283 réponses à ce sujet

[Aradace]

I honestly dont see what the deal is with swearing of any kind. Seriously, they're words just like any other. Im sorry but some of the dialog would just lose its "impact" if you implanted a word like "Darn" or "shoot" or "crap" instead of the appropriate explicitive. If you're concerned about your children seeing it/hearing it, then dont let them in the room while playing. Mind you they're going to be exposed to it anyway at school so why bother?

About the only way it would really fry me is if the reason some of you folks were so against profanity was because of "religious" reasons. People swear. You might not, Private Joe Snuffy down the street might not swear, but a good majority of people do and I think it's pretty ate up to try and force the philosophy of "I dont swear so the games I play shouldnt either" on everyone else.

If it realllllllllly offends you that much, then perhaps in their next game, BW should add a toggle (not much different than those that exist in some games already) that allows you to filter out the apparent "Offensive language". "But then I'll just get a bunch of 'bleeps' and what not" etc etc. Well, too bad. That's the trade off. If the profanity offends you enough, you'll deal with the "bleeps" instead of the actual language or you'll turn the filter off.

These arent games made Walt Disney, Warner Bros, or Pixar. You either deal with the language or you dont play them. That simple.

[ZabiGG]

esper wrote...

Janeka's Oh sh*t or sh*t - could not have been substituted with another word. A non-profanity just wouldn't get her feeling across properly. It wouldn't be strong enough.
 Also I have studied another langue at university and our first teacher used to say - once you can use another langue's profanities and curses and use them CORRECTLY and in context you know you can speak the langue. 

I couldn't say for that particular instance, since I can't remember in what context she says it -- I only sided with her once. But my little finger tells me the writers could have been more creative. And that's just my opinion, you are very much entitled to yours.

Funny about your teachers... Mine used to say that when you're able to THINK in a second language instead of having to translate everything in your mind, that's when you become proficient. They never mentioned anything about swearing, but I digress. Heck, I can swear with the best of them, I just TRY not to as best I can, as a personal preference and as a sign of respect for others.

My whole point was and remains this: gratuitous swearing breaks the immersion, especially when more vivid, colourful and intelligent alternatives were plentiful in the first game.

Cheers

Modifié par ZabiGG, 12 août 2011 - 06:34 .

[Captain_Obvious]

I actually prefer profanity to a certain extent in games with mature themes. No profanity is idyllic and unrealistic. I'm not one to cry that absence of profanity "breaks immersion" but I don't think it's realistic.

[LadyJaneGrey]

@ Aradace.  For the record, profanity and nudity don't bother me in a story as long as it fits the characters and setting.  I thought the OP was mostly asking for the writing to be crafted with care and not slump into shock tactics to replace thoughtful writing.  As others have pointed out, profanity, nudity, and even gore are merely tools.  We're just asking they be used thoughtfully.

About this paragraph:

Aradace wrote...

About the only way it would really fry me
is if the reason some of you folks were so against profanity was
because of "religious" reasons. People swear. You might not, Private
Joe Snuffy down the street might not swear, but a good majority of
people do and I think it's pretty ate up to try and force the philosophy
of "I dont swear so the games I play shouldnt either" on everyone else.

Had to chuckle at this.  Firstly, many "religious" people swear and come up with creative curses.  There are some doozies in the Talmud, the Bible, and from different theologians.

Secondly, it's equally valid to flip that argument around.  People who don't like cursing could say "you're trying to force the philosophy of 'I and many other people do swear in real life so the games I play should too' on everyone else."  Both sides boil down to "someone has a different opinion than me.  This cannot stand!" 

In the end, I think we all want the same thing: Good writing and stories that use all the available tools. 

Edit: grammar fail 

Modifié par LadyJaneGrey, 12 août 2011 - 07:13 .

[Elhanan]

Yrkoon wrote...

^Cassandra is a Seeker. Not some revered mother. We don't know much about seekers as it is. But we do know that the Chantry is not above employing assassins and the like. So I don't think the whole "she's supposed to be too pious to cuss" argument can work, here.

Not pious; controlled.

Having Cassandra show her weakness over the length of the interrogation/ narrative is one way to go, I guess. But showing her as more determined, experienced, and cold hearted with solid control over her emotions and tongue may have also been a good presentation; just don't mess with the visuals and VO.

[Cutlass Jack]

Elhanan wrote...

RE: Cassandra - Again I believe that not having the curse would have been more effective, as she is supposedly close to the Divine; the ruler of the Chantry. She would possibly be more mindful of her status and vocabulary, and this shows her weakness; not her strength. Now what we remember is the verbal assault when it could have been a more chilling approach to have her reign and direct her temper at Varric using another possible threat.

I'm going to have to disagree there. She's a Seeker, not a priest. That makes her internal affairs, not the public face of the chantry. It was an interrogation not a sermon. Its her job to know truth from lies, and calling him on it shows that and tells him to stop screwing around and wasting her time.

[Aradace]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

@ Aradace.  For the record, profanity and nudity don't bother me in a story as long as it fits the characters and setting.  I thought the OP was mostly asking for the writing to be crafted with care and not slump into shock tactics to replace thoughtful writing.  As others have pointed out, profanity, nudity, and even gore are merely tools.  We're just asking they be used thoughtfully.

About this paragraph:

Aradace wrote...

About the only way it would really fry me
is if the reason some of you folks were so against profanity was
because of "religious" reasons. People swear. You might not, Private
Joe Snuffy down the street might not swear, but a good majority of
people do and I think it's pretty ate up to try and force the philosophy
of "I dont swear so the games I play shouldnt either" on everyone else.

Had to chuckle at this.  Firstly, many "religious" people swear and come up with creative curses.  There are some doozies in the Talmud, the Bible, and from different theologians.

Also, it's equally valid to flip that argument around.  People who don't like cursing could say "you're trying to force the philosophy of 'I and many other people do swear in real life so the games I play should too' on everyone else."  Both sides boil down to "someone has a different opinion than me.  This cannot stand!" 

In the end, I think we all want the same thing: Good writing and stories that use all the available tools. 

I can respect that but my opinion still stands:  If it is so offensive (as in you dont think it fits the story) then why not simply start a thread asking for a language filter ala Gears of War.  Secondly, I dont typically deal with "religious" types (aka bible thumpers) so admittedly, I was using a bit of rhetoric there.  Regardless, I think my point was clear.  Thirdly, its only equally valid to flip it around and say the same thing essentially if by doing so, the company doesnt lose profits in the exchange.  Not saying that would be the case for %100 certain.  Not even I could predict the certainty of that outcome.  Seriously, words like "crap" and "Darn it" etc really tend to take away from a scene and just dont have the same impact, as I said before, as the appropriate explicitive.  Even words like "Bullocks" or "sodding" start losing their effect after being used more than a handful of times. 

I guess what Im saying is this;  tone down the language if BW thinks its absolutely neccessary.  But dont do it to such a point that it feels like a saturday morning cartoon special.  You may feel this is a cop-out but here it is anyway.  I have my first amendment rights of "free speech", and by the eight and one I use them to their fullest extent.  It just rubs me a little raw when someone starts trying to tell writers/authors that they essentially shouldnt be excercising this right by using "alternative" language.  Where you see the term "alternative" as a good thing, I see it as another word for "censorship".  And Im not a big fan of censorship to begin with.

[ZabiGG]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I'm going to have to disagree there. She's a Seeker, not a priest. That makes her internal affairs, not the public face of the chantry. It was an interrogation not a sermon. Its her job to know truth from lies, and calling him on it shows that and tells him to stop screwing around and wasting her time.

That's a great example of a moment when an angry:

"Stop wasting my time!"

delivered in the exact, same tone, would have had more meaning than the mere shock value of the BS, which adds nothing to intensity or point there.

[Aradace]

ZabiGG wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I'm going to have to disagree there. She's a Seeker, not a priest. That makes her internal affairs, not the public face of the chantry. It was an interrogation not a sermon. Its her job to know truth from lies, and calling him on it shows that and tells him to stop screwing around and wasting her time.

That's a great example of a moment when an angry:

"Stop wasting my time!"

delivered in the exact, same tone, would have had more meaning than the mere shock value of the BS, which adds nothing to intensity or point there.

Actually, for me, it wouldnt have had the same impact...Just saying.

[Cutlass Jack]

Aradace wrote...

Actually, for me, it wouldnt have had the same impact...Just saying.

Not just for her character, but for Varric's as well. It was important to make it perfectly clear that Varric was a Bullsh*tter. Its an essential part of who he is, but the player wouldn't know that yet.

Especially in the aftermath of the exaggarated intro, which ran the risk of making it seem like Hawke wasn't the player's character. And by 'Risk' I mean that's exactly what it did. So that illusion needed to be dispelled in the harshest manner possible.

[ZabiGG]

Aradace wrote...

Actually, for me, it wouldnt have had the same impact...Just saying.

That's fine, and I guess it's a question of perspective. But in Varric's situation -- being held against his will and not knowing what Cassandra intends to do with him at this point -- I'd take the implied threat of "Stop wasting my time" way more seriously than just being called on a lie (BS).

edit: misplaced comma.

Modifié par ZabiGG, 12 août 2011 - 07:36 .

[Aradace]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Actually, for me, it wouldnt have had the same impact...Just saying.

Not just for her character, but for Varric's as well. It was important to make it perfectly clear that Varric was a Bullsh*tter. Its an essential part of who he is, but the player wouldn't know that yet.

Especially in the aftermath of the exaggarated intro, which ran the risk of making it seem like Hawke wasn't the player's character. And by 'Risk' I mean that's exactly what it did. So that illusion needed to be dispelled in the harshest manner possible.

Precisely.  In most of these so called "uncalled for" cases folks are complaining about, it is, in fact, neccessary.  Because it's an integral part of that character.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Aradace wrote...
Where you see the term "alternative" as a good thing, I see it as another word for "censorship".  And Im not a big fan of censorship to begin with.

Neither am I; where did I say or imply "alternative" or "censorship"?

[Aradace]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Aradace wrote...
Where you see the term "alternative" as a good thing, I see it as another word for "censorship".  And Im not a big fan of censorship to begin with.

Neither am I; where did I say or imply "alternative" or "censorship"?

You may not have "directly" implied censorship.  But by suggesting an "alternative" use of language (noble as your purpose may be) instead of so called "over use of swearing", it implies censorship.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Aradace wrote...

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Aradace wrote...
Where you see the term "alternative" as a good thing, I see it as another word for "censorship".  And Im not a big fan of censorship to begin with.

Neither am I; where did I say or imply "alternative" or "censorship"?

You may not have "directly" implied censorship.  But by suggesting an "alternative" use of language (noble as your purpose may be) instead of so called "over use of swearing", it implies censorship.

Oh, goodie, we can read other poster's minds now?  Or did I make a post I missed? 

All I've said is I LIKE what Bioware's writers have done in the past and hope they keep it up.  I haven't censored or bowdlerized anybody's artistic expression or stepped on anybody else's first amendment rights or said anyone else's opinion was wrong.

[Sutekh]

ZabiGG wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I'm going to have to disagree there. She's a Seeker, not a priest. That makes her internal affairs, not the public face of the chantry. It was an interrogation not a sermon. Its her job to know truth from lies, and calling him on it shows that and tells him to stop screwing around and wasting her time.

That's a great example of a moment when an angry:

"Stop wasting my time!"

delivered in the exact, same tone, would have had more meaning than the mere shock value of the BS, which adds nothing to intensity or point there.

The very fact that she uses an expletive is there to show how exasperated she is at that moment. "Stop wasting my time" wouldn't have conveyed this at all. For emotions to pass, you need tone and words. Not everything can be toned down, smoothed to the "socially acceptable" level for the sake of remaining "correct". When properly used, swearing is a powerful tool, and it's a good thing.

If I were in Varric's shoes and someone as apparently well-mannered as Cassandra cursed at me, I'd be much more afraid than if she said the same thing politely, because it shows how little patience she has left. It really is a case of cursing used appropriately and perfectly.

Besides, the whole "it's unnecessary" thing reminds me very much of "too many notes, Mr Mozart" or "Cover it up, Michaelangelo." when in the name of an arbitrary good taste and keeping things tame and for everyone, art and literature is muffled and watered down. The result is often something tepid. Still understandable, but losing strength and meaning in the process.

[Aradace]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Aradace wrote...

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Aradace wrote...
Where you see the term "alternative" as a good thing, I see it as another word for "censorship".  And Im not a big fan of censorship to begin with.

Neither am I; where did I say or imply "alternative" or "censorship"?

You may not have "directly" implied censorship.  But by suggesting an "alternative" use of language (noble as your purpose may be) instead of so called "over use of swearing", it implies censorship.

Oh, goodie, we can read other poster's minds now?  Or did I make a post I missed? 

All I've said is I LIKE what Bioware's writers have done in the past and hope they keep it up.  I haven't censored or bowdlerized anybody's artistic expression or stepped on anybody else's first amendment rights or said anyone else's opinion was wrong.

Im not saying you specifically have said this...But there are those in this thread that have.

[ZabiGG]

Sutekh wrote...

The very fact that she uses an expletive is there to show how exasperated she is at that moment. "Stop wasting my time" wouldn't have conveyed this at all. For emotions to pass, you need tone and words. Not everything can be toned down, smoothed to the "socially acceptable" level for the sake of remaining "correct". When properly used, swearing is a powerful tool, and it's a good thing.

-- snipped --

That's one way of seeing it, and I repeat:

I'm not against profanity; I'm for intelligent and crafty writing that uses it as a device when called for as opposed to for shock value only.

The irony is that if the situation was reversed and a tour de force had been accomplished with a dialogue totally free of swearing (and it is possible without being artificial or catering to kids only; not only that, you probably wouldn't even notice), I don't believe there'd be a post begging for some.

Vulgarity, whether it is expressed in words or acts, will grate some people's sensibilities. It will, therefore, always be exposed to criticism. So the best way to avoid criticism [edit: when you're trying to appeal to the masses] is taking that same human nature into account and playing around those sensibilities. 

Of course, criticism is what makes the world progress. So I guess it's not that bad in the end, is it?

Cheers

Modifié par ZabiGG, 12 août 2011 - 08:41 .

[leggywillow]

ZabiGG wrote...
Vulgarity, whether it is expressed in words or acts, will grate some people's sensibilities. It will, therefore, always be exposed to criticism. So the best way to avoid criticism is taking that same human nature into account and playing around those sensibilities. 

Of course, criticism is what makes the world progress. So I guess it's not that bad in the end, is it?

Everyone is going to be offended by something, and at some point Bioware needs to the draw the line of when it becomes ridiculous to pander to people.  People who flail and cover their ears at the word "bull****" probably have no business playing a Bioware game in the first place, to be honest.  If someone's delicate sensibilities are troubled by profanity, I can't imagine how they could handle the other topics mentioned in the game like rape and child murder.

[ZabiGG]

@leggy

hence my edit... I guess I wasn't expressing my thought clearly enough.

[Ariella]

Aradace wrote...

I honestly dont see what the deal is with swearing of any kind. Seriously, they're words just like any other. Im sorry but some of the dialog would just lose its "impact" if you implanted a word like "Darn" or "shoot" or "crap" instead of the appropriate explicitive. If you're concerned about your children seeing it/hearing it, then dont let them in the room while playing. Mind you they're going to be exposed to it anyway at school so why bother?

About the only way it would really fry me is if the reason some of you folks were so against profanity was because of "religious" reasons. People swear. You might not, Private Joe Snuffy down the street might not swear, but a good majority of people do and I think it's pretty ate up to try and force the philosophy of "I dont swear so the games I play shouldnt either" on everyone else.

If it realllllllllly offends you that much, then perhaps in their next game, BW should add a toggle (not much different than those that exist in some games already) that allows you to filter out the apparent "Offensive language". "But then I'll just get a bunch of 'bleeps' and what not" etc etc. Well, too bad. That's the trade off. If the profanity offends you enough, you'll deal with the "bleeps" instead of the actual language or you'll turn the filter off.

These arent games made Walt Disney, Warner Bros, or Pixar. You either deal with the language or you dont play them. That simple.

Ardace, you're missing the point. This isn't about censorship at all, and I wasn't asking for a something to toggle swearing on and off. I am saying there is much more to mature language and mature subject matter than just swear words. It's possible to deal with subjects in mature ways without resorting to swearing.

Swears, like other exclaimations in language, are hammers. Sometimes a writer needs a hammer because it's appropriate to the situation or character. But hammers aren't always called for, and when thes exclaimations become too distracting and take the reader/player out of their immersion, that's when it's time to rethink word choice. Not because of censorship, but because the writer has basically failed at that point.

Language is more than words on a page or a screen. If a writer does it right he or she can conjure almost the exact images that the writer sees in the reader's/player's mind. If the writer does it wrong, the vast majority of the time, it's a case of word choice, and I'm not just talking swearing. Bad phrasing, use of immature words, or just the wrong word can ruin a scene as easily as a bad brushstroke can ruin a painting or a mistuned instrument can ruin a piece of music.

I just want Bioware to continue to use the full range of language rather than fall into the trap that says a mature title must have swearing to be considered M.

Modifié par Ariella, 12 août 2011 - 09:11 .

[ZabiGG]

@ariella

Beautifully and eloquently said. Thank you.

[Ariella]

ZabiGG wrote...

@ariella

Beautifully and eloquently said. Thank you.

You're welcome. I just want to reassure people this isn't an attack on freedom of speech, but the opposite: excourging the use of language to its fullest extent.

[LT123]

Ariella wrote...

Ardace, you're missing the point. This isn't about censorship at all, and I wasn't asking for a something to toggle swearing on and off. I am saying there is much more to mature language and mature subject matter than just swear words. It's possible to deal with subjects in mature ways without resorting to swearing.

Swears, like other exclaimations in language, are hammers. Sometimes a writer needs a hammer because it's appropriate to the situation or character. But hammers aren't always called for, and when thes exclaimations become too distracting and take the reader/player out of their immersion, that's when it's time to rethink word choice. Not because of censorship, but because the writer has basically failed at that point.

Language is more than words on a page or a screen. If a writer does it right he or she can conjure almost the exact images that the writer sees in the reader's/player's mind. If the writer does it wrong, the vast majority of the time, it's a case of word choice, and I'm not just talking swearing. Bad phrasing, use of immature words, or just the wrong word can ruin a scene as easily as a bad brushstroke can ruin a painting or a mistuned instrument can ruin a piece of music.

I just want Bioware to continue to use the full range of language rather than fall into the trap that says a mature title must have swearing to be considered M.

Agreed. Well said.

DAO used swears as hammers really well. I remember Alistair doing it twice: insulting Morrigan during the gossip conversation ("She's a complete and utter b----- so no, I don't like her at all") and during his conversation at the Denerim gates ("Let's find that archdemon and kick its a----"). Since he never swore otherwise, it really made an impact.

And the Warden, if male, can get a really great one during the ritual conversation: "D---- it, Morrigan, I'll do it myself." Kudos to whoever put that in.

And I liked the setting-specific curses--Maker's breath, Andraste's knickerweasels, etc.

I would rather have those than gratuitous swearing. Thanks for not using the f-word in DA2.

[Elhanan]

Elhanan wrote...

Not pious; controlled.

Having Cassandra show her weakness over the length of the interrogation/ narrative is one way to go, I guess. But showing her as more determined, experienced, and cold hearted with solid control over her emotions and tongue may have also been a good presentation; just don't mess with the visuals and VO.

This seemed to have been missed by the Quote patrol.

It does not matter if Cassandra was a Seeker or secretary; hanging around the Divine and being a part of such an entourage would seem to require the needed ettiquette and demeanor.

I wouild have rather seen Cassandra as only losing control of her temper towards the final stages of the narrative; not at the start. Varric should be seen as a master storyteller and manipulator; slowly gaining her confidence over time.

BTW - Pls trim those Quote pyramids; only you can prevent florist friars.