146 réponses à ce sujet

[Golden Owl]

Well, as some of you would be aware, I have made my utter dislike of Miranda fairly clear in a number of threads....most often generally try to remain diplomatic, so may have not been that clear....Anyways, to the point:

My severe dislike of Miranda has been really bugging me, as it doesn't make a lot of sense to get so wound up about a pixelated personality...doesn't in real life either in fact...so I have been wondering just what is it that winds me up so much about her and why. I mentioned it to a friend yesterday...she's studying a councilling course of sorts...and we decided to examine it...Yes, hating on a fictional character that much really bugs me enough to do this.

Well, my friend I examined a number of possibilities and wound up with how much Miranda reminds me of the students I faced in the private all girls high school I had the unfortunate experience of attending...I am 40 now, so this goes back some what....So we had a look at that and FINALLY an answer....Despite my personal feelings about Miranda, I never renegaded Sheps responses to her (aside from turning down her advance of course and didn't want to be nasty about that either)...I really do love those conversations Shep has with her in regards to how she defines herself....Shep telling her its what she does with those gifts that define her, etc....its good for Miranda to hear that, I find it rather sad the way she views herself..... But whats missing, for me anyway is Sheps opportunity to encourage her in a paragon way to re-examine how she responds to and treats others also...I do see Miranda as ruthless and heartless...but the dialog wheel denies this possiblity...(sister does not count, I'm speaking social, not personal empathy)....My personal issue is, I never got the chance with the girls I schooled with and haven't been given the chance here again.....Now since realizing why Miranda eats at me so badly, the beauty is though I will never be a Miranda fan, but I'm not feeling that hate anymore either, the best I can hope for is neutral towards her, but in writing this, I'm actually starting to care about her.

I have really got to take my hat off to BW....their character representations in ME are fantastic...to have so many gamers react so strongly...love, hate, like, dislike, etc...to the NPC's displays an incredible talent on the writers team....Well done BW, very impressive.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 12 août 2011 - 03:10 .

[Rockworm503]

I don't let any character get to me. I used to hate Kaiden and Ashley and it started to annoy me so my latest playthrough I romanced Ashley and now none of it bothers me. Of course nothing I say or do will change the character rape on Horizon so I just shrug it off like they were having their period and move on.

[LadyJaneGrey]

It is surprising how strongly personal experiences can color everything, even how we view video game characters. For me, ME, MEII, and DAII each have a character whom I can appreciate intellectually and even wish well in future endeavors, but I still cannot like.

[Youknow]

Well to be fair, characters are generally based off of real people, so if you don't like certain traits in real life, it's only natural that you'd dislike the same traits displayed by someone else... Whether the being in question is real or not.

I for one still don't particularly care for Miranda. The line where she basically says "Niket made me kill him, but I didn't want to" if you don't paragon interrupt her, is enough to make me hate her (that was the final straw for me). I've known far too many people that have done things like this. It was your choice, don't make it out to be the other person's fault because you wronged them. I mean, she reminds me so much of a person I know that I dislike so much... Largely because their "Niket made me do it" had my life at stake, but I guess that I didn't matter enough. Just the fact that THEY were hurt. And it wasn't like anything bad would have happened to them if they hadn't done what they did, but no... Betrayal of trust is far more fun.

It's nice to get down to the root of your problems though, it might not be nearly as irrational in the future.

[Golden Owl]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

It is surprising how strongly personal experiences can color everything, even how we view video game characters. For me, ME, MEII, and DAII each have a character whom I can appreciate intellectually and even wish well in future endeavors, but I still cannot like.

Exactly!........well said LadyJane....though for myself, I tend to find dislike fades away also, once I realize why I'm reacting, neutral is the usual outcome.

[Golden Owl]

Youknow wrote...

Well to be fair, characters are generally based off of real people, so if you don't like certain traits in real life, it's only natural that you'd dislike the same traits displayed by someone else... Whether the being in question is real or not.

I for one still don't particularly care for Miranda. The line where she basically says "Niket made me kill him, but I didn't want to" if you don't paragon interrupt her, is enough to make me hate her (that was the final straw for me). I've known far too many people that have done things like this. It was your choice, don't make it out to be the other person's fault because you wronged them. I mean, she reminds me so much of a person I know that I dislike so much... Largely because their "Niket made me do it" had my life at stake, but I guess that I didn't matter enough. Just the fact that THEY were hurt. And it wasn't like anything bad would have happened to them if they hadn't done what they did, but no... Betrayal of trust is far more fun.

It's nice to get down to the root of your problems though, it might not be nearly as irrational in the future.

Thank you Youknow...yes, exactly.

I have always triggered Miranda at that point, I didn't know she says that and I agree with you view, the "made me do it" line, I'm still trying to teach my youngest daughter that reasoning doesn't wash.

[HogarthHughes 3]

I lost interest in Miranda when she got nice on the Normandy, an ice queen would have been great fun.  Oh and I really didn't like how she is so perturbed by the thought of giving Cerberus the Collector Base.   She is the ruthless Cerberus cheerleader the entire game, but when it comes to preserving the technology of the enemy in order to learn from it we've gone too far?   Her loyalty to Cerberus and TIM fall apart because of minor moral qualms about preserving technology that was used to kill innocents?  (which is nothing compared to other things Cerberus has done, not even counting rogue Cells like Pragia)

Still, at the very least she isn't a goody-two-shoes.  Miranda is okay, I would have much more respect for her though if she stuck to her guns better and weren't so quick to get chummy with Shepard.  Not that I have a problem with characters being amicable, but given her and Shepards interactions in the shuttle and the Cerberus base I was hoping there could be a rivalry of sorts brewing.  Instead she is very friendly and quickly opens up about her self-esteem/daddy issues.

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 12 août 2011 - 04:02 .

[ThePwener]

He's bugged by people deeply liking her but he deeply hates dislikes her? It's the same thing.

[Quole]

I hate people that hate hating her.

[Youknow]

Saphra Deden wrote...

After seeing Miranda's reaction to Niket's betrayal/death and hearing her air her feelings on her sister how can you see her as heartless?

Personally I don't hate any of the characters in either of the games though there are some I like a lot less than others. Samara would be the big one for me as I just find her boring to talk to. I do dislike her morals and I view her desire to kill Morinth as selfish, but if I hated at her at least I'd care about her.

Miranda grew on me throughout the game. At first she was really ****y but over time she warmed up and became someone I mostly trusted and respected.

I think a really good scene with Miranda that you might have never seen is the one you get if you don't romance anybody. Prior to the Suicide Mission she approaches you and offers encouragement, telling you she knows you will lead them all to victory. It comes across as very genuine to me.

I think she's a good person at heart, just very practical and protective of herself.

How do you get that scene? I have a Sheperd that doesn't have a romance, and that didn't happen. 

[Seboist]

I love Miranda as a character and as a person but what I don't like about her is the inconsistent characterization like the quick personality shift from pre-FP to Normandy and her not endorsing keeping the CB.

[Clonedzero]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Youknow wrote...

How do you get that scene? I have a Sheperd that doesn't have a romance, and that didn't happen. 

I'm not aware of any prequesite. I've gotten it in any play-through where I didn't romance anybody. I've only done that a few times though.

Come to think of it, it might have been with my original import who is male and sacrificed Ashley on Virmire and never romanced Liara. Thus if he romanced nobody in ME2 he didn't even get the scene with the picture frame.

hmm, now im curious to see that. you wouldnt happen to have a link for that scene would you?

[Seboist]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

I lost interest in Miranda when she got nice on the Normandy, an ice queen would have been great fun.  Oh and I really didn't like how she is so perturbed by the thought of giving Cerberus the Collector Base.   She is the ruthless Cerberus cheerleader the entire game, but when it comes to preserving the technology of the enemy in order to learn from it we've gone too far?   Her loyalty to Cerberus and TIM fall apart because of minor moral qualms about preserving technology that was used to kill innocents?  (which is nothing compared to other things Cerberus has done, not even counting rogue Cells like Pragia)

Still, at the very least she isn't a goody-two-shoes.  Miranda is okay, I would have much more respect for her though if she stuck to her guns better and weren't so quick to get chummy with Shepard.

It's very bizarre given the fact that she defends the experiments on Husks on the basis of "they were already dead".

[Golden Owl]

ThePwener wrote...

He's bugged by people deeply liking her but he deeply hates dislikes her? It's the same thing.

??....

[Fata Morgana]

Seboist wrote...

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

I lost interest in Miranda when she got nice on the Normandy, an ice queen would have been great fun.  Oh and I really didn't like how she is so perturbed by the thought of giving Cerberus the Collector Base.   She is the ruthless Cerberus cheerleader the entire game, but when it comes to preserving the technology of the enemy in order to learn from it we've gone too far?   Her loyalty to Cerberus and TIM fall apart because of minor moral qualms about preserving technology that was used to kill innocents?  (which is nothing compared to other things Cerberus has done, not even counting rogue Cells like Pragia)

Still, at the very least she isn't a goody-two-shoes.  Miranda is okay, I would have much more respect for her though if she stuck to her guns better and weren't so quick to get chummy with Shepard.

It's very bizarre given the fact that she defends the experiments on Husks on the basis of "they were already dead".

After many replays, the feel I get from Miranda, taking all her character parts as a whole is: Self-confident naivete. She thinks she knows exactly what's going on, and most of the time she has no idea. She things she's always right when 90% of the time she's hilariously wrong.

She defended the husk thing because most likely she's never seen a living person forced onto a spike and turned into a husk; she's only seen the resulting husks. Moreover, she heard about the project third hand, and because she "knows" that TIM is not a bad person, she accepted his explanation for events.  But when she's at the Collector Base, she doesn't have a dry, third-hand report explaning everything to her; instead, she actually had to sit and watch while humans were liquified to make that thing. Consequently, she rejects the horror and sides with Paragon Shepard. 

Because of her comedic wrongness, I no longer hate Miranda the way I used to. She puts on this pose of perfection, probably because in reality she has low self-esteem. That's my read. 

[ThePwener]

Golden Owl wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

He's bugged by people deeply liking her but he deeply hates dislikes her? It's the same thing.

??....

They are two opposite extremes. He dislikes people who like her because she is a video game character, yet he does the same in the opposite direction by disliking her.

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

After seeing Miranda's reaction to Niket's betrayal/death and hearing her air her feelings on her sister how can you see her as heartless?

Personally I don't hate any of the characters in either of the games though there are some I like a lot less than others. Samara would be the big one for me as I just find her boring to talk to. I do dislike her morals and I view her desire to kill Morinth as selfish, but if I hated at her at least I'd care about her.

Miranda grew on me throughout the game. At first she was really ****y but over time she warmed up and became someone I mostly trusted and respected.

I think a really good scene with Miranda that you might have never seen is the one you get if you don't romance anybody. Prior to the Suicide Mission she approaches you and offers encouragement, telling you she knows you will lead them all to victory. It comes across as very genuine to me.

I think she's a good person at heart, just very practical and protective of herself.

Oriana is her sister...I'm talking about Miranda expanding her circle of empathy beyond she and her close relation....c'mon Saphra, you know enough about how I think to know that doesn't wash with me.

Yes, Miranda's scene with unromanced Shep is a good one...as my Shep remains always romance free, I am quite familier with that scene....and yes, I agree, it is genuine.

[Golden Owl]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

I lost interest in Miranda when she got nice on the Normandy, an ice queen would have been great fun.  Oh and I really didn't like how she is so perturbed by the thought of giving Cerberus the Collector Base.   She is the ruthless Cerberus cheerleader the entire game, but when it comes to preserving the technology of the enemy in order to learn from it we've gone too far?   Her loyalty to Cerberus and TIM fall apart because of minor moral qualms about preserving technology that was used to kill innocents?  (which is nothing compared to other things Cerberus has done, not even counting rogue Cells like Pragia)

Still, at the very least she isn't a goody-two-shoes.  Miranda is okay, I would have much more respect for her though if she stuck to her guns better and weren't so quick to get chummy with Shepard.  Not that I have a problem with characters being amicable, but given her and Shepards interactions in the shuttle and the Cerberus base I was hoping there could be a rivalry of sorts brewing.  Instead she is very friendly and quickly opens up about her self-esteem/daddy issues.

I agree...it doesn't fit.

[ubermensch007]

I don't see Miranda's belief that destroying the Coolector Base was out of character -- If you take into consideration what she saw happen to the Cerberus team sent to research the Derelict Reaper...

I believe that that is the moment wher her veiws of Cerberus changed."No matter the cost" Is not something that she believes in anymore.And  to piggy back on what Saphra has said.Miranda is more my friend and sister than love interest in Mass Effect 2.And I too really like the scene prior to the Suicide Mission when she salutes Commander Shepard and smiles at him.The look on her face is as one who has just had a great weight or burden removed off their shoulders.

I look forward to seeing how much of a postive influence Shepard has on Ms.Lawson in Mass Effect 3.Hopefully to the point where she starts to value her crewmates and not see them as expendable...

Other than having the gall to tell Shepard to his face that she would have prefered to enslave him to Cerberus will.How she as Project Lead had so little if any concern or remorse about leaving those on the Lazarus Station behind.Really rubed me the wrong way. <_<

That whole "control chip" diatribe she gave to Shepard.Is so Goddamn Hypocritical -- after you hear her tell you about how her own father treated her like a slave.Yet b/c she sees Shepard being enslaved as being for the "good of Humanity" it makes it okay in her mind.That was pretty damn outrageous!!

But I let that sh!t slide, once I got to know her better and realized how good she was to have on my team in combat...

[Golden Owl]

Fata Morgana wrote...

Seboist wrote...

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

I lost interest in Miranda when she got nice on the Normandy, an ice queen would have been great fun.  Oh and I really didn't like how she is so perturbed by the thought of giving Cerberus the Collector Base.   She is the ruthless Cerberus cheerleader the entire game, but when it comes to preserving the technology of the enemy in order to learn from it we've gone too far?   Her loyalty to Cerberus and TIM fall apart because of minor moral qualms about preserving technology that was used to kill innocents?  (which is nothing compared to other things Cerberus has done, not even counting rogue Cells like Pragia)

Still, at the very least she isn't a goody-two-shoes.  Miranda is okay, I would have much more respect for her though if she stuck to her guns better and weren't so quick to get chummy with Shepard.

It's very bizarre given the fact that she defends the experiments on Husks on the basis of "they were already dead".

After many replays, the feel I get from Miranda, taking all her character parts as a whole is: Self-confident naivete. She thinks she knows exactly what's going on, and most of the time she has no idea. She things she's always right when 90% of the time she's hilariously wrong.

She defended the husk thing because most likely she's never seen a living person forced onto a spike and turned into a husk; she's only seen the resulting husks. Moreover, she heard about the project third hand, and because she "knows" that TIM is not a bad person, she accepted his explanation for events.  But when she's at the Collector Base, she doesn't have a dry, third-hand report explaning everything to her; instead, she actually had to sit and watch while humans were liquified to make that thing. Consequently, she rejects the horror and sides with Paragon Shepard. 

Because of her comedic wrongness, I no longer hate Miranda the way I used to. She puts on this pose of perfection, probably because in reality she has low self-esteem. That's my read. 

True....good point Fata.

[Seboist]

Fata Morgana wrote...

Seboist wrote...

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

I lost interest in Miranda when she got nice on the Normandy, an ice queen would have been great fun.  Oh and I really didn't like how she is so perturbed by the thought of giving Cerberus the Collector Base.   She is the ruthless Cerberus cheerleader the entire game, but when it comes to preserving the technology of the enemy in order to learn from it we've gone too far?   Her loyalty to Cerberus and TIM fall apart because of minor moral qualms about preserving technology that was used to kill innocents?  (which is nothing compared to other things Cerberus has done, not even counting rogue Cells like Pragia)

Still, at the very least she isn't a goody-two-shoes.  Miranda is okay, I would have much more respect for her though if she stuck to her guns better and weren't so quick to get chummy with Shepard.

It's very bizarre given the fact that she defends the experiments on Husks on the basis of "they were already dead".

After many replays, the feel I get from Miranda, taking all her character parts as a whole is: Self-confident naivete. She thinks she knows exactly what's going on, and most of the time she has no idea. She things she's always right when 90% of the time she's hilariously wrong.

She defended the husk thing because most likely she's never seen a living person forced onto a spike and turned into a husk; she's only seen the resulting husks. Moreover, she heard about the project third hand, and because she "knows" that TIM is not a bad person, she accepted his explanation for events.  But when she's at the Collector Base, she doesn't have a dry, third-hand report explaning everything to her; instead, she actually had to sit and watch while humans were liquified to make that thing. Consequently, she rejects the horror and sides with Paragon Shepard. 

Because of her comedic wrongness, I no longer hate Miranda the way I used to. She puts on this pose of perfection, probably because in reality she has low self-esteem. That's my read. 

I really doubt a woman who's worked with Cerberus for so long and is one of the few agents to get the honor of meeting TIM in person in his space station would be so naive and ignorant about such things. This is also the same person who after gunning down Wilson and Niket (if you let her) engages in deadpan humor right after.

Modifié par Seboist, 12 août 2011 - 04:18 .

[breakdown71289]

Saphra Deden wrote...

After seeing Miranda's reaction to Niket's betrayal/death and hearing her air her feelings on her sister how can you see her as heartless?

Personally I don't hate any of the characters in either of the games though there are some I like a lot less than others. Samara would be the big one for me as I just find her boring to talk to. I do dislike her morals and I view her desire to kill Morinth as selfish, but if I hated at her at least I'd care about her.

Miranda grew on me throughout the game. At first she was really ****y but over time she warmed up and became someone I mostly trusted and respected.

I think a really good scene with Miranda that you might have never seen is the one you get if you don't romance anybody. Prior to the Suicide Mission she approaches you and offers encouragement, telling you she knows you will lead them all to victory. It comes across as very genuine to me.

I think she's a good person at heart, just very practical and protective of herself.

I agree.....I think she's the one person who i never would have expected to have surprised me so pleasantly throughout the game. I remember that i was so dead set in thinking that she was this ruthless ice queen that i was never going to even care for, that when she finally came around to sharing her story with me, I no longer felt any distaste for her. She really turned around as a character for me, and now i feel really good bringing her into ME3 as my LI 

[Golden Owl]

ThePwener wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

He's bugged by people deeply liking her but he deeply hates dislikes her? It's the same thing.

??....

They are two opposite extremes. He dislikes people who like her because she is a video game character, yet he does the same in the opposite direction by disliking her.

I didn't say I dislike the people who like her....never understood why they liked her....but never said I dislike them.