23 réponses à ce sujet

[Paper420]

Seem likes a math test and have no idea how to go about learning how to understand half of the stuff.

(I know the basics of making them, just not the complicated ones people post up)

Anybody got any tips or a link to a helpful source ?

[mr_afk]

what do you mean by build?

if you mean attributes it's relatively simple:
- Base damage and attack score are both increased by the base attribute (str, mag, dex). Each point into your base attribute gives 0.5 base damage.
- Each point into dex increases critical chance by 1%.
- Each point into cun increases critical damage by 1% unless you have devious harm which increases it to 2%.

- Points into willpower give 5 stamina/mana or 0.75 base damage for (upgraded) berserkers
- Points into constitution give 5 hp
- Strength and magic also give fortitude and magic resistance respectively, but they really don't factor that much into build considerations.


As maxing damage output is the best and ultimate aim to utterly face-rolling anything and everything, the general idea is to increase your base damage, crit chance, crit damage (and maintain a high attack-rating) through your attributes and gear. Tank/support builds are viable but will usually just result in longer fights.

General Rule for Maxing Damage

Warriors
 - non-berserkers: Everything into strength.
 - berserkers: Mixture of willpower and strength (as strength is needed as a prerequisite and for a decent attack-rating)

Rogues
 - non-assassins: Mostly into dex with a little bit of cunning later on in the game
 - assassins: Mostly into cunning with enough dex for prerequisites and to reach at least 100% crit chance (80% if you want
   to rely on unforgiving chain)

Mages
 - non-bloodmages: Everything into magic (and maybe a few points into will, though I personally don't bother)
 - bloodmages: Everything into magic (and maybe a few points into con, if you don't want to die)


For warriors and mages it is best to increase base damage until the cap (100) is reached. After that, increasing crit chance by pumping dex is better.
Since rogues have such a high base damage and crit chance it becomes better to increase critical damage% rather than base damage. This means that pumping dex to 100 isn't desired and an optimised mix of dex and cun is preferable.

Con and Will is a little more to disgression. In general it lowers damage output but if you can constantly spam your abilities and not be dying all the time it might make up for it.


Gear-wise, elemental +%damage gear (if you have the relevant weapon) and crit gear are generally the best.
When it comes to weapons there are several factors. Whether it has a high base damage, is elemental (of the right element given your enemy weaknesses), and whether it has rune slots/modifiers that are useful.


Abilities are the most important and variable aspect to character builds. It is for abilities that you might check out the builds out there- finding out which combinations work well with which strategies. This is what makes guides like Arelex's so useful; The abilities chosen are complemented by the abilities from the rest of the party.

Once you get a little more experienced you'll be able to recognise which are the best abilities with the best synergy with your current setup, e.g. in setting up and letting off CCCs.

Getting good tactics is the key in this regard.



But I think i'll stop now before I drift more off topic. If you have any more specific questions go for it.

Modifié par mr_afk, 12 août 2011 - 08:08 .

[ripstrawberry]

"- Base damage and attack score are both increased by the base attribute (str, mag, dex). Each point into your base attribute gives 0.5 base damage."

I'd want to stress that dex, str and mag increase talent/spell dmg in a different way because they have multipliers.

"- Each point into cun increases critical damage by 1% unless you have devious harm which increases it to 2%."

Also increases def and determines the success of rogues lockpicking and disarming.

"- Points into willpower give 5 stamina/mana or 0.75 base damage for (upgraded) berserkers"

Also increases mana/stamina regen because mana/stamina regen is based on max mana/stamina.

- Points into constitution give 5 hp

See will but change to hp regen.

" - berserkers: Mixture of willpower and strength (as strength is needed as a prerequisite and for a decent attack-rating)"

I agree with everything so far except this. A berserker doesn't need to pump will. Those points are better spent on str then on dex/cun later on. Stamina decreases at a really fast rate if you're hasted and barraged. Much more if you're double/triple hasted and have +attack speed gear. You will empty your stamina too easily to rely on it's dmg bonus after the initial hits. Investing in x% elemental dmg gear, +crit% and +crit dmg gear are better investments as well instead of +stamina/mana gear as they give consistent bonus that will remain once your stamina is out.

" - assassins: Mostly into cunning with enough dex for prerequisites and to reach at least 100% crit chance (80% if you want
to rely on unforgiving chain)"

I disagree w/ this as well slightly. I think all rogues should strive to max dex until they get 100% crit rate then focus on cun. Achieving 100% atk is also recommended at least on grunts.

" - non-bloodmages: Everything into magic (and maybe a few points into will, though I personally don't bother)"

I don't bother either. Besides, lyrium potions abound and there's alot of big +stamina/mana on gear.

[Elhanan]

And then there is me....

Warrior:
STR - max
DEX - 30 to improve Crit chance
Mgc - untouched, unless wanting to play anti-Mage
Cunning - 20 for Crit dmg
Will - 20, and choosing Second Wind
Con - 30

Mage:
STR - untouched; choose Force Mage spec to boost Fortitude
DEX - 20 to improve Crit chance
Mgc - max
Cunning - 20 for Crit dmg
Will - 30+ for Mana and maybe items
CON- 20 for hp

Rogue:
STR: 20
DEX: 40+
Mgc: untouched
Cunning: 40+
Will - 30 for Stamina
CON - 20 for hp

Modifié par Elhanan, 12 août 2011 - 03:37 .

[mr_afk]

A berserker doesn't need to pump will. Those points are better spent on str then on dex/cun later on.

It's probably because you play solo? Have you actually tested this with a party?
While it is true that a berserker on haste uses up stamina rather fast it also kills things rather fast. With all the stamina coming in from death blow the huge difference in potential base damage makes pumping willpower superior dps-wise.

You also do realise that there's next to no point speccing into berserker if you don't use berserk? You need the berserk sustain on in order to use all the berserker abilities besides the passive. So if you're going to pump no will and just run it down to nothing from the start you'll have to chug stamina potions every time you want to re-buff yourself (e.g. barrage/cleave).
So i would say that standard reaver/templar builds don't apply to berserkers. That's not to say you should waste item slots on +stamina gear- there's nothing preventing them from using crit-gear as well.

e.g. pretend that instead of going 100 strength you have 100 willpower.
on one hand you get 50 base damage (not including weapons) and on the other hand ~91+. Your stamina pool would be ~610 which gives you 280 stamina of superior dps (until it reaches ~333).
This means that you'll be able to pop off as many abilities as you want doing close to double the damage of a full strength build. We're talking a difference of several thousand for abilities like scatter/assault/mighty blow.

The only issue is attack-rating. I've played around with the idea of a pure willpower berserker who basically relies on abilities for damage (i.e. each ability deals crazy damage which regens stamina allowing more abilities). But it doesn't work given how reliant DA2 combat is on autoattacks and on how sustains become ridiculously costly to your damage-potential.

But a more normal mix of strength and willpower is the optimal build for a berserker. full strength/dex is the route for non-berserkers.

I think all rogues should strive to max dex until they get 100% crit rate then focus on cun.

Once again, I think you're thinking this way only because of solo play. If you think about how fast a hasted DW rogue hits (especially with the primeval rune) those 10 hits are going to happen in a second or two. the difference between +10 base damage and 100% crit chance compared to +40% critical damage is quite considerable.

If you min-max you're going to want to scrape every bit of damage you can. This of course only works for DW assassins; without devious harm and the unforgiving chain pumping more dex to reach 100% crit chance will be ideal. (it's a little too much effort to have to always build up your chain before switching to archery at the start of each fight for that extra 20% crit chance)

[SuicidalBaby]

guys....

I think the OP's head just ....

[AreleX]

signature

[AreleX]

also check out sb's advanced tactics guide, that will also give you a better idea of what you want to build your characters well FOR.

[playaplayer]

Mr. Afk. I followed Arelex guide on my 2h warrior build. I pump str to 41, con to 18, and put the rest into will. I was level 25 when it was all over. My question is did I optimize my warrior the best it could of been.  (Not counting stat boosting gear.)

Modifié par playaplayer, 13 août 2011 - 02:18 .

[SuicidalBaby]

this should be cute....

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 13 août 2011 - 02:13 .

[mr_afk]

Haha i'm not going to argue with Arelex's build.
I haven't played much of a post-patch berserker and still don't know the calculations for attack so I can't really say much. atm berserkers can't really be determined by maths.

What's your attack-score? Basically, as long as you're not having too many/any glancing blows (e.g. really small numbers) a strength of 41 should be fine. Theoretically speaking you won't need an extremely high attack score vs elites because they will be the main enemy you use abilities on but 100% attack vs normal would be nice.

Basically, just the optimal attribute allocation is just pumping enough strength that you don't glance and putting the rest into willpower- and if Arelex said 41 then I would assume 41 would be approximately that ideal amount. Pumping any constitution is reducing damage output and not that necessary but if it works for you then it doesn't really matter.


and how is this cute? <_< haha

Modifié par mr_afk, 13 août 2011 - 03:45 .

[ripstrawberry]

"It's probably because you play solo? Have you actually tested this with a party?"

Yup both party and solo. Both on nightmare. Both on a level 50 playthrough and normal play.

"While it is true that a berserker on haste uses up stamina rather fast it also kills things rather fast. With all the stamina coming in from death blow the huge difference in potential base damage makes pumping willpower superior dps-wise."

The logic here is sound but let's apply it to a real situation where there aren't any grunts alive. Let's say it's just a boss and your party. You won't have easy grunts to kill to refill your stamina quickly. You'll be reliant on stamina draughts and second wind. +crit% is constant dmg regardless of the situation. Much more fantastic if an enemy is brittle too. Oh and triggers destroyer which is the gravy versus elites/bosses. I'm guessing it's a difference of playstyles then? My warrior plays like a rogue. I typically let my party handle the grunts while I focus on killing the elite/boss. My mages deal alot of dmg as well (I like glass cannons) so sometimes they kill the grunts before I do. This is why I feel +crit% is better. You're getting consistent dmg increase w/ destroyer bonus to boot. If sunder gets fixed, then you get staggers to boot if you're 2H. I think we also have a difference in party composition? I play exclusively on nightmare so I generally avoid aveline/fenris if I can so I don't have a rally source. You're position makes much more sense to me with a rally source.

"You also do realise that there's next to no point speccing into berserker if you don't use berserk? "

Yes I do. I do use berserk. For barrage. The initial dmg boost from berserk is just gravy really to me because it goes away after a few seconds (running anders, bethany and varric in party play).

"You need the berserk sustain on in order to use all the berserker abilities besides the passive. So if you're going to pump no will and just run it down to nothing from the start you'll have to chug stamina potions every time you want to re-buff yourself (e.g. barrage/cleave)."

Yup that's what I do. I save my stamina draughts/second wind for rebuffing purposes. I typically open the battles w/ buffs, excess stamina for spike dmg, finish my stamina via auto-attacks, stamina draught/second wind, rebuff, lather, rinse, repeat. I don't rely on the dmg bonus basically.

"The only issue is attack-rating. I've played around with the idea of a pure willpower berserker who basically relies on abilities for damage (i.e. each ability deals crazy damage which regens stamina allowing more abilities). But it doesn't work given how reliant DA2 combat is on autoattacks and on how sustains become ridiculously costly to your damage-potential."

Another reason why i don't waste points on will. It makes my sustains costly and detrimental to the build and I so like being able to use control/might or pop a turn the blade/elemental aegis when it's needed and not feel bad about how seriously it's gimping my dps unlike w/ a crit build.

"Once again, I think you're thinking this way only because of solo play. If you think about how fast a hasted DW rogue hits (especially with the primeval rune) those 10 hits are going to happen in a second or two. the difference between +10 base damage and 100% crit chance compared to +40% critical damage is quite considerable."

While true, I usually play archers when I play rogues so I can't afford glancing as much as DW rogues can. 2nd, I like activating disorienting criticals consistently. However, this is merely a preference and your reasoning is more sound on this one so I will concede that what you said is the better route.

If you min-max you're going to want to scrape every bit of damage you can. This of course only works for DW assassins; without devious harm and the unforgiving chain pumping more dex to reach 100% crit chance will be ideal. (it's a little too much effort to have to always build up your chain before switching to archery at the start of each fight for that extra 20% crit chance)

[mr_afk]

yeah I just can't be bothered having to rely on stamina draughts. and I don't really play berserkers anyway so you probably should ask Arelex about the optimal berserker build. I usually use the ability points I save from only having one spec (reaver) to get bravery and vanguard fully kitted out. Then I usually dabble in templar just because I can.

my only vid of a berserker build was a quick one I hashed up without min-maxing (mostly to test how much easier the high dragon was post-patch). that was definitely not optimal as all the sustains I was running left me with less than ~66% stamina (probably around 50%). This meant that I had less base damage than a full strength build. Not very clever although it did mean that I didn't have to chug any stamina potions.

But I think you're once again drawing back on your level 50 experiences. The differences between a full strength and mixed willpower build isn't going to be much to do with critical chance. It takes a while to hit 100 strength (~level 20) so for the majority of the end game there'll only be ~10% crit chance difference. Though at level 27 the 20% crit chance would be nice.
The main difference between builds will be base damage. And for the most part, a high willpower build gives a much higher base damage.

The main downside as you pointed out is that sustains take up horrible amounts of stamina. Only might would be worth maintaining. This means that a full strength build could potentially benefit damage-wise from having bravery activated.


But I think we've discussed berserkers/warriors enough. I've mostly boycotted warriors ever since the patch killed my reaver. So most of my information comes from theory rather than personal experience, such that your own judgement will probably be better. All I'm saying is that theoretically you can get a lot more damage with a willpower berserker.

What you should do if you can be bothered is record your normal levelled berserker in a party setup doing the same fights as in this video:

If it's noticeably superior, we can tell Arelex that his build is terrible and that he fails at life hahaha

[Paper420]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

guys....

I think the OP's head just ....

I lol'd

Thanks so far everybody thats posted, I'm slowly understanding the concept I guess the more I play and mess around with characters the better my knowledge will be.

[Paper420]

Also whats DPS stand for ? :L

[andraip]

DPS = damage per second

basicly it means the average damage your character will theorecticly do in a second

[Sabotin]

Note that the DPS stat shown on the character screen only includes the basic weapon damage, damage bonus from the main statistics (str for warriors, dex for rogues, mag for mages) and the type of the weapon (1h weapons hit faster than 2h weapons for example). It does NOT include any +% damage (heroic aura, gear,...), attack speed bonuses (haste, primeval rune,...) or critical hit calculations.

[SuicidalBaby]

you forgot # of targets as a group of enemies that has been lumped up can multiply the total damage for both 1 and 2 h warriors.  As positioning is king.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 16 août 2011 - 07:13 .

[Paper420]

Also people saying they don't put points on will power,

You need will power to wield stronger staffs n armor correct..?

[SuicidalBaby]

It really depends on the build,

If you're going blood, you prebuff to equip items and do not put any points into willpower
if you're going to avoid blood magic spec, you will need Death Vortex at minimum. Pumping willpower slightly, no more than +10 from points, with high +mana gear will get you through. You wont need Death Vortex if you play on any difficulty under nightmare, just suck potions.

[Paper420]

Is there any sort of item list, like a list going through where you find it etc

Modifié par Paper420, 17 août 2011 - 04:13 .

[SuicidalBaby]

for which?

click compendium below for blood | Click on IN1's Elemental Jiu Jitsu for the rest

Afk's crit mage spec has the other gear you should be looking at, as general crit and crit damage gear make raising dps easier than switching out gear when you run into an immunity while on nightmare.  (Not as necessary on other difficulties.)

Follow IN1's signature links around to see how specific elemental builds behave

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 17 août 2011 - 04:37 .

[Paper420]

Thanks for helping out, appreciate it

[ripstrawberry]

“yeah I just can't be bothered having to rely on stamina draughts. and I don't really play berserkers anyway so you probably should ask Arelex about the optimal berserker build. I usually use the ability points I save from only having one spec (reaver) to get bravery and vanguard fully kitted out. Then I usually dabble in templar just because I can.
“

Hehehe. No need. I pretty much have no problems building out optimal rogues/warriors because I have a self-made calc for that. It’s clunky but it works well enough for my needs. Mages are what I have problems with since a: I typically dislike playing mages in DA because they’re overpowered (moreso in DAO). b: There are so many variables to consider so doing the math makes my head hurt. Anyways, getting new ideas for rogues/warriors interests me though.

“But I think you're once again drawing back on your level 50 experiences. The differences between a full strength and mixed willpower build isn't going to be much to do with critical chance. It takes a while to hit 100 strength (~level 20) so for the majority of the end game there'll only be ~10% crit chance difference. Though at level 27 the 20% crit chance would be nice.
The main difference between builds will be base damage. And for the most part, a high willpower build gives a much higher base damage.”

While that is true with basic gear and with no other buffs, once you get better gear (+crit% gear), and points to spare into dex, the str->dex build becomes superior to the will->str build. And that’s not even taking glancing into account that comes w/ low str. The last statement confused me though. How does a willpower build give higher base dmg? Isn’t str and weapon dmg the only determinants of base dmg? I’ve always assumed that berserk dmg is added in at the end of the computations like on-hit dmg sources (runes and poisons)? I see where you’re coming from though wherein you place more value in performance mid-game and early game. I place more value in the late-game performance since that’s why I level-up anyways. To be great in the end.

“But I think we've discussed berserkers/warriors enough. I've mostly boycotted warriors ever since the patch killed my reaver. So most of my information comes from theory rather than personal experience, such that your own judgement will probably be better. All I'm saying is that theoretically you can get a lot more damage with a willpower berserker. “

I agree. I can’t be bothered to do the complicated math right now. The math for that hurts.

“If it's noticeably superior, we can tell Arelex that his build is terrible and that he fails at life hahaha “

Yeah if I’m up to it. Or at least show the math w/ complete gear, attributes and buffs.