283 réponses à ce sujet

[Hurbster]

Meh, the language is fine. The language in the Witcher games suits them as well. The world of the Witcher is simply a darker, nastier place than Thedas.

[Firky]

Firky wrote...

Much as I would usually think DGs word was law, I disagree. In W2 the overabundance of swearing was great. Mental blank and iPad I can't use. What's the word for it? Like "frack" in BattleStar Galactica or "plough" in Witcher 2. F bomb combined with that FTW.

Just ignore me quoting myself, here.

Minced oath!

(Like swearing without the swearing.)


(PS. I have no idea, why I said "I disagree" in that other post, because that makes no sense. DG just outlined their approach. I think I meant "I want more swearing" except  that I probably, actually don't. But, I really like an overabundance of "Minced Oaths" because, then when someone actually swears, it seems to have much more impact. For me, anyway. I wonder why. I can remember a couple of swear words being dropped in DAII and I remember them taking me completely by surprise.)

Modifié par Firky, 12 août 2011 - 11:01 .

[ZabiGG]

^^
Must be my bad and defective foreign mind, but I really don't understand this.

and
@Elhanan

I really wanted to say you were spot on, and I wholeheartedly agree, but I felt I was already too present to say so. I apologize.

No matter how much bashing I will receive from this, cursing and swearing are not figures of style and are a poor way of adding emphasis/meaning when there are so many other choices, especially due to the wealth, the richness and the genius of the English language.

This said, since words have brought bread and butter to my table for the past 20 years -- in another language, mind you --, I will not call it laziness but lack of time. And I can honestly say that the only times I HAD to (didn't say CHOSE to) use profanity in print was when quoting the statements of murderers, child abusers or people of very, very little education in newspapers. But I guess I'm just old school.

I'm just surprised that the complexity, the richness and the utter genial and thrilling "umph" of your language is not used at its best.

Modifié par ZabiGG, 12 août 2011 - 11:05 .

[element eater]

Aeowyn wrote...

Wait...really? I need to replay the games in that case.
Basically, there's "ass" and then there's "ass". Andraste's ass may feel out of place, but then if they say "I've made an ass of myself" it would suit the setting since that's the ass that derives from Middle English, and the Old English word "assa".

yeh, dont quote me on that though i may have misremembered it but think its something along those lines

but yeh what you say is pretty spot on:D

[Zoikster]

Swearing just doesn't bother me. I hear it in my every day life from mature, to immature people alike. I tend to /eyeroll at those who get uptight about swearing; this coming from someone who rarely does it. Swearing is just expcted in our lives, I wouldn't expect it any different in theirs. Picking a video game with gore, and grey decisions probably isn't the time to be a prude.

I suppose it's an indidivual judgement call. Some think swearing and maturity are mutually exclusive, I don't.

Modifié par Zoikster, 12 août 2011 - 11:33 .

[Ariella]

Hurbster wrote...

Meh, the language is fine. The language in the Witcher games suits them as well. The world of the Witcher is simply a darker, nastier place than Thedas.

Hurbster,

Maybe it's the translation, but I've read Last Wish and don't remember the same amount of swearing that comes through in the games. In fact, the book makes Geralt out to be more intelligent and guileful than the games do. He also seems to have more of a sense of humor.

As I said, it could be the translation since I'm reading the book in English not Polish.

And yes, the language is fine, but like all things, I'd like to see Bioware push the envelope not just in the techincal sense but in the intellectual sense. I've found most are the people here are pretty smart, probably between highly gifted and genius range if they were to be measured. In otherwords, Bioware's general fanbase has the capasity to think, to learn quickly, and to be made to think about themes, character and issues. A major way of doing that is through language.

[Aradace]

Ariella wrote...

Aradace wrote...

I honestly dont see what the deal is with swearing of any kind. Seriously, they're words just like any other. Im sorry but some of the dialog would just lose its "impact" if you implanted a word like "Darn" or "shoot" or "crap" instead of the appropriate explicitive. If you're concerned about your children seeing it/hearing it, then dont let them in the room while playing. Mind you they're going to be exposed to it anyway at school so why bother?

About the only way it would really fry me is if the reason some of you folks were so against profanity was because of "religious" reasons. People swear. You might not, Private Joe Snuffy down the street might not swear, but a good majority of people do and I think it's pretty ate up to try and force the philosophy of "I dont swear so the games I play shouldnt either" on everyone else.

If it realllllllllly offends you that much, then perhaps in their next game, BW should add a toggle (not much different than those that exist in some games already) that allows you to filter out the apparent "Offensive language". "But then I'll just get a bunch of 'bleeps' and what not" etc etc. Well, too bad. That's the trade off. If the profanity offends you enough, you'll deal with the "bleeps" instead of the actual language or you'll turn the filter off.

These arent games made Walt Disney, Warner Bros, or Pixar. You either deal with the language or you dont play them. That simple.

Ardace, you're missing the point. This isn't about censorship at all, and I wasn't asking for a something to toggle swearing on and off. I am saying there is much more to mature language and mature subject matter than just swear words. It's possible to deal with subjects in mature ways without resorting to swearing.

Swears, like other exclaimations in language, are hammers. Sometimes a writer needs a hammer because it's appropriate to the situation or character. But hammers aren't always called for, and when thes exclaimations become too distracting and take the reader/player out of their immersion, that's when it's time to rethink word choice. Not because of censorship, but because the writer has basically failed at that point.

Language is more than words on a page or a screen. If a writer does it right he or she can conjure almost the exact images that the writer sees in the reader's/player's mind. If the writer does it wrong, the vast majority of the time, it's a case of word choice, and I'm not just talking swearing. Bad phrasing, use of immature words, or just the wrong word can ruin a scene as easily as a bad brushstroke can ruin a painting or a mistuned instrument can ruin a piece of music.

I just want Bioware to continue to use the full range of language rather than fall into the trap that says a mature title must have swearing to be considered M.

I fail to see how the "swearing" in any case in DA2 "breaks immersion".

[Firky]

ZabiGG wrote...

^^
Must be my bad and defective foreign mind, but I really don't understand this.

It's when you pop in a harmless word instead of a swear word but (essentially) you use it in the same way.

I think it can have different effects.

In Battlestar Galactica, "frak" or "frack" or however you spell it, was used in exactly the same context as the real F-word but, because it's not the F-word, they were able to use it a LOT, and it compounded to paint a really brutal impression of the society. The sheer volume of "fraks" desensitised you to it, then someone would yell, "Frak you" and punch someone, and it hammered the message home. (Or, as was my interpretation.)

In Witcher 2, they used "plough" in place of the F-word, and they used it a lot. I think they used it to paint the humans as, sort of, bumbling, "ploughing" idiots. They could be profane without actually coming across as too menacing. If you think about it, the word "plough" kind of innately has sexual connotations, too and "ploughing" as a concept is actually quite deep; technology's impact on the land, etc. I think it was a great choice of "Minced Oath." Then, of course, someone would actually use the real F-word and it has impact because you were expecting "plough." The F-word isn't actually surprising, though, because there's a whole layer of "ploughs" already there.

"Minced Oaths" are everywhere. Cripes, Jeepers, D'Oh, poppycock. Personally, I love them.

[Zoikster]

Firky wrote...

ZabiGG wrote...

^^
Must be my bad and defective foreign mind, but I really don't understand this.

It's when you pop in a harmless word instead of a swear word but (essentially) you use it in the same way.

I think it can have different effects.

In Battlestar Galactica, "frak" or "frack" or however you spell it, was used in exactly the same context as the real F-word but, because it's not the F-word, they were able to use it a LOT, and it compounded to paint a really brutal impression of the society. The sheer volume of "fraks" desensitised you to it, then someone would yell, "Frak you" and punch someone, and it hammered the message home. (Or, as was my interpretation.)

In Witcher 2, they used "plough" in place of the F-word, and they used it a lot. I think they used it to paint the humans as, sort of, bumbling, "ploughing" idiots. They could be profane without actually coming across as too menacing. If you think about it, the word "plough" kind of innately has sexual connotations, too and "ploughing" as a concept is actually quite deep; technology's impact on the land, etc. I think it was a great choice of "Minced Oath." Then, of course, someone would actually use the real F-word and it has impact because you were expecting "plough." The F-word isn't actually surprising, though, because there's a whole layer of "ploughs" already there.

"Minced Oaths" are everywhere. Cripes, Jeepers, D'Oh, poppycock. Personally, I love them.

I laughed so hard with the use of plough in place of the F word. Ingenious.

Modifié par Zoikster, 12 août 2011 - 11:48 .

[ZabiGG]

I still don't get it, and I'm mainstream (considering I play all types of games based on whim -- i.e. if I feel like revenge or getting anger out, I'll play a FPS or zombie annihilation games, or if I feel like getting my intellect to work, I'll go for fleshy, more intellectual games)... so what does it tell ya?

[Gibb_Shepard]

Nothing wrong with it, swearing often makes for a more impactful scene, it makes a character's personality and it can really bring the setting to life (like TW2).

Even in Deadwood (The series with the most cussing of all time) the cussing had it's place. Swearing in a game in a dark fantasy setting should not break any kind of immersion, unless you are somewhat squeemish when it comes to cussing.

Hell, the f-bomb would of made many scenes in dragon age 2 and origins MUCH more impactful.

[TheRealJayDee]

Zanallen wrote...

I really don't understand this desire for nudity and cursing that people seem to desire. And the most used excuses of "I'm an adult so I can handle it" or "Its a mature rated game so it should be mature" are just silly. Over using f bombs and panty shots seems more immature than mature to me. As such, I agree in a way. If Bioware is going to have cursing, have it make sense, be consistent with the character and use it effectively.

You must really dislike the incredibly immature Isabela design then...

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 13 août 2011 - 12:28 .

[Ariella]

Aradace wrote...

I fail to see how the "swearing" in any case in DA2 "breaks immersion".

Okay, when someone uses the f-bomb t's going to catch your attention, and put the focus on the curse word. It becomes all about the f-bomb and not about what else the person is saying.

I'm not saying this happened in DA2, in fact, I think the Denizens of the Writing Pit managed a good balance.

But it can become either a distraction or lose impact if over used, and either way that either breaks or diminishes immersion because they stop paying attention to the language either out of shock or out of over familiarity.

I can point you at what I think is the best example of word play and cursing I've ever seen in media. It's from the West Wing Season 2, and it's Martin Sheen's monologue in the season finale where he tells G-d off in the middle of the National Cathedral. Yes, Aaron Sorkin got around the censors by having most of the swearing in Latin, but it's a beautiful piece that shows a man in crisis turning on the one thing he always turned to for comfort: his faith. I find it to be one of the most, if not the most, powerful scene I've ever seen on television. It's mature, believable and heart rending.

I aspire to write like that, and I'd hope the writers I enjoy would also aspire to write like that. To push their creativity, their talent, and their techincal skills to the farthest they can go. Curse words are a tool, but they're just one tool in the whole box writers have to make their audience feel.

[ZabiGG]

@TheRealJayDee

No matter, Isabela is very much a stereotype. And a much publicized one at that. And I personally hate my name being trampled in the mud like that -- forgive my French. I'm a ****, but not a ****. So there.

[ZabiGG]

b*tch but not a w*ore

[Ariella]

Firky wrote...

ZabiGG wrote...

^^
Must be my bad and defective foreign mind, but I really don't understand this.

It's when you pop in a harmless word instead of a swear word but (essentially) you use it in the same way.

I think it can have different effects.

In Battlestar Galactica, "frak" or "frack" or however you spell it, was used in exactly the same context as the real F-word but, because it's not the F-word, they were able to use it a LOT, and it compounded to paint a really brutal impression of the society. The sheer volume of "fraks" desensitised you to it, then someone would yell, "Frak you" and punch someone, and it hammered the message home. (Or, as was my interpretation.)

In Witcher 2, they used "plough" in place of the F-word, and they used it a lot. I think they used it to paint the humans as, sort of, bumbling, "ploughing" idiots. They could be profane without actually coming across as too menacing. If you think about it, the word "plough" kind of innately has sexual connotations, too and "ploughing" as a concept is actually quite deep; technology's impact on the land, etc. I think it was a great choice of "Minced Oath." Then, of course, someone would actually use the real F-word and it has impact because you were expecting "plough." The F-word isn't actually surprising, though, because there's a whole layer of "ploughs" already there.

"Minced Oaths" are everywhere. Cripes, Jeepers, D'Oh, poppycock. Personally, I love them.

Jim Butcher used plough instead of screw or other euphamisms for sex in his Codex Alera series. It actually makes sense in that context because it's an agricultural based society and came from earth before certain acronyms had even come into use.

And yes, the use of the word plough makes sense, but not only in the technological impact on the land, but a more basic function: one has to plough to plant seeds, which then grow into a harvest. Very basic reproduction imagery there.

[Ariella]

ZabiGG wrote...

@TheRealJayDee

No matter, Isabela is very much a stereotype. And a much publicized one at that. And I personally hate my name being trampled in the mud like that -- forgive my French. I'm a ****, but not a ****. So there.

Could be worse. I keep finding that my name is used for murder vics on TV lately. I'm not dead yet!

[Elhanan]

This bit of dialogue from 'Speed' - a film filled with cursing - often speaks to my thoughts on the subject:

Howard Payne: See, I'm in charge here! I drop this stick, and they pick your friend here up with a sponge! Are you ready to die, friend?
Harry: F*** you!
Howard Payne: Oh! In two hundred years we've gone from "I regret but I have one life to give for my country" to "F*** you!"?

I prefer intelligent and civil discourse over profanity and 'It sucks' type of expression.

[leggywillow]

ZabiGG wrote...

@TheRealJayDee

No matter, Isabela is very much a stereotype. And a much publicized one at that. And I personally hate my name being trampled in the mud like that -- forgive my French. I'm a ****, but not a ****. So there.

You hate your name being attached to an adventurous, strong woman who has enough self-confidence to not deny herself what she wants and bend to society's rules?  Isabela isn't a stereotype, since most hypersexual female characters are that way due to self-esteem issues that the love of a good man can cure or some crap like that.  Isabela is who she is and makes no excuses for it, which is something enviable.

[ipgd]

ZabiGG wrote...

@TheRealJayDee

No matter, Isabela is very much a stereotype. And a much publicized one at that. And I personally hate my name being trampled in the mud like that -- forgive my French. I'm a ****, but not a ****. So there.

Wow, incredible. This forum can never have enough slut shaming! Stay classy.

I long for the day where a woman demonstrating sexual agency does not inspire this kind of ridiculous and judgmental fear and derision. Sex is not evil, people, and insulting women who dare to enjoy having it is ignorant and infuriating.

[ZabiGG]

@leggy

seriously? grow up. I can assume myself very well. Just not the semi-personality attached to the fact that all females born from 1969 to 1972 were named a derivative of Isabela because it was merely a trend.

[Sutekh]

ZabiGG wrote...

No matter how much bashing I will receive from this, cursing and swearing are not figures of style and are a poor way of adding emphasis/meaning when there are so many other choices, especially due to the wealth, the richness and the genius of the English language.

I certainly won't bash you for your opinion, but you totally forget about characterization and mood setting. Hearing a character who by all logical standards (education, mood, behavior, situation, personality) should be swearing using another set of words just because they exist simply doesn't make sense. It's like saying they should all express themselves with perfect grammar and accurate vocabulary, because "You was there" isn't a figure of style.

The creative use of words and language is like any form of art; it's alive. It's not something defined once and for all by a rigid set of rules which everyone should obey no matter what. Once the rules are fixed forever, the language dies. Stripping a whole part of a language vocabulary because it's deemed "incorrect" and can shock people isn't a good thing at all. Expletive and slurs are part of a language identity, and often representative of a given period and historical context. If used appropriately (and this is the key word), they can tell a lot and convey much more than their tamest equivalent or a polite paraphrase. To clarify, I'm speaking of putting words in a character's mouth, btw, not defending the use of slurs IRL.

If you really think cursing and swearing is the "poor way", you're dismissing the work of many authors, from nearly the beginning of fiction. I shudder to think what the "better choice" would have made to some books which are now considered classic masterworks. It would be (well-intentioned) vandalism.

Also,

b*tch but not a w*ore

And after all that, you don't hesitate to use slurs many people would deem sexist and offensive. Because this is exactly a case when swearing wasn't necessary to get your point across. 

[Rinji the Bearded]

ZabiGG wrote...

@leggy

seriously? grow up. I can assume myself very well. Just not the semi-personality attached to the fact that all females born from 1969 to 1972 were named a derivative of Isabela because it was merely a trend.

You're angry/ashamed because your name is the same as a character who happens to be a very strong and beautiful character who enjoys sex?  And what does the fact that it was a naming trend have to do with anything?

Perhaps you should swing that judgmental pendulum the other way, just saying.

[leggywillow]

ZabiGG wrote...

@leggy

seriously? grow up. I can assume myself very well. Just not the semi-personality attached to the fact that all females born from 1969 to 1972 were named a derivative of Isabela because it was merely a trend.

I am pretty sure you're making this up, since graphs and census data show that "Isabella" and "Isabela" and other variants thereof weren't particular popular in the years you stated.  Certainly not enough for there to be a personality attached to it.  In fact, I'm pretty sure the only person who pops into most people's heads when they hear that name is Isabella Swan of Twilight infamy, who is the opposite of Bioware's awesome Isabela in every way.  So I think the purity of your good name is still intact.

[ZabiGG]

ipgd wrote...

I long for the day where a woman demonstrating sexual agency does not inspire this kind of ridiculous and judgmental fear and derision. Sex is not evil, people, and insulting women who dare to enjoy having it is ignorant and infuriating.

Seriously, IPGD, I never attacked you personally, while you kept being intent on misreading me. For someone who should definitely have an open mind, you do quite the job. When I said I gave up on you, I did. Please stop intruding.