vocabulary as stupidity, especially due to the fact that I speak 3 languages and can't memorize the unabridged dictionaries for all of them.

But I give up, because you'll probably misread me again. Thanks for sharing.

But that is not true at all. Profanity has many special purposes and connotations and effects that cannot be accomplished by other words, specifically because words that are not profane lack the quality of profanity -- and that has nothing to do with "a lack of better words", because those "better" words do not accomplish what profanity does. The weight profanity carries is useful for emphasis or exaggeration or irony or offense and "precision" is not a substitute when precision is not what is actually intended in the meaning the combination of words forms.

Basically, it's a stupid stock phrase that people repeat ad nauseam without actually thinking about what it means. It substitutes shaming the intelligence of people who use profanity for explaining the actual reasons why profanity is or is not acceptable in a given social situation, which is significantly more complex than a manner of profanity "demonstrating lack of vocabulary" (and yet still not something that justifies the use of such a flagrantly inaccurate and insulting simplification). Which is why I will continue to motion at Stephen Fry and make exasperated noises and say things like "go ahead and say Stephen Fry lacks of vocabulary, ****, I dare you". (See how I used profanity to completely change the tone of that sentence in a way that could not be done with a "proper" word!? You don't even have to know what that word was to instantly reassess the attitude and intentions of the sentence, because the very state of being profane carries its own implications.)

Modifié par ipgd, 12 août 2011 - 06:12 .

[esper]

ipgd wrote...

ZabiGG wrote...

What??? That's not even implied in "demonstrates lack of vocabulary". And it remains quite true that, in a lot of instances, people swear for lack of words and would benefit from expressing either distaste, shock, anger and such more precisely. It would avoid a lot of conflict and misunderstandings.

Plus, I don't see lack of vocabulary as stupidity, especially due to the fact that I speak 3 languages and can't memorize the unabridged dictionaries for all of them.

But I give up, because you'll probably misread me again. Thanks for sharing.

But that is not true at all. Profanity has many special purposes and connotations and effects that cannot be accomplished by other words, specifically because words that are not profane lack the quality of profanity -- and that has nothing to do with "a lack of better words", because those "better" words do not accomplish what profanity does. The weight profanity carries is useful for emphasis or exaggeration or irony or offense and "precision" is not a substitute when precision is not what is actually intended in the meaning the combination of words forms.

Basically, it's a stupid stock phrase that people repeat ad nauseam without actually thinking about what it means. It substitutes shaming the intelligence of people who use profanity for explaining the actual reasons why profanity is or is not acceptable in a given social situation, which is significantly more complex than a manner of profanity "demonstrating lack of vocabulary" (and yet still not something that justifies the use of such a flagrantly inaccurate and insulting simplification). Which is why I will continue to motion at Stephen Fry and make exasperated noises and say things like "go ahead and say Stephen Fry lacks of vocabulary, ****, I dare you".

Janeka's Oh sh*t or sh*t - could not have been substituted with another word. A non-profanity just wouldn't get her feeling across properly. It wouldn't be strong enough.
 Also I have studied another langue at university and our first teacher used to say - once you can use another langue's profanities and curses and use them CORRECTLY and in context you know you can speak the langue. 

[leggywillow]

Has this video been posted in here yet?

Stephen Fry on the Joys of Swearing