144 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

andy69156915 wrote...

Wow... It's even worse then I realized. Game contradicts itself non-stop it seems. Apparently, the lore gets worse with each game. First it starts with ammo thermal clips, and only gets worse from there.

Every game with any substantial amount of lore ever is like this.  Gameplay is always an abstraction of lore with numerous exceptions made for the purpose of being fun to play (or to save valuable dev time and money on a limited schedule and budget).

Modifié par didymos1120, 12 août 2011 - 02:43 .

[LGTX]

andy69156915 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
If you're honestly implying that thermal clips were a retcon, we can might as well close this thread now, because they aren't.

Clips weren't used until after Shepard's death. So please explain how there are thermal clips all over the planet the Gernsback (Jacob's loyalty mission) crashed on, the crash happening 10 years before ME2. You know, without calling retcon.

As a developer who values resources while developing a game, you'd honestly implement a different ammo system for just one mission in a game, screwing up the gameplay-established balance and causing much more fan uproar than there is right now, just to keep the lore consistent? I'm sorry, but that seems so illogical to me it's almost funny.

[Veex]

andy69156915 wrote...

Clips weren't used until after Shepard's death. So please explain how there are thermal clips all over the planet the Gernsback (Jacob's loyalty mission) crashed on, the crash happening 10 years before ME2. You know, without calling retcon.

You're struggling separating gameplay from lore, obviously. There are thermal clips on the mission so that they don't have to design a completely new combat scenario for a single loyalty mission. Gameplay decision.

[Chino 281]

Are you bugged by a retcon that makes total sense with a full explanation?

[Someone With Mass]

andy69156915 wrote...

Clips weren't used until after Shepard's death. So please explain how there are thermal clips all over the planet the Gernsback (Jacob's loyalty mission) crashed on, the crash happening 10 years before ME2. You know, without calling retcon.

Gee, ever heard of gameplay convenience?

I really doubt they would design a completely different weapon system just for one mission.

http://masseffect.wi...ps#Small_Arms_2

[didymos1120]

Someone With Mass wrote...
If you're honestly implying that thermal clips were a retcon, we can might as well close this thread now, because they aren't.

Thermal clips are a weird example.  They're not a retcon for organic races, but they are for the geth: we supposedly got them from examining geth weapons post-ME1, but of course geth weapons didn't use them in ME1 and operated on the overheat system just like every other weapon.

[andy6915]

Honestly, the clip thing doesn't bug me as much as you all think. That was just an example. I can easily skirt around that. I just pretend that clips have always been used and they just never showed it in ME1. There, done. I can't easily do something like that with the shield to barrier thing though.

Seriously, it's when I can't just fan theory it away that it starts to get bad for me.

Modifié par andy69156915, 12 août 2011 - 02:47 .

[Phaedon]

didymos1120 wrote...
Thermal clips are a weird example.  They're not a retcon for organic races, but they are for the geth: we supposedly got them from examining geth weapons post-ME1, but of course geth weapons didn't use them in ME1 and operated on the overheat system just like every other weapon.

You can't pick them up in ME1, so they aren't there?

[Someone With Mass]

didymos1120 wrote...

Thermal clips are a weird example.  They're not a retcon for organic races, but they are for the geth: we supposedly got them from examining geth weapons post-ME1, but of course geth weapons didn't use them in ME1 and operated on the overheat system just like every other weapon.

They could've just analyzed the battle and came up with the conclusion that the weapons weren't as effective as they wanted them to be.

[Pulletlamer]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

habitat 67 wrote...
Would you quit using the word retcon where it doesn't fit?
Gah, it's so annoying.

+1

+2

The people I've seen on this forum that actually know what "retcon" means are so few, I could probably count them on one hand.

Btw I don't know what retcon means, someone care to explain me?

Because I see it being used and I don't really know what it means. Sorry in advance if it's something important (or that I should know) about ME.

EDIT: On topic, I suppose it's for gameplay purposes. We could consider biotics don't need shield generators on their suits or something.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 12 août 2011 - 02:45 .

[RocketManSR2]

Shields are generated by the armor, barriers by biotics. Having armor that can suddenly do barriers is stupid now that I think about it. Biotic classes should have both and I don't mean by using a "bonus" talent. Any military level biotic who can't create a barrier on his own is worthless.

[andy6915]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Shields are generated by the armor, barriers by biotics. Having armor that can suddenly do barriers is stupid now that I think about it. Biotic classes should have both and I don't mean by using a "bonus" talent. Any military level biotic who can't create a barrier on his own is worthless.

It seems you are the first to get where I'm coming from.

[didymos1120]

Phaedon wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
Thermal clips are a weird example.  They're not a retcon for organic races, but they are for the geth: we supposedly got them from examining geth weapons post-ME1, but of course geth weapons didn't use them in ME1 and operated on the overheat system just like every other weapon.

You can't pick them up in ME1, so they aren't there?

No, the geth weapons function just like every other weapon: they overheat if fired too much, then cool.
And besides, the fact that a retcon can be accomodated within what we knew (which isn't the case with clips wrt to geth weaponry in ME1) doesn't make it not a retcon.  It just makes it an unobtrusive retcon.  Also, you're suffering a bit from "RETCON MEANS IT'S BAD" syndrome.  Retcons are really just a form a revision.  They can be an improvment or not.  This one works fine as far as I'm concerned, as geth weapons were rare enough that it doesn't amount to much of a lore alteration, and it paid off in a large improvement to the game. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 12 août 2011 - 02:50 .

[LGTX]

Pulletlamer wrote...

Btw I don't know what retcon means, someone care to explain me?

Because I see it being used and I don't really know what it means. Sorry in advance if it's something important (or that I should know) about ME.

EDIT: On topic, I suppose it's for gameplay purposes. We could consider biotics don't need shield generators on their suits or something.

"Retcon" is short for retroactive continuity, it refers to established facts and events changing over the course of a story. You could google it I guess.

[andy6915]

Seriously, it's when I can't just fan theory it away that it starts to get bad for me. I can ignore the other weird inconsistencies, but not this.

immunity=fortification
clips=always been there, not shown
pull=lift with a different name
shockwave= a new power Shepard came up with between the end of ME1 and death
shield to barriers=... I got nothing.

See?

EDIT:Maybe that thing I mentioned earlier about Shepard customizing the suit to have biotic amps in place of shield emitters is actually a good fan theory. But, somehow, it doesn't sit well with me like the others on that list.

Modifié par andy69156915, 12 août 2011 - 02:49 .

[RocketManSR2]

Pulletlamer wrote...
Btw I don't know what retcon means, someone care to explain me?

Because I see it being used and I don't really know what it means. Sorry in advance if it's something important (or that I should know) about ME.

EDIT: On topic, I suppose it's for gameplay purposes. We could consider biotics don't need shield generators on their suits or something.

Retroactive continuity (often shortened to retcon[1]) is an oxymoron that refers to the alteration of previously established facts in a fictional work.[2] Retcons are done for many reasons, including the accommodation of
sequels or further derivative works in a series, wherein newer authors or creators want to revise the in-story history to allow a course of events that would not have been possible in the story's original continuity. Other reasons might be the reintroduction of popular characters, resolution of errors in chronology, the updating of a familiar series for modern audiences, or simplification of an excessively complex continuity structure.Retcons are common in pulp fiction, especially comic books published by long-established houses such as DC, Marvel and leading manga
publishers. The long history of popular titles and the plurality of writers who contribute stories can often create situations that demand clarification or revision of exposition. Retcons appear as well in soap operas, serial drama, movie sequels, professional wrestling, video games, radio series, and other kinds of serial fiction. Retcons have been criticized as "cheating" on the part of the author, seen as an effort to purge "unpopular" elements from the storyline and force literary fads upon the audience, thus hurting suspension of disbelief.

^ From wiki

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 12 août 2011 - 02:52 .

[Someone With Mass]

Pulletlamer wrote...
Btw I don't know what retcon means, someone care to explain me?

Because I see it being used and I don't really know what it means. Sorry in advance if it's something important (or that I should know) about ME.

EDIT: On topic, I suppose it's for gameplay purposes. We could consider biotics don't need shield generators on their suits or something.

It's basically when the background and history about characters, items, events, etc are rewritten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon

[Clonedzero]

it took me like 4 ME2 playthroughs to notice that my biotics, it said "barrier" instead of shields lol.

its a gameplay gimmick to make biotics alittle different, thats all.

in ME1 howcome when you used barrier it just strengthened your shields instead of having a separate barrier strength bar, huh? shouldnt that bother you too?

[RocketManSR2]

If I'm a biotic going into battle and I was told, "Oh, sorry, since you can do a barrier, you don't get shields." I would've told that idiot to go f*** himself.

[andy6915]

Clonedzero wrote...
in ME1 howcome when you used barrier it just strengthened your shields instead of having a separate barrier strength bar, huh? shouldnt that bother you too?

No. I actually already mentioned this in my very first post. I pointed out that a barrier on top of an already-there shield from your armor suit should just add to what's already there, taking a ton of strain off the shield and allowing you to soak up more damage. Unsurprisingly, the barrier powers do exactly that.

RocketManSR2 wrote...

If I'm a biotic going into battle and I was told, "Oh, sorry, since you can do a barrier, you don't get shields." I would've told that idiot to go f*** himself.

OKay, it's clear now that you definitely know where I'm coming from.

Modifié par andy69156915, 12 août 2011 - 02:58 .

[MELTOR13]

Thermal clips aren't a retcon, they are something called 'technological advancement'. You know, sometimes people invent things that provide an advantage over existing technology.

Immunity =/= Fortification, they function differently.

If you're tweaking out about shields v barriers, or thermal clips, then what about.....

Overkill (ME1), Carnage (ME1), Marksman (ME1), Assassinate (ME1), Immunity (ME1), Reave (ME2), Dominate (ME2), Incinerate (ME2), Cryo Blast (ME2), All Biotic powers (ME1 and ME2), Tactical Cloak (ME2), Adrenaline Rush (ME2), Ammo powers (ME2), etc. etc. etc. etc.

Modifié par MELTOR13, 12 août 2011 - 02:57 .

[Clonedzero]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

If I'm a biotic going into battle and I was told, "Oh, sorry, since you can do a barrier, you don't get shields." I would've told that idiot to go f*** himself.

aside from it saying "barrier" its exactly the same. it even LOOKS like a shield in the gameplay itself. with the way it pops and the way it recharges.

people take every super super super minor detail and whine like nuts about it.

[Whatever42]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

habitat 67 wrote...
Would you quit using the word retcon where it doesn't fit?
Gah, it's so annoying.

+1

+2

The people I've seen on this forum that actually know what "retcon" means are so few, I could probably count them on one hand.

++

People scraping through ever last dark corner of a story to find retcons is annoying enough. People slapping the label willy nilly on everything is just stupid.

[andy6915]

Again, the vast majority of inconsistencies don't bug me, because I can fan theory them away well enough to not be bothered. I mean, I kind of already do that with the shield issue. I just pretend Shepard is still using a built in shield, ignore it saying barrier, and ignore the purple color of my shield bar. But, that's not quite cutting it for me.

[MELTOR13]

andy69156915 wrote...

Again, the vast majority of inconsistencies don't bug me, because I can fan theory them away well enough to not be bothered. I mean, I kind of already do that with the shield issue. I just pretend Shepard is still using a built in shield, ignore it saying barrier, and ignore the purple color of my shield bar. But, that's not quite cutting it for me.

So basically you're just admitting that you're whining for no good reason. Cool.