146 réponses à ce sujet

[HogarthHughes 3]

Seboist wrote...

Another oddity about Miranda's character is that the shadow broker dossier describes her as "obsessed with human dominance" but she didn't come off like that at all. She comes off as more moderate than the SR-1 crew regarding aliens.

I never really saw that obsession myself either.  Ashley seemed much more "speciesist/nationalist" (with some xenophobia thrown in for good measure), but she is the one vehemently opposed to Cerberus (moreso than then the alien crewmembers ).  Of course, she is a high ranking member of Cerberus, by definition that pretty much means she has to be very pro-human.

[Seboist]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Another oddity about Miranda's character is that the shadow broker dossier describes her as "obsessed with human dominance" but she didn't come off like that at all. She comes off as more moderate than the SR-1 crew regarding aliens.

I never really saw that obsession myself either.  Ashley seemed much more "speciesist/nationalist" (with some xenophobia thrown in for good measure), but she is the one vehemently opposed to Cerberus (moreso than then the alien crewmembers ).  Of course, she is a high ranking member of Cerberus, by definition that pretty much means she has to be very pro-human.

Considering how Cerberus was such an irrelevant non-entity in the first game it's jarring how Ashley,Anderson and the Council are so bent out of shape about them and consider them some great big threat.

[Tonymac]

I think Miranda is defensive, thats all. Her father hurt her, she had no mom, and she had to put it all on the line and cut loose.... but it makes you wonder. She did not have it in her just to do it for herself maybe, but she did it for her sister.

I suppose we all get out of it what we want to. I went through the options as paragon and as renegade, and found her to be a delight from both perspectives.

With no Miranda your galaxy is not getting saved. Of my about 50 playthroughs, she is my LI for all but about 4 runs.

[CC-Tron]

Fata Morgana wrote...

She was naive enough not to realize that Niket betrayed her even though it was obvious. She was naive enough to think that she would be strong in creating a biotic shield as a 1,000 year old Justicar or the most powerful human biotic in existance.

I don't like Miranda but she was right about the biotic shield. If you notice all the biotics are able to maintain the shield and get Shep and company to the doors (which was the objective). The only difference really is the biotic blast that loyal Jack or Samara hit the collectors with at the end.

The only reason one of the squadmates gets taken by seeker swarms is because they foolishly lag behind to get off a few more shots at the collectors.

[LiaraShepard]

Well, Miranda reminds me of an INTJ (Myers Briggs type indicator) whose third function 'Introverted Feeling' is underdevelopped and only serves her strong Introverted Intuition instead of serving itself. The same goes for her Extraverted Thinking function. She uses it to pick out who might be useful or not and who's a potential threat to her goals. Miranda is very intuitive and has no problems to see trough peoples' motivations. But she isn't able to recognize how they feel or how she feels herself. If she sees feelings in herself, she tries to explain them by logic, because of her second function 'Extroverted Thinking'. That's why she seems to be hard-hearted and cold.
As all INTJ's, Miranda is very disciplinated and wants to make her goals become true. Instead of INTP's, she doesn't want the things to be theoretical. Although she's able to think in a very abstract manner, she wants to turn her ideas into the reality. She's a natural leader although she will only talk to others if it's necessary. Otherwise, she will stand in the background and think about new strategies. Miranda is independent and self-confident. But on the other hand, she always thinks that she's right and often judges about others without knowing them well. That's the problem of INTJ's whose other functions are underdevelopped and slaves of their Intuition.
And because she was always told to be special and more powerful than others, the difference in her personality functions even increased. Both her dad and Cerberus treated her like a superwoman. Now, it's even harder for her to accept weakness. But as demanding as she seems to be, Miranda still expect more from herself than from others. She's very perfectionist and afraid to disappoint the high expectations that other people have of her. Maybe it's because there was never someone who loved her personality. She was always treated like a machine, and now, she uses it to get other peoples' respect. Respect isn't love, but it's the only way of affection she knows. She hates her dad for what he has done. But she still wanted to gain his love at the same time. And because he didn't want a daughter whose personality is loveable but a powerful respected super-child, she still wants to gain other peoples' respect unconsciously to compensate the love that she didn't get from her dad. But since her feeling function is underdevelopped she tries to explain it by logic. Okay, maybe that's too much psychology lol. But Miranda is a very extreme and deep character. It's fun to think about her, though she's hard to understand.

Modifié par LiaraShepard, 12 août 2011 - 12:17 .

[PiercedMonk]

I was actually suprised at how little I disliked Miranda as the game progressed. All the promo material leading up to the game painted her as a bit of a self-important ****, and while that aspect of her personality does exist, it's not nearly so over whelming as I thought it would be.

Her killing Wilson doesn't sit well with me -- and until LotSB I wasn't convinced that he actually betrayed anyone -- but in game she seems to quickly go from acerbic ice queen to competant and occasionally sympathetic proffesional.

Not my favourite character by any means -- though she does see a fair amount of action as I generally take both her and Jacob along on the recruiting missions -- but I don't activily dislike her as I do Samara and Morinth.

[Clonedzero]

being completely honest. miranda has some of the best character development in the series.
other characters develop pretty well, but she develops in a more subtle believable way.

its not a huge 180 degree turn for her character like with some of the others, i think thats really good.

[Rogue Unit]

Fata Morgana wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Fata Morgana wrote...

Seboist wrote...

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

I lost interest in Miranda when she got nice on the Normandy, an ice queen would have been great fun.  Oh and I really didn't like how she is so perturbed by the thought of giving Cerberus the Collector Base.   She is the ruthless Cerberus cheerleader the entire game, but when it comes to preserving the technology of the enemy in order to learn from it we've gone too far?   Her loyalty to Cerberus and TIM fall apart because of minor moral qualms about preserving technology that was used to kill innocents?  (which is nothing compared to other things Cerberus has done, not even counting rogue Cells like Pragia)

Still, at the very least she isn't a goody-two-shoes.  Miranda is okay, I would have much more respect for her though if she stuck to her guns better and weren't so quick to get chummy with Shepard.

It's very bizarre given the fact that she defends the experiments on Husks on the basis of "they were already dead".

After many replays, the feel I get from Miranda, taking all her character parts as a whole is: Self-confident naivete. She thinks she knows exactly what's going on, and most of the time she has no idea. She things she's always right when 90% of the time she's hilariously wrong.

She defended the husk thing because most likely she's never seen a living person forced onto a spike and turned into a husk; she's only seen the resulting husks. Moreover, she heard about the project third hand, and because she "knows" that TIM is not a bad person, she accepted his explanation for events.  But when she's at the Collector Base, she doesn't have a dry, third-hand report explaning everything to her; instead, she actually had to sit and watch while humans were liquified to make that thing. Consequently, she rejects the horror and sides with Paragon Shepard. 

Because of her comedic wrongness, I no longer hate Miranda the way I used to. She puts on this pose of perfection, probably because in reality she has low self-esteem. That's my read. 

I really doubt a woman who's worked with Cerberus for so long and is one of the few agents to get the honor of meeting TIM in person in his space station would be so naive and ignorant about such things. This is also the same person who after gunning down Wilson and Niket (if you let her) engages in deadpan humor right after.

She was naive enough not to realize that Niket betrayed her even though it was obvious. She was naive enough to think that she would be strong in creating a biotic shield as a 1,000 year old Justicar or the most powerful human biotic in existance.

Naive doesn't mean 'innocent', per se. It can just mean having a lack of judgement, which Miranda shows time and again. Even being willing to shoot Wilson without first trying to find out more about why he sabotaged project lazarus is part of that poor judgement. 

I don't really fault Miranda for not believing Niket betrayed her. It natural that someone wouldn't want to believe that someone they trust has betrayed them, just like Tali and her situation with her father.

And she did mantain the biotic barriar just as long and Samara and Jack. The only difference is that she couldn't produce the biotic blast that scambled the collectors like Jack and Samara. Besides, the team member who gets snatched is slightly at fault here because they were lagging behind.

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 12 août 2011 - 03:16 .

[Collider]

Clonedzero wrote...

being completely honest. miranda has some of the best character development in the series.
other characters develop pretty well, but she develops in a more subtle believable way.

its not a huge 180 degree turn for her character like with some of the others, i think thats really good.

I couldn't disagree more.

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Another oddity about Miranda's character is that the shadow broker dossier describes her as "obsessed with human dominance" but she didn't come off like that at all. She comes off as more moderate than the SR-1 crew regarding aliens.

To be fair Miranda never really talks about her own politics. She likes Cerberus for their noble goals, but the way she talks about it comes across as her more admiring them as an outsider, in a way.

Yeah, she does sort of sound like a Cerberus groupie than someone who's supposed be a long time agent who's risen up the ranks to be in TIM's inner circle at times.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Miranda is a fantastically developed character, but I still don't like her. I can't empathise to her, and I can't warm up to her. In fact, personally, I find her character to be very antagonistic to my Shepards.

However, those who say they don't like Miranda, or hate her, need to bear in mind that evoking a strong opinion is what makes an effectively developed character. Whether that opinion is negative or postitive.

I hope I warm to Miranda in ME3 though, I see a lot of potential in her character arc.

[young fox]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Miranda is a fantastically developed character, but I still don't like her. I can't empathise to her, and I can't warm up to her. In fact, personally, I find her character to be very antagonistic to my Shepards.

However, those who say they don't like Miranda, or hate her, need to bear in mind that evoking a strong opinion is what makes an effectively developed character. Whether that opinion is negative or postitive.

I hope I warm to Miranda in ME3 though, I see a lot of potential in her character arc.

Agreed. That she can bring forth so much hate is just a sign that she's clearly written excellently. She has potential for a great arc, so I'm eager to see which direction they'll go in ME3 - it'll either be ten times the hate or ten times the fanboyism. Or perhaps both.

I think what really made me dislike her, was her blatant disregard for what Jack had been put through, even though their situations were so similar: forced by an authority (Cerberus/father) into becoming a superhuman (powerful biotic/perfect woman). How can she not see the similarity? Or is she just self-loathing and projecting herself unto Jack?

[Bourne Endeavor]

Fata Morgana wrote...

Seboist wrote...

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

I lost interest in Miranda when she got nice on the Normandy, an ice queen would have been great fun.  Oh and I really didn't like how she is so perturbed by the thought of giving Cerberus the Collector Base.   She is the ruthless Cerberus cheerleader the entire game, but when it comes to preserving the technology of the enemy in order to learn from it we've gone too far?   Her loyalty to Cerberus and TIM fall apart because of minor moral qualms about preserving technology that was used to kill innocents?  (which is nothing compared to other things Cerberus has done, not even counting rogue Cells like Pragia)

Still, at the very least she isn't a goody-two-shoes.  Miranda is okay, I would have much more respect for her though if she stuck to her guns better and weren't so quick to get chummy with Shepard.

It's very bizarre given the fact that she defends the experiments on Husks on the basis of "they were already dead".

After many replays, the feel I get from Miranda, taking all her character parts as a whole is: Self-confident naivete. She thinks she knows exactly what's going on, and most of the time she has no idea. She things she's always right when 90% of the time she's hilariously wrong.

She defended the husk thing because most likely she's never seen a living person forced onto a spike and turned into a husk; she's only seen the resulting husks. Moreover, she heard about the project third hand, and because she "knows" that TIM is not a bad person, she accepted his explanation for events.  But when she's at the Collector Base, she doesn't have a dry, third-hand report explaning everything to her; instead, she actually had to sit and watch while humans were liquified to make that thing. Consequently, she rejects the horror and sides with Paragon Shepard. 

Because of her comedic wrongness, I no longer hate Miranda the way I used to. She puts on this pose of perfection, probably because in reality she has low self-esteem. That's my read. 

This would only suffice were Miranda not a pragmatic woman who always views things from a logical perspective not an emotional one. Her rejection of TIM could derive from the multitude of asinine line of reasoning he utilizes, and therefore believes Shepard is who will look out for humanity's best interest. Her agreement to destroy the base however, it a blatant contradiction to her character, someone who sees the larger picture and not blinded by idealism. Sadly, she is one of many who do precisely that, with Mordin being the most egregious example but alas the choice is ridiculous anyway.

With regards to the topic at hand, I am personally of the opposite mind TC. I heavily respect Miranda and understand, even agree, with the rationality behind her decisions. Would I go to Cerberus' lengths? Likely not, however when you press her on the experimentation preformed, her argument has merit. If they could breed Rachni as obedient soldiers, many lives could be spared. Granted, this was prior to their discovery they were a competent species. Dr. Archer's exploits are similar, and despite the horrific nature of his work, he had a worthwhile intent, one I support.

Miranda may initially come across as your typical ice queen but based on her upbringing, the life led preceding Cerberus and even the one thereafter. Can you fault her distant and cold approach? You spend your childhood being indirectly told how inferior you are, it will make trusting people henceforth a monumental task. Her romance arc demonstrates just how fragile and human the woman is. She will never be the type to open up to large numbers of people but at a gradual pace she might soften. Shepard was only one of the few who Miranda felt she could lower her guard around.

Perhaps I fancy her because we can relate, albeit my home life was significantly better, I had my issues as a kid. Moreover I always like confident, independent women, and her pragmatism emulates my own. Could she lighten a bit? Of course, but I foresee so much potential in her character, which is primarily why I like her.

[Ieldra]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
This would only suffice were Miranda not a pragmatic woman who always views things from a logical perspective not an emotional one. Her rejection of TIM could derive from the multitude of asinine line of reasoning he utilizes, and therefore believes Shepard is who will look out for humanity's best interest. Her agreement to destroy the base however, it a blatant contradiction to her character, someone who sees the larger picture and not blinded by idealism. Sadly, she is one of many who do precisely that, with Mordin being the most egregious example but alas the choice is ridiculous anyway.

It is surprising that this appears to be seen more clearly by those who don't romance her as a rule. I can only hope that her out-of-character moment at the CB isn't a sign of things to come. That would have the potential for ruining her for me. I like that pragmatism and her ability to see the bigger picture and act accordingly. For the same reason, Mordin is another of my favorite characters.

And I can relate to MIranda partly because I have the same preference for rationality over emotion (even if I don't always manage that when things get heated here). Also it isn't that often that you have an intelligent, competent and independent woman in a game. Lastly, I also very much appreciate her genetic engineering. It appeals to the transhumanist in me.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 août 2011 - 09:25 .

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

su66otnik wrote...

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Miranda is a fantastically developed character, but I still don't like her. I can't empathise to her, and I can't warm up to her. In fact, personally, I find her character to be very antagonistic to my Shepards.

However, those who say they don't like Miranda, or hate her, need to bear in mind that evoking a strong opinion is what makes an effectively developed character. Whether that opinion is negative or postitive.

I hope I warm to Miranda in ME3 though, I see a lot of potential in her character arc.

Agreed. That she can bring forth so much hate is just a sign that she's clearly written excellently. She has potential for a great arc, so I'm eager to see which direction they'll go in ME3 - it'll either be ten times the hate or ten times the fanboyism. Or perhaps both.

I think what really made me dislike her, was her blatant disregard for what Jack had been put through, even though their situations were so similar: forced by an authority (Cerberus/father) into becoming a superhuman (powerful biotic/perfect woman). How can she not see the similarity? Or is she just self-loathing and projecting herself unto Jack?

Definately! However, with women it is often similarities that make them feel the need to compete, and so rubs them apart anyway .

But yes, hating a character is still a sign of great character writing! As is loving a character.

[Cypher0020]

I must admit I liked Miri from the get go..... despite my Femshep being an Pro-alliance/council she's considered Miranda one of her closest friends during ME2

Not to mention she finds the Pre SM speech endearing, especially the salute. Given Miri's history and stance with Cerberus, Teddy finds the salute very touching

[Quething]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Would I go to Cerberus' lengths? Likely not, however when you press her on the experimentation preformed, her argument has merit. If they could breed Rachni as obedient soldiers, many lives could be spared. Granted, this was prior to their discovery they were a competent species.

... they were spacefaring. They had starships. It is fairly common knowledge that they are a sentient species.

I like Miranda, personally, but it was a little hard to get there due to the bizarre personality swap she and Jacob undergo once you hit the Normandy. If she'd taken longer to open up and respect Shepard and been more consistent in challenging her, she'd have come across as a stronger character to me. As it is, I have to fill in a lot of gaps in her writing with fanon.

[Made Nightwing]

LiaraShepard wrote...

Well, Miranda reminds me of an INTJ (Myers Briggs type indicator) whose third function 'Introverted Feeling' is underdevelopped and only serves her strong Introverted Intuition instead of serving itself. The same goes for her Extraverted Thinking function. She uses it to pick out who might be useful or not and who's a potential threat to her goals. Miranda is very intuitive and has no problems to see trough peoples' motivations. But she isn't able to recognize how they feel or how she feels herself. If she sees feelings in herself, she tries to explain them by logic, because of her second function 'Extroverted Thinking'. That's why she seems to be hard-hearted and cold.
As all INTJ's, Miranda is very disciplinated and wants to make her goals become true. Instead of INTP's, she doesn't want the things to be theoretical. Although she's able to think in a very abstract manner, she wants to turn her ideas into the reality. She's a natural leader although she will only talk to others if it's necessary. Otherwise, she will stand in the background and think about new strategies. Miranda is independent and self-confident. But on the other hand, she always thinks that she's right and often judges about others without knowing them well. That's the problem of INTJ's whose other functions are underdevelopped and slaves of their Intuition.
And because she was always told to be special and more powerful than others, the difference in her personality functions even increased. Both her dad and Cerberus treated her like a superwoman. Now, it's even harder for her to accept weakness. But as demanding as she seems to be, Miranda still expect more from herself than from others. She's very perfectionist and afraid to disappoint the high expectations that other people have of her. Maybe it's because there was never someone who loved her personality. She was always treated like a machine, and now, she uses it to get other peoples' respect. Respect isn't love, but it's the only way of affection she knows. She hates her dad for what he has done. But she still wanted to gain his love at the same time. And because he didn't want a daughter whose personality is loveable but a powerful respected super-child, she still wants to gain other peoples' respect unconsciously to compensate the love that she didn't get from her dad. But since her feeling function is underdevelopped she tries to explain it by logic. Okay, maybe that's too much psychology lol. But Miranda is a very extreme and deep character. It's fun to think about her, though she's hard to understand.

Huh, I got rated as an ESTJ. I pointed out to the shrink that I have plenty of feelings and emotions, I'm just good at keeping them under wraps where they won't affect me. Miranda's the same.

[ladyvader]

Saphra Deden wrote...

When TIM ordered Miranda to stop Shepard at the end of the game she should have pulled a gun on you if her loyalty mission hadn't been completed. Perhaps with the other squadmate knocking her off the platform or something.

I found that odd that she doesn't do that.  She tells TIM to stuff it and cuts communication.  Then after all of that, she dies.  Unloyal Miri anyway.

[MisterJB]

su66otnik wrote...
I think what really made me dislike her, was her blatant disregard for what Jack had been put through, even though their situations were so similar: forced by an authority (Cerberus/father) into becoming a superhuman (powerful biotic/perfect woman). How can she not see the similarity? Or is she just self-loathing and projecting herself unto Jack?

If Shepard questions Miranda about it in private, she will admit that what happened in Pragia was a mistake on Cerberus' part not hers.
The real problem was Jack's attitude who was demanding an answer from Miranda, accusing the entirety of Cerberus instead of just that one rogue cell and Miranda along with it, threatening her life and just being plain rude.

[1136342t54_]

Saphra Deden wrote...

What does it matter if you kill becuase of your religion, because you are paid to, or because it makes you feel better?

While I was reading I did just want to respond to this and keep on going until I was done.

Thane I don't think was really paid for killing others. A Drell assassin was basically brought up to be assassin at a very young age. Thane always killed for the Hanar. They used him to fight pirates, mercenaries and others who would threaten them period. When his wife died he obviously killed for revenge and tortured those responsible for it.

Samara was a Justicar who is basically put into a organization in which the training and teachings is so harsh and brutal most die in the training. Its to the point where anyone who is a Justicar basically has two minds in a way.The normal them who may disagree with what they have to do but they know that by killing those who go against the code is ultimately the right thing to do and the code is their higher power. Hell it isn't like the code necessarily says kills civillians but if they are in the way of the 'greater good' then its necessary to them. In a way they are like very renegade Spectres. Hell their existence likely does more good than harm. The presence of a Justicar will scare the **** out of everyone to the point where they will do the right thing.

Now I know you mentioned Kasumi at one point and to be honest she never mentioned killing anyone to steal something. its likely she had to do it but the people she steal from are more like the scum of the galaxy half the time.

Morinth is a interesting one. Honestly I wouldn't have any problem with her since I can understand why she kills. I believe its gotten to the point where she can't stop or if she did it would likely kill her. The problem is that she will kill Shepard and constantly attempts to do it. She isn't necessarily evil but more chaotic neutral. Will kill anything that she can gain power from.

Morinth doesn't kill for the greater good like Thane used to and Samara constantly does. She just kills for both necessity and enjoyment. Thane is a killer but as an Assassin he has likely never killed innocents in the cross fire. The Hanar usually send him to take out enemies of the Hanar people. No real difference between him and Spectres who are more renegade oriented. Kasumi is just plain Neutral and just likes stealing for her self and would likely rather not hurt anyone in the process.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Saphra Deden wrote...

When TIM ordered Miranda to stop Shepard at the end of the game she should have pulled a gun on you if her loyalty mission hadn't been completed. Perhaps with the other squadmate knocking her off the platform or something.

That would amount to inexcusable stupidity, enough to butcher her character. With the possible exception of Jacob, who might opt to try and reason with her, she would be killed immediately. It would be a futile action, especially if you brought along Grunt. She would come across as petty and contradictory, turning on you solely because you put the mission ahead of her daddy issues.

Quething wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Would I go to Cerberus' lengths? Likely not, however when you press her on the experimentation preformed, her argument has merit. If they could breed Rachni as obedient soldiers, many lives could be spared. Granted, this was prior to their discovery they were a competent species.

... they were spacefaring. They had starships. It is fairly common knowledge that they are a sentient species.

I like Miranda, personally, but it was a little hard to get there due to the bizarre personality swap she and Jacob undergo once you hit the Normandy. If she'd taken longer to open up and respect Shepard and been more consistent in challenging her, she'd have come across as a stronger character to me. As it is, I have to fill in a lot of gaps in her writing with fanon.

It was originally unknown Rachni were spacefaring when Cerberus initiated experimentation, which was revealed in one of the ME assignment missions. Likewise, their research would have predated ME's story, therefore there was limited information to go on, hence Noveria.

I do agree, the personality swap between Miranda and Jacob was odd, although in the case of the latter it comes more to interpretation and poor writing. You have to jump through hoops to have Femshep keep her pants on while talking to Jacob.