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[1136342t54_]

Quething wrote...

... they were spacefaring. They had starships. It is fairly common knowledge that they are a sentient species.

Its commonly known that plain warrior or worker rachni are controlled by the Queens. Without the Queens they were likely going to try and find a way to control them. The problem was that the rachni on their own were fairly intelligent which wasn't known.

I like Miranda, personally, but it was a little hard to get there due to the bizarre personality swap she and Jacob undergo once you hit the Normandy. If she'd taken longer to open up and respect Shepard and been more consistent in challenging her, she'd have come across as a stronger character to me. As it is, I have to fill in a lot of gaps in her writing with fanon.

She never truly opened up to Shepard much. Miranda was basically trying to be cooperative with her Commanding officer which was necessary if she wanted to work on this mission. By being cold and ignoring Shepard it wouldn't have worked out well.

[Quething]

1136342t54 wrote...

Quething wrote...

... they were spacefaring. They had starships. It is fairly common knowledge that they are a sentient species.

Its commonly known that plain warrior or worker rachni are controlled by the Queens. Without the Queens they were likely going to try and find a way to control them. The problem was that the rachni on their own were fairly intelligent which wasn't known.

You're going to need to offer some evidence for that claim. I don't see much of anything in the lore, and particularly on Noveria, to demonstrate that anyone knew or believed they knew anything at all about the rachni. Certainly the cost-benefit analysis of the original Noveria project (before they knew they had a queen) is basically prohibitive if the belief is that a queen is required for control.

Miranda opens up to you about her insecurites and has Shepard leaning over in the couch doing Therapist!Face in her very second conversation. Even the pleasant "I suppose that's fair" Miranda of the first conversation is a far, far cry from "I have the utmost respect for your abilities. It's your motives I don't trust, and I will happily tell you to your face that you should have had a control chip."

[Sepewrath]

Seboist wrote...

Another oddity about Miranda's character is that the shadow broker dossier describes her as "obsessed with human dominance" but she didn't come off like that at all. She comes off as more moderate than the SR-1 crew regarding aliens.

That's because your confusing an obsession with human dominance with xenophobia, there is a difference. You don't have to hate the other species to think that you should reign over them, in fact hate with would be a detriment, because it favors separation and isolation over dominance.

[1136342t54_]

Quething wrote...
You're going to need to offer some evidence for that claim. I don't see much of anything in the lore, and particularly on Noveria, to demonstrate that anyone knew or believed they knew anything at all about the rachni. Certainly the cost-benefit analysis of the original Noveria project (before they knew they had a queen) is basically prohibitive if the belief is that a queen is required for control.

What evidence? The Codex information about the Rachni and the hundreds of years of info that the Council and some very rich people could get off of the Rachni or the info that Peak 15 had gathered from a Rachni Queen and its childrens on Rachni? Its pretty easy to infer that they should have enough info on the Rachni to know that it takes a Queen to control them.

Miranda opens up to you about her insecurites and has Shepard leaning over in the couch doing Therapist!Face in her very second conversation. Even the pleasant "I suppose that's fair" Miranda of the first conversation is a far, far cry from "I have the utmost respect for your abilities. It's your motives I don't trust, and I will happily tell you to your face that you should have had a control chip."

Isn't the the leaning on the couch part actually during the second part of the game after the loyalty mission when she talks about how she underestimated Shepard? Thats the only time they were both really on the couch talking.

I think she was still worried that Shepard wasn't going to work with them after the misssion since TIM did say that he could still go with the Alliance. Now when they are on the ship and Shepard is able to put aside his beliefs about Cerberus to work with the mission Miranda is willing to put aside some of her worries to cooperate with Shepard enough to make the mission work.

[ubermensch007]

Learning To Care About Miranda

Hmm... That seems to be an insuation of sorts in the title of this thread implying that Operative Lawson grows on you in time.Well there may be some truth to that for some

For my part, I must admit that i am much more fond of Ms.Lawson than I was a year ago. One of the things about her that I think can work against her i think is on account of how little control she has over what comes out of her mouth.That girl says things at times, talks to people in ways that i have never heard of being done before

And I don't know if its because she is so confident in her abilty to back up her words with action or she is just really impulsive.

- She tells Shepard to his face that she believes that the Illusive Man should have put a control chip in his head.

- She calls the young quarian male Veetor a "babbling idiot" when he's right in the room.But she is not talking to him.She's talking about him to Shepard and Jacob.

- She suggest to Shepard that they should knock Subject Zero - Jack out-cold and take her aboard the Normandy SR 2 by force.And then to top it off.When we are back on the Normandy, Miranda suggest to Commander Shepard that they should lock Jack up.And Jack is like right in the room when she's saying all this.And I'm watching this and I'm thinking to myself: "Miri... What that hell is wrong with you!?" 

You can't talk to people like that.For all the money, power and privlege that she grew up with.For all the top notch training and education that she received.It would appear that her father neglected to send her to "Finishing School" 

The lady has some very questionable social skills, to say the least... I mean they were sent to that prison ship to recruit Jack, not try to abduct her.

I for one absolutely Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooove it when Shepard get's a chance to tell Miranda off when she and Jack are having a row, after both thier Loyalty Missions are complete.I love what Shep says to Miranda about how "Jack is doing okay and Miranda needs to take a look at her own damn attitude." 

Ms.Lawson is the kind of person who will tell you what she thinks to your face.Now i can respect that.But what's weird is how she has a way of saying things about people like they're not even in the room.Which is just - rude. And i don't like it.

But we all have our faults, and Miri is a good friend to my Shep, so I guess I can accept her shortcomings 

[Celtic Latino]

Golden Owl wrote...

Well, as some of you would be aware, I have made my utter dislike of Miranda fairly clear in a number of threads....most often generally try to remain diplomatic, so may have not been that clear....Anyways, to the point:

My severe dislike of Miranda has been really bugging me, as it doesn't make a lot of sense to get so wound up about a pixelated personality...doesn't in real life either in fact...so I have been wondering just what is it that winds me up so much about her and why. I mentioned it to a friend yesterday...she's studying a councilling course of sorts...and we decided to examine it...Yes, hating on a fictional character that much really bugs me enough to do this.

Well, my friend I examined a number of possibilities and wound up with how much Miranda reminds me of the students I faced in the private all girls high school I had the unfortunate experience of attending...I am 40 now, so this goes back some what....So we had a look at that and FINALLY an answer....Despite my personal feelings about Miranda, I never renegaded Sheps responses to her (aside from turning down her advance of course and didn't want to be nasty about that either)...I really do love those conversations Shep has with her in regards to how she defines herself....Shep telling her its what she does with those gifts that define her, etc....its good for Miranda to hear that, I find it rather sad the way she views herself..... But whats missing, for me anyway is Sheps opportunity to encourage her in a paragon way to re-examine how she responds to and treats others also...I do see Miranda as ruthless and heartless...but the dialog wheel denies this possiblity...(sister does not count, I'm speaking social, not personal empathy)....My personal issue is, I never got the chance with the girls I schooled with and haven't been given the chance here again.....Now since realizing why Miranda eats at me so badly, the beauty is though I will never be a Miranda fan, but I'm not feeling that hate anymore either, the best I can hope for is neutral towards her, but in writing this, I'm actually starting to care about her.

I have really got to take my hat off to BW....their character representations in ME are fantastic...to have so many gamers react so strongly...love, hate, like, dislike, etc...to the NPC's displays an incredible talent on the writers team....Well done BW, very impressive.

I like how you shared your testimonial and that it reached you that way. Miranda indeed reminds me of people I've been around, one including a close friend of mine and some of his friends (yes they aren't women (unless gay men count lol)...but they are each good looking and successful...and even a little stuck up, but they are human). 

I'd like to add that someone can be both empathetic and have a heart yet ruthless. Some people deeply care about family and their closest friends but have the gates shut towards anyone outside their standards or what they know. I experienced that in school all my life myself. People show their true colors around their fellow social circles and sometimes are even alright one on one but still may look down and disdain others. Her view towards alien races are akin to how some real world people feel about those of differing cultures, sexualities and social classes. Someone whose a rich, liberal democrat may love her rich gay friends and have a few friends of different races among her social class but frown upon people who are poor or certain ethnic and social groups because of their norms. Someone whose a conservative Christian may be the greatest thing around members of his church and those who hold his views but have a cold reception towards those who are not in agreement with his views or religion. 

People aren't necessarily 'nice', 'mean', 'evil', 'good'...everyone's a little bit of everything to someone. For example, you may have an African-American who may be deeply religious and believe in social justice may have a grace about her around other people of African or minority descent but deeply resent Caucasians and be homophobic. To someone in her family or social group she may be known as a sweet, kind, passionate person but maybe someone who is white or gay that encounters her may see her as a bigot or rude person. Another example would be someone whose very well rounded and friendly to people of all different walks of life and count many among his friends and be known as a 'cool guy' or 'tolerant', yet he may have an abusive or cold connection with his own family. They might see him as a terrible or uncaring person. It's what the person experiences. 

Just like Miranda. Miranda deeply cares for her sister and fully believes in what The Illusive Man stands for either because of her viewpoint on other races, on humanity, or maybe because he's like a father figure who protects her. Or maybe a little bit of all three. She's probably cold to those who don't support Cerberus and has her walls up around everyone, including Shepard, but some may make a friend out of her...a lover...while others see her as a stuck-up impossible woman (reading her dating files on her dossier). She knows she 's beautiful and can do almost anything yet also has insecurity because she's a test tube creation and doesn't have the opportunity to become a biological mother the natural way. 

She's complex like that. As are people. Very good post 

[PMC65]

@Celtic Latino - Really enjoyed reading your post.

[Celtic Latino]

PMC65 wrote...

@Celtic Latino - Really enjoyed reading your post.

Thank you so much! 

It was reading the OP's testimonial of her experience in school that got me thinking. No one is defined by one term. I'm glad you enjoyed my post though. 

[Weltea]

Personally I adore Miranda (and could write page after page as to why lol) but I have other characters I didn't like immediately and I did the same think you did basically, outline their motivations,their whole character really, and think about what exactly it is that I had a problem with...

That aside,can I just say that I loved reading through that post? Not only because it's always interesting to me how others view the characters but also because you seem to be one of the few people on the BSN who don't go "I hate character A. No of course I never talked to that character,I hate them so why would I". And there wasn't even a single hint of bashing people that like Miranda in that post which is also not always the case. So basically I feel like I should thank you for not acting immature

[Labrev]

 Miranda is someone I despised for a little while at first, and have eventually come to appreciate a lot.

She's not the nicest person and can have several b!tch moments (control chip, insulting various crew/squad) but those qualities make her a more human character, as you said.

At the same token, there are definitely things to like about her: she's smart, confident, a hard worker, and great leader. Those qualities alone win a ton of respect from me, even if she may not be my friend (but I do consider her one).


I think that Miranda is also a good-hearted person deep down, but when she isn't able to empathize with people she'll treat them much like her father probably treated her. It's a very real thing, becoming the very thing you hate/vow you'll never become. But then you see the way she is with her sister, and that she had feelings for Niket, and I think that's really what she is.

Also, I definitely think naiivety is a big part of her character as well. Not only her romanticized overall view about Cerberus, but just the idea that she knows who she can trust from 10-second encounters (and look what happened to her with Niket). It's obvious to me she totally buys the BS stories she's fed about Cerberus's unsavory practices and that TIM has probably generally kept her in the dark to maintain her loyalty and not let her conscience get to her. Which, to me, made it unsurpsing that she didn't want to keep the base.

[ubermensch007]

The Virmire Survivor really rubed me the wrong way on Horizon.With next to almost everything they said and thier hollier than thou condescending attitude.But on this one point as it pertains to
Cerberus, we may be in agreement:

Ashley: Bullsh!t. Cerberus goes on about how much they care about
humanity.But at what cost?!

When I think of how cold and emotionally detached Jacob and Miranda were when they along with  Shepard left the Lazarus station.With what they say, when Shep ask about "Other Surviivors" It was kind of shocking.They worked with those people for over two years and here is Shep who didn't even know those people, showing more concern and
compassion towards them.Than the man who was Head of Security of the Lazarus Project.And the woman that was its Director...

If I have any problem with Ms.Lawson above all others, it is how she lies to herself.When you talk to her on the Normandy SR 2 (for the first time in her office.) She speaks of Cerberus, herself and the Illusive Man.She goes on about how TIM cares for humanity, and her and Shep; almost like a "loving father".She says that she believes in what
Cerberus stands for: The advancement and preservation of humanity throughout the Milky Way Galaxy and beyond.

But you see, there's what Miranda says and then there is what Miranda does.She and Jacob convince Shepard to leave the Lazarus station with them.By saying that if he were to die there; than all thier coworkers
deaths would have been in vain.And bringing Shepard back to aid humanity in thier time of need is of the utmost importance.I'm paraphrasing of course

Am I the only one who was really shocked during Miranda's Loyatly Mission.When she essentially endangers the success of the Suicide Mission by putting Commander Shepard's life in danger, in order to save her sister.She says we'll be in a skycar and draw enemy fire away from Oriana.Uh... excuse me? What the french toast, did you just say?!

Now, Commander Shepard in 2185 is as important or is at least is believed to be as important to defeating the Reapers as John Conner is to the Resistence defeat of Cyberdyne.

In Mass Effect 2.There are really only four or five Loyalty Missions that have any real signfigant effect on the greater Mass Effect Galaxy as a whole.That would be: Kasumi, Mordin, Tali and Legion's Loyalty Missions.

As for the others, they have more to do with humanitarian aid, or a vendetta or family issue.Shepard is once noted for saying to the Illusive Man, "You say my life is important.But you seem to go out of your way to get me killed." Miranda says that she believes in what Cerberus stands for, but she doesn't have much success at praticing what she preaches.

She will move heaven and earth to help her "sister".She will do a favor for her "friend" Jacob.But she will abandon the humans under her supervision.Without a moments hesistation.But get in Joker's face and chide him when the Normandy SR 2 human crew is abducted by the Collectors.Yet a few moments later she advises Shepard to not really
give them much thought or concern and to focus on the "mission" at the expense of the lives of the crew.

At this point in the story however, Jacob Taylor has changed from his
previous stance.He now values the lives of "the help" and wants to
rescue them.

Speaking of which: after Jacob's revelation on Aeia.When speaking to TIM, Jack Harper says to Shepard,"You know very little about me.Or my motives.My people are valuable to me."

Miranda does not even soften a bit, when we are reunited with the crew during the Suicide Mission.In there face, she urges Shepard to not send anyone back with them.To ensure thier safe return getting aboard the Normandy SR 2.

I've said this in another thread and I shall say it here: I bet if Oriana had been aboard the Normandy for a visit, when the crew was abducted.Miranda would have taken a shuttle through the Omega 4 Relay, to save her if she had to.

They say that "like recognizes like." And I believe I know why Miranda is so close to the Illusive Man in the prologue of Mass Effect 2.Because in many ways, they are two peas in a pod.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

Learning to care for Miranda would be like learning to care for hemorrhoids!

[77bug]

I never really hated a squad member.

[JosephDucreux]

Quole wrote...

I hate people that hate hating her.

[Quole]

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Learning to care for Miranda would be like learning to care for hemorrhoids!

For once I agree with you, Drucilla.

[Quole]

Wow, that was months ago. You must be really upset about what I said about MJ. Speaking of which, why was this thread necrod, exactly?

Modifié par Quole, 23 novembre 2011 - 04:02 .

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

Quole wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Learning to care for Miranda would be like learning to care for hemorrhoids!

For once I agree with you, Drucilla.

Wow, are you serious? Everyone, break out the champagne  

[Quole]

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Quole wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Learning to care for Miranda would be like learning to care for hemorrhoids!

For once I agree with you, Drucilla.

Wow, are you serious? Everyone, break out the champagne  

your intelligence is still far below mine, however.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

Quole wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Quole wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Learning to care for Miranda would be like learning to care for hemorrhoids!

For once I agree with you, Drucilla.

Wow, are you serious? Everyone, break out the champagne  

your intelligence is still far below mine, however.

Yes, your brainiacness, you floor me by your superior intellect and rapist wit.  

[Quole]

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Quole wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Quole wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Learning to care for Miranda would be like learning to care for hemorrhoids!

For once I agree with you, Drucilla.

Wow, are you serious? Everyone, break out the champagne  

your intelligence is still far below mine, however.

Yes, your brainiacness, you floor me by your superior intellect and rapist wit.  

Do not be too upset. You fall into the same category as almost everyone on the BSN...... The retarded one.

Modifié par Quole, 23 novembre 2011 - 06:12 .

[PauseforEffect]

I'm impressed, Golden Owl. Not too many people I know take that much effort to examine the causes behind our emotions. I learned long ago that with understanding comes peace (or at least the feeling that you understand) while ignorance encourages anger and hostility.
I'll admit, I'm not fond of Miranda's design (that perpetual Barbie doll smile follows every conversation) but I do like her personality (even though I'll still side with Jack every time). In a way, she's easy to relate to in that I see her calculating pragmatism arising from being raised in an environment where you are judged by the value you demonstrate, not from your existence. When you grow up without love, your aspirations turn to becoming so valuable as a tool that you are as unlikely to be disposed of as your insecure mindset can handle. Her softness for Oriana sort of reflects her unexpressed wish for love and protection that was denied her.

[Burneye Is God]

Golden Owl wrote...

Well, as some of you would be aware, I have made my utter dislike of Miranda fairly clear in a number of threads....most often generally try to remain diplomatic, so may have not been that clear....Anyways, to the point:

My severe dislike of Miranda has been really bugging me, as it doesn't make a lot of sense to get so wound up about a pixelated personality...doesn't in real life either in fact...so I have been wondering just what is it that winds me up so much about her and why. I mentioned it to a friend yesterday...she's studying a councilling course of sorts...and we decided to examine it...Yes, hating on a fictional character that much really bugs me enough to do this.

Well, my friend I examined a number of possibilities and wound up with how much Miranda reminds me of the students I faced in the private all girls high school I had the unfortunate experience of attending...I am 40 now, so this goes back some what....So we had a look at that and FINALLY an answer....Despite my personal feelings about Miranda, I never renegaded Sheps responses to her (aside from turning down her advance of course and didn't want to be nasty about that either)...I really do love those conversations Shep has with her in regards to how she defines herself....Shep telling her its what she does with those gifts that define her, etc....its good for Miranda to hear that, I find it rather sad the way she views herself..... But whats missing, for me anyway is Sheps opportunity to encourage her in a paragon way to re-examine how she responds to and treats others also...I do see Miranda as ruthless and heartless...but the dialog wheel denies this possiblity...(sister does not count, I'm speaking social, not personal empathy)....My personal issue is, I never got the chance with the girls I schooled with and haven't been given the chance here again.....Now since realizing why Miranda eats at me so badly, the beauty is though I will never be a Miranda fan, but I'm not feeling that hate anymore either, the best I can hope for is neutral towards her, but in writing this, I'm actually starting to care about her.

I have really got to take my hat off to BW....their character representations in ME are fantastic...to have so many gamers react so strongly...love, hate, like, dislike, etc...to the NPC's displays an incredible talent on the writers team....Well done BW, very impressive.

strong believes, loyal, beautiful, family comes first for miri and an ever evolving character loved her to bits