144 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

Russianbear0027 wrote...

As far as health regen goes, that isn't anything new, you don't remember the medical interfaces in ME1? 

I didn't say it was new.  I said it was a gameplay mechanic.  Injuries just aren't represented realistically in pretty much any game.  If you want to see a lore version of how it would "really" work, see the end of Retribution.  If you actually mainlined that much omnigel, you'd pretty much go comatose.

[wizardryforever]

Dude, this is not a retcon.  For it to be a retcon they would have to claim that it had always been this way, and anything you may have heard previously is incorrect.  They never explain this change at all, so it's not like it could be a retcon.  It's just a gameplay change, and a ridiculously minor one at that.

Also, FYI, the only difference between shields and barriers is the source of the effect.  Barriers use the eezo nodules and electrochemistry of a biotic's brain, and shields use a synthetic transmitter.  Otherwise, according to the lore, they should function exactly the same way.  You could handwave some of the effects like Overload by saying it affects the source and not the shield itself, or Warp by saying that synthetic emmiters have been designed to not be susceptible to the shredding effects of Warp (or at least not as much).  You'd be surprised how easily things like this can be explained away.

[corrin1984]

I think that even if one claims it's a retcon... it doesn't matter really. From a game play aspect, if you were a vanguard, you would have a biotic barrier, shields, and armor. Three bars to go through before your health is touched. From a balancing perspective... that's not really fair. So, they just said, if you're a biotic, you have a biotic barrier, regular person? Shields. It's such a small, small change that really from a Lore standpoint it's hardly noticeable. As far as thermal clips... again, gameplay mechanic. They didn't like the overheating mechanic they had in the first game. We've heard the 3rd game will include melee weapons. Is this a retcon? Not really, just a gameplay change. As the games go on, they will continue to tweak it. Because, it's never going to be perfect, but they can try to get it as close as possible.

[Zkyire]

andy69156915 wrote...

In the first game, your shields came from your armor. It was the source, and the shields were built right in. But in ME2, if your a biotic, your shield were actually biotic barriers. This has always bugged the crap out of me. What that means is that Shepard intentionally and knowingly turns off the shields in his/her suit. Reason being, if biotic Shepard has armor that is specifically based around built-in kinetic shields (kestral armor is a perfect example), but only has one shield meter, it means Shepard that Shepard is only using their own biotically made barriers and turning off the kinetic shields (which I'm not even sure is possible), or else Shepard would have either an extremely strong shield because the barrier is being combined with it, or would have 2 bars of shields.

And then, there's the factor that, how the heck does armor strengthen your self made biotic barrier? That makes absolutely no sense. It makes sense with shields, because the suit simply has stronger shielding and amplifiers, but for barriers it's just stupid. It makes sense for someone like Jack or Miranda, who have no armor anywhere on them to use barriers in place of shields, because again, no armor=no shields. But for Shepard, it's ridiculous. The only way it makes sense if if the shields boost is coming from biotic amps somehow built into the suit in place of shield generators, which I would think would have been mentioned being possible somewhere. And even then, there's no way to explain how the shield boosts you can buy and make with resources work with barriers.

This is why partially why I always give barrier to my biotic characters. That way, I can just pretend that Shepard is using the built in shields, the bar is blue instead of purple, and when I turn on a biotic barrier, it does what I said it should, which is add to the strength of the armors shields. Because otherwise, my suspension of disbelief is overstresses... That and barriers is pretty much brokenly awesome on a vanguard. By end-game, I get to over 900+ shield/barrier strength after every single charge, because of the charge's barrier boost adding to the barrier power adding to my base shield strength of the armor and research boosts.

Had to be done for gameplay though.

Otherwise Biotics would have armour, shields, and biotic barriers and would basically wipe the floor with the other classes.

Imagine a Vanguard with shields, a barrier, and then the geth shield boost.

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 12 août 2011 - 05:26 .

[dreman9999]

andy69156915 wrote...

habitat 67 wrote...

Would you quit using the word retcon where it doesn't fit?
Gah, it's so annoying.

It's a gameplay alteration. Those happen, otherwise we's all be still playing Qbert or something.

No, it's not. It's a lore alteration. Barriers and shields are essentially the same damn thing from a gameplay perspective. How is Shepard going from always relying on the suit to provide the shields to providing it themselves with their own power not a retcon? Or for that matter, why the heck armor that boosts kinetic shields, and only those, somehow making the barrier stronger not a retcon?

Not changing the word to barrier would have avoided this entirely.

Anyway, stop bringing up gameplay, this has absolutely 0% to do with gameplay.

...Oh, stop complaining and read some ME1 lore....
http://masseffect.wi...Shock_Absorbers
Shock Absorbers
Installing micro-gravimetric emitters into a combat suit artificially
increases mass, providing protection against concussive force delivered
by explosives, high impact ammo and biotic attacks such as Lift or
Throw.

..........
http://masseffect.wi...bat_Exoskeleton
Combat Exoskeleton
This prototype armor upgrade combines mechanical augmentation,
element zero microcores and firewall technology to give the wearer brute
strength, resistance to weapons force and resistance to biotic and tech
attacks.

...........
http://masseffect.wi...#Hardened_Weave
Hardened Weave
A complex filament network of element zero microcores combined with
advanced firewall technology provides protection against both biotic and tech attacks.
................
Point is that what stopped the attacks were the Hard suit upgrades, not protection the person had....The reason why the powers worked on unprotected enemies is because you overloaded the suits power source.

Modifié par dreman9999, 12 août 2011 - 05:34 .

[Someone With Mass]

Having four protections would be a little overkill.

The enemies have them just to make it a little more difficult.

[Xeranx]

dreman9999 wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

habitat 67 wrote...

Would you quit using the word retcon where it doesn't fit?
Gah, it's so annoying.

It's a gameplay alteration. Those happen, otherwise we's all be still playing Qbert or something.

No, it's not. It's a lore alteration. Barriers and shields are essentially the same damn thing from a gameplay perspective. How is Shepard going from always relying on the suit to provide the shields to providing it themselves with their own power not a retcon? Or for that matter, why the heck armor that boosts kinetic shields, and only those, somehow making the barrier stronger not a retcon?

Not changing the word to barrier would have avoided this entirely.

Anyway, stop bringing up gameplay, this has absolutely 0% to do with gameplay.

...Oh, stop complaining and read some ME1 lore....
http://masseffect.wi...Shock_Absorbers
Shock Absorbers
Installing micro-gravimetric emitters into a combat suit artificially
increases mass, providing protection against concussive force delivered
by explosives, high impact ammo and biotic attacks such as Lift or
Throw.

..........
http://masseffect.wi...bat_Exoskeleton
Combat Exoskeleton
This prototype armor upgrade combines mechanical augmentation,
element zero microcores and firewall technology to give the wearer brute
strength, resistance to weapons force and resistance to biotic and tech
attacks.

...........
http://masseffect.wi...#Hardened_Weave
Hardened Weave
A complex filament network of element zero microcores combined with
advanced firewall technology provides protection against both biotic and tech attacks.
................
Point is that what stopped the attacks were the Hard suit upgrades, not protection the person had....The reason why the powers worked on unprotected enemies is because you overloaded the suits power source.

You're using optional equipment mods to make your point?

[TexasToast712]

LGTX wrote...

It makes sense and is pardonable if it balances/diversifies the gameplay process. Which it did in ME2.

All it did was determine what color your shield bar was. It didnt balance anything. I prefer the blue one.

[SynheKatze]

So basically the problem is having your defenses to be named 'barriers' instead of 'shields'? Because they work the exact same way. Wow.

Anyway, it'd be interesting if someone had the character screen of the biotic Shepard from the SDCC demos.

Modifié par SynheKatze, 12 août 2011 - 06:12 .

[andy6915]

dreman9999- Not a single one of those links has anything to do with what I'm saying. Not even vaguely. What was the point in those?

For everyone else with the "but but but 3 bars" crap... No. I heve never once said that's what I want. I did say that if a biotic Shepard really use barriers non-stop as a form of shielding then it would only make sense if it added another bar or added to the strength of your shield (which is exactly what the barrier power does to begin with), because the armor Shepard equips already has shield emitters. If Shepard has a constant barrier on already, where's the suit's built-in shields? No where, even when the armor description tells you they are built in. That makes no sense at all. Did I say I wanted 2 bars? No, never, not once, not hinted at, not anything. I was merely explaining why it doesn't make sense. You all took that to mean I want a third bar. I swear, the lack of reading comprehension in here is painful.

You know want I do want? The word barrier changed back to shield for Shepard and Shepard only in the status screen.

Seriously, follow along here, I'll explain step by little step.

facts according to the game
1.All, all armors Shepard can wear in the game has its own built in shields, that are literally part of the suit.

2.Shepard as a biotic has a constant biotic barrier on made with his or her own power

3.If both of those facts are true, then the only way it makes sense is if Shepard has either an extra strong shield or a shield and a barrier bar on the same character. The built-in shield isn't going to go away just because Shepard is augmenting the shields with biotics.

4.What we are left with is Shepard wearing armors that somehow completely lack built-in shielding when the games own description in the armor and research panels make it clear that the armor your wearing has them. So, Shepard is wearing armor that says it has its own shield, but doesn't actually have them, leaving Shepard to have nothing but a biotic barrier. This is completely nonsense.

5.The best way to fix this is effortless. Change it so that Shepard is always using the suits shielding no matter what his/her class, like ME1 had it. What to do to make this change? Change the bar to blue, change to word barrer back to shields. Done, it now makes sense with the lore, like ME1 did


There, did everyone understand that at least?

[klxfx]

I was always under the impression that you couldn't have 2 shield systems working together because they interfere with each other. If you read the description for the redundant field generator (the one that regens your shields if they hit 0) it says that Cerberus has been trying to fix this. So basically, biotic barriers and kinetic barriers would mess each other up if used in conjunction.

[legion999]

didymos1120 wrote...

legion999 wrote...

You do know how unbalanced that would be right? Biotics would get barriers and shields while non biotics get shields only.

Um, no.  Look at Miranda: she only has shields, not a barrier and not barrier+shields, and she's a biotic.  Having a barrier is just an indicator that you're more vulnerable to certain attacks, same as Grunt's armor makes him more vulnerable to somewhat different attacks.  The only lore version of a biotic barrier is, well, Barrier: a temporary thing that can't be maintained for very long (well, except in ME1 where a correctly built character could have a cooldown shorter than its duration.  Which itself was an egregious lore violation, but most don't complain about because they enjoy being overpowered).

Did you read what I was responding to?

[andy6915]

klxfx wrote...

I was always under the impression that you couldn't have 2 shield systems working together because they interfere with each other. If you read the description for the redundant field generator (the one that regens your shields if they hit 0) it says that Cerberus has been trying to fix this. So basically, biotic barriers and kinetic barriers would mess each other up if used in conjunction.

They work similarly, but barriers and shields aren't the same. Barrier (the power) has always worked in conjunction with armor shielding perfectly in both games now.

The reason for what you mention is (I just checked on my ME2 game's research terminal) that shields use the same power source, so 2 shields will interfere with each other, because then end up fighting over the same power source. Barriers don't use the power source the suit's shields do, as they feed directly off the Eezo tumors in the biotic. Because of this, shields and barriers do not at all interfere with each other, because as far as your shields are concerned, the barrier is a completely different thing then itself.

Of course, this is me trying to interpret the "emergency shielding" items description. Still, it fits.

[corrin1984]

This argument seems to be as valid as saying it's a retcon that I can only change up to three outfits on my squad mates. In ME1 there was a huge range of choices. And... I mean I could buy tons of weapons, and use them all. But my solider in ME2 couldn't use them all. And what about Sub-machine guns... they weren't in ME1(as far as I recall)... And some armors were light, medium and heavy... they don't have that same thing in ME2...

Again... all these things are game mechanic changes. Not retcons. Not at all. Just game mechanic changes to make things more engaging to a larger audience.

[dreman9999]

andy69156915 wrote...

dreman9999- Not a single one of those links has anything to do with what I'm saying. Not even vaguely. What was the point in those?

For everyone else with the "but but but 3 bars" crap... No. I heve never once said that's what I want. I did say that if a biotic Shepard really use barriers non-stop as a form of shielding then it would only make sense if it added another bar or added to the strength of your shield (which is exactly what the barrier power does to begin with), because the armor Shepard equips already has shield emitters. If Shepard has a constant barrier on already, where's the suit's built-in shields? No where, even when the armor description tells you they are built in. That makes no sense at all. Did I say I wanted 2 bars? No, never, not once, not hinted at, not anything. I was merely explaining why it doesn't make sense. You all took that to mean I want a third bar. I swear, the lack of reading comprehension in here is painful.

You know want I do want? The word barrier changed back to shield for Shepard and Shepard only in the status screen.

Seriously, follow along here, I'll explain step by little step.

facts according to the game
1.All, all armors Shepard can wear in the game has its own built in shields, that are literally part of the suit.

2.Shepard as a biotic has a constant biotic barrier on made with his or her own power

3.If both of those facts are true, then the only way it makes sense is if Shepard has either an extra strong shield or a shield and a barrier bar on the same character. The built-in shield isn't going to go away just because Shepard is augmenting the shields with biotics.

4.What we are left with is Shepard wearing armors that somehow completely lack built-in shielding when the games own description in the armor and research panels make it clear that the armor your wearing has them. So, Shepard is wearing armor that says it has its own shield, but doesn't actually have them, leaving Shepard to have nothing but a biotic barrier. This is completely nonsense.

5.The best way to fix this is effortless. Change it so that Shepard is always using the suits shielding no matter what his/her class, like ME1 had it. What to do to make this change? Change the bar to blue, change to word barrer back to shields. Done, it now makes sense with the lore, like ME1 did


There, did everyone understand that at least?

1...The link show that biotic/tech power prevention in ME2 is not a retcon. It was in ME1, just the lower level enemies did not have it or it was not strong enough.
2.Also, this explines why protection stops powers.
....
Your complining that protection is a retcon but I link thing in ME1 the proves that it was in ME1, thus making it not a retcon and giving it an explination.
I don't see how it is not related.

[SandTrout]

This is a bad thread and the OP should feel bad for starting it.

[andy6915]

dreman9999 wrote...
1...The link show that biotic/tech power prevention in ME2 is not a retcon. It was in ME1, just the lower level enemies did not have it or it was not strong enough.
2.Also, this explines why protection stops powers.
....
Your complining that protection is a retcon but I link thing in ME1 the proves that it was in ME1, thus making it not a retcon and giving it an explination.
I don't see how it is not related.

Okay, what? What in the name of Earth are you talking about? I didn't mention protections on enemies, biotic protections, or anything remotely of the sort. It's like you have somehow managed to walk into the wrong topic or something, because your posts have no relevance at all.

[dreman9999]

andy69156915 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1...The link show that biotic/tech power prevention in ME2 is not a retcon. It was in ME1, just the lower level enemies did not have it or it was not strong enough.
2.Also, this explines why protection stops powers.
....
Your complining that protection is a retcon but I link thing in ME1 the proves that it was in ME1, thus making it not a retcon and giving it an explination.
I don't see how it is not related.

Okay, what? What in the name of Earth are you talking about? I didn't mention protections on enemies, biotic protections, or anything remotely of the sort. It's like you have somehow managed to walk into the wrong topic or something, because your posts have no relevance at all.

Ok, then think of it this way.... In ME1, Barriers  are stonger than kinetic shields and were a sourse of exta power to shields. With the added attack power weapons have now, older kinetic sheild could not keep up and need better power tokeep up. With biotic natrual making the energy soruce themselves, Enzo, all they  did to upgrade it to power the protection as a barrier.What this means is, they made the ME1 barrier standerd for biotics protection. They just took the ME1 barrier system and made it constant. Even Sheperd as a biotic uses barriers. The barrier power now just enhances the barrier or protection you or they have.

[SandTrout]

@andyRANDOMNUMBERS,

You are complaining about biotics getting barriers as protection in ME2 instead of shields. This is not true. Just like in ME1, biotics get shields that are reinforced by biotic barriers. The only difference is that you no longer have to actively use a 'barrier' skill in order to utilize it.

There is no retcon, you just wanted something to complain about, which is really quite sad. If you want to complain that much, just follow politics instead. At least that will give you something valid to complain about.

[dreman9999]

Xeranx wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

habitat 67 wrote...

Would you quit using the word retcon where it doesn't fit?
Gah, it's so annoying.

It's a gameplay alteration. Those happen, otherwise we's all be still playing Qbert or something.

No, it's not. It's a lore alteration. Barriers and shields are essentially the same damn thing from a gameplay perspective. How is Shepard going from always relying on the suit to provide the shields to providing it themselves with their own power not a retcon? Or for that matter, why the heck armor that boosts kinetic shields, and only those, somehow making the barrier stronger not a retcon?

Not changing the word to barrier would have avoided this entirely.

Anyway, stop bringing up gameplay, this has absolutely 0% to do with gameplay.

...Oh, stop complaining and read some ME1 lore....
http://masseffect.wi...Shock_Absorbers
Shock Absorbers
Installing micro-gravimetric emitters into a combat suit artificially
increases mass, providing protection against concussive force delivered
by explosives, high impact ammo and biotic attacks such as Lift or
Throw.

..........
http://masseffect.wi...bat_Exoskeleton
Combat Exoskeleton
This prototype armor upgrade combines mechanical augmentation,
element zero microcores and firewall technology to give the wearer brute
strength, resistance to weapons force and resistance to biotic and tech
attacks.

...........
http://masseffect.wi...#Hardened_Weave
Hardened Weave
A complex filament network of element zero microcores combined with
advanced firewall technology provides protection against both biotic and tech attacks.
................
Point is that what stopped the attacks were the Hard suit upgrades, not protection the person had....The reason why the powers worked on unprotected enemies is because you overloaded the suits power source.

You're using optional equipment mods to make your point?

Yes...Why because they are their and nothing is stating agenst the fact that the opinional armor upgrades became standerd.

[SojournerN7]

SandTrout wrote...
@andyRANDOMNUMBERS,

You are complaining about biotics getting barriers as protection in ME2 instead of shields. This is not true. Just like in ME1, biotics get shields that are reinforced by biotic barriers. The only difference is that you no longer have to actively use a 'barrier' skill in order to utilize it.

There is no retcon...

Exactly. +1.

[Nashiktal]

But in lore biotics can barely do anything without frying their system. Yes we can toss around Ymir like ther were nothing. (unless they have armor, in which case they weigh more than a Planet)

Its the same thing mate.'

[Vengeful Nature]

I'ma disappointed. I thought this thread would be about how, in ME1, it's stated that shields don't protect against environmental hazards or vacuum, only fast-moving objects, and then in ME2 they do all of these things. That's the greater retcon, methinks.

[andy6915]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

I'ma disappointed. I thought this thread would be about how, in ME1, it's stated that shields don't protect against environmental hazards or vacuum, only fast-moving objects, and then in ME2 they do all of these things. That's the greater retcon, methinks.

Yeah. A lot of things got weird since Bioware changed health system. It used to be that health and shields were their own separate health bars, and were distinct from each other, and could be damage without effecting the other depending on the damage source. Since changing it to shields pretty much being a second health bar that sits over top of the actual healthbar, now your health can't possibly be damaged before the shield are gone.

I don't like the change. I actually think you and enemies had a greater range of tactics and strategies to kill with when your health and shields were separate. Oh well, this isn't a game ruiner. Actually, nothing in this topic is.

dremen999, you seem to overestimate how much effect a mere two years have had. I don't think weapons in ME2 are supposed to actually be stronger then the ones in ME1. They just changed the damage values to make the combat less stat based and more shooter-like. Besides, specter X weaponry killed things faster then pretty much anything in ME2, and even some of the better X level non-specter weapons types too. Seriously, everyone but humans have been around for centuries, and making improvements to tech and weaponry for that time, the tech isn't going to make a jump like that in just 2 years.

Modifié par andy69156915, 12 août 2011 - 09:42 .

[Praetor Knight]

Well, I missed much in this discussion, but I'll add some stuff anyway.
My darn PC is on the fritz, so I need to get some new hardware right now

So some relevant info:

Kinetic Barriers ("Shields")

Kinetic barriers, colloquially called "shields", provide protection against most mass accelerator weapons. Whether on a starship or a soldier's suit of armor, the basic principle remains the same.

Kinetic barriers are repulsive mass effect fields projected from tiny emitters. These shields safely deflect small objects traveling at rapid velocities. This affords protection from bullets and other dangerous projectiles, but still allows the user to sit down without knocking away their chair.

The shielding afforded by kinetic barriers does not protect against extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation.

So even in the codex entry, the labels, barrier / shields seem interchangeable.

Biotics

Biotics is the ability of rare individuals to manipulate dark energy and create mass effect fields through the use of electrical impulses from the brain. Intense training and surgically-implanted amplifiers are necessary for a biotic to produce mass effect fields powerful enough for practical use. The relative strength of biotic abilities varies greatly among species and with each individual.

There are three branches of biotics. TELEKINESIS uses mass-lowering fields to levitate or impel objects. Mass-raising KINETIC FIELDS are used to block or pin objects. DISTORTION uses rapidly shifting mass fields to shred objects.

Most organic species are capable of developing biotic abilities, though there are risks involved. Biotics are the result of in-utero exposure to element zero. This usually causes fatal cancers in the victim, but in rare cases it coalesces into nodules within the fetus's developing nervous system.

Barrier

Barrier is a biotic talent available to Adepts, Sentinels, the Asari Scientist, and the Krogan Battlemaster; Barrier is unlockable for Vanguards. Barrier surrounds the user with a high-gravity mass effect field essentially strengthening the player's shields for a certain period of time (or until the extra points are taken off by damage, whichever comes first). Barriers do not protect against physical damage like melee attacks, debris or environmental hazards.

So why can't artificially made "shields" from the armor and mods not work with the biotically made "shield"?