144 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

Praetor Shepard wrote...
So why can't artificially made "shields" from the armor and mods not work with the biotically made "shield"?

They do, that isn't even arguable. That's exactly how the barrier power works, it simply adds extra strength to the already existing armor shielding. The problem is, that should lead to your shield being extra strong, because the armors shields are built, and thus, will be there no matter what you do, whether you use biotic barriers or not. The barrier will just add to what is already there.

Thing is, this doesn't happen. Instead, the barrier somehow completely overwrites the armor's bullt in shields for no reason other then gameplay balance... Yet somehow still has the extra shield strength from the armor anyway. It's a huge contradiction. If they just change the canon back to Shepard simply using the armors shielding like in the first game, it will make sense again. Shepard will have a shield from the armors emitters, and can then strengthen it with biotic barriers for a short time. That's already how barrier works in ME1 and in ME2 for anyone not an adept or a vanguard that took the barrier bonus power.

[Bluko]

Well as I understood it from ME1 Biotics could strengthen their shields by creating an additional Barrier.

I don't take too much issue with Biotics using Barriers in ME2, but the OP is right that it is a bit silly that these could be sustained in the same manner as a Shield. A Biotic Barrier should really only be a temporary defense employed by Biotics, but whatever. It is silly that Biotics wouldn't still make use of convential Shields or wear light armor for that matter all things considered.

Of course almost all of the abilities in ME2 are completely silly though. They kind of gave up on trying to scientifically explain things in the game and simply changed stuff to make gameplay more interesting. It's a tad unfortunate that the lore they've created suffers as a result and it does worry me how future Mass Effect material will handle this. The games should continue to play fine, but any sort of expansion material is going to be hapharzard and I think it pretty much all but kills the universe continuing as a legitimate Sci-Fi. It's just getting to the point where it is as soft as Star Wars which is really more Space Fantasy. Kind of disappointing for me anyways as I was hoping this was going to be an exciting new Sci-Fi universe.

Though as others have mentioned ME1 had a few silly abilities as well such as Marksmen, Immunity, etc. I really don't get to hung up on gameplay Powers as they are there purely for the game typically. It's not really worth fretting over usually.

To me Thermals Clips, lack of Armor, etc. is a different story as that's going beyond simply being gameplay changes and really does damage the credibility of the series as it's not just a game thing anymore. There's also really no good basis for such additions/changes other then to be more fashionable which is really dumb if you ask me. If you're doing stuff to simply be cool you may as well let Shepard "breathe" in space and fly through the center of Stars naked if you ask me.

[didymos1120]

Bluko wrote...
If you're doing stuff to simply be cool you may as well let Shepard "breathe" in space and fly through the center of Stars naked if you ask me.

The Normandy can do that on the Galaxy Map.  Not that you're supposed to treat that as literal.

[Bluko]

didymos1120 wrote...

Bluko wrote...
If you're doing stuff to simply be cool you may as well let Shepard "breathe" in space and fly through the center of Stars naked if you ask me.

The Normandy can do that on the Galaxy Map.  Not that you're supposed to treat that as literal.

I don't take it literally and consider it merely an oversight and you should be able to fly over/under a star or planet anyways. Then again I think the Galaxy Map in ME2 is pretty pointless to begin with. Prefer the ME1 way of handling things where you more or less choose destinations and had pretty views of planets. What exactly is the point of flying a mini Normandy? It just makes me feel like I'm playing an old arcade game or the Developers believe we're as easily amused as 4 years old.

[didymos1120]

Bluko wrote...

What exactly is the point of flying a mini Normandy?

I think they just thought "Oh, it'll be more interactive and stuff!" and then built it, instead of thinking some more.

[Someone With Mass]

didymos1120 wrote...

Bluko wrote...

What exactly is the point of flying a mini Normandy?

I think they just thought "Oh, it'll be more interactive and stuff!" and then built it, instead of thinking some more.

Dude, if I have to spend that much time at the galaxy map, I want something that's "interactive and stuff", so I don't die of boredom.

[InvincibleHero]

SandTrout wrote...

@andyRANDOMNUMBERS,

You are complaining about biotics getting barriers as protection in ME2 instead of shields. This is not true. Just like in ME1, biotics get shields that are reinforced by biotic barriers. The only difference is that you no longer have to actively use a 'barrier' skill in order to utilize it.

There is no retcon, you just wanted something to complain about, which is really quite sad. If you want to complain that much, just follow politics instead. At least that will give you something valid to complain about.

I agree with that interpretation. It is like warp team ammo. The biotic changes the ammo being fired from all guns. Hence a bitoic still has the regualr shield emitter just adding a little to it in the same manner. While the full barrier power requires full concentration hence global cool down and time limit until it exhausts.

[mauro2222]

I´d be more worried by the fact that shields are made of glass, can stop biotic attacks and physical attacks.

Modifié par mauro2222, 13 août 2011 - 02:03 .

[el master pr]

Really? The shield/barrier stuff? Come on, it's a simple gameplay aspect that may or may not have changed the lore of ME. Imho, having barriers instead of shields as a biotic does not change the fact that hundreds of sentient dreadnoughts are bent on destroying organic life, galactically speaking, and, just for the lulz, are starting by your homeworld, which in turn is your homeworld irl.

You know, in the games and the ME wiki there is something called "Galactic Codex". It explains the appearance of the thermal clips very well, which means it is not a retcon. Also, the fact that you did not see them in ME1 does not mean the geth were not using them. You could say that, Idk, Shepard did not know what those were so he completely ignored them.

With all due respect and no intentions to offend anyone, I think this is rubbish.

Modifié par el master pr, 13 août 2011 - 03:02 .

[SandTrout]

andy69156915 wrote...

They do, that isn't even arguable. That's exactly how the barrier power works, it simply adds extra strength to the already existing armor shielding. The problem is, that should lead to your shield being extra strong, because the armors shields are built, and thus, will be there no matter what you do, whether you use biotic barriers or not. The barrier will just add to what is already there.

Thing is, this doesn't happen. Instead, the barrier somehow completely overwrites the armor's bullt in shields for no reason other then gameplay balance... Yet somehow still has the extra shield strength from the armor anyway. It's a huge contradiction. If they just change the canon back to Shepard simply using the armors shielding like in the first game, it will make sense again. Shepard will have a shield from the armors emitters, and can then strengthen it with biotic barriers for a short time. That's already how barrier works in ME1 and in ME2 for anyone not an adept or a vanguard that took the barrier bonus power.

You realize that the defensive power of the ME1 classes was about comprable, don't you? Engineers, Sentinels, and Infiltrators all had electronics talent which would increase their shield power passively. Adepts and Vanguards had barrier, which had a recharge that was shorter than the duration, once you got it high enough level. Soldiers had immunity which could dramatically reduce any damage they received.

ME2 just sets these things in the background rather than requiring you to dedicate skill points toward them since you probably already did back in ME1.

You're just complaining to complain, and as I have already said, it's rather pathetic.

[dreman9999]

andy69156915 wrote...

Vengeful Nature wrote...

I'ma disappointed. I thought this thread would be about how, in ME1, it's stated that shields don't protect against environmental hazards or vacuum, only fast-moving objects, and then in ME2 they do all of these things. That's the greater retcon, methinks.

Yeah. A lot of things got weird since Bioware changed health system. It used to be that health and shields were their own separate health bars, and were distinct from each other, and could be damage without effecting the other depending on the damage source. Since changing it to shields pretty much being a second health bar that sits over top of the actual healthbar, now your health can't possibly be damaged before the shield are gone.

I don't like the change. I actually think you and enemies had a greater range of tactics and strategies to kill with when your health and shields were separate. Oh well, this isn't a game ruiner. Actually, nothing in this topic is.

dremen999, you seem to overestimate how much effect a mere two years have had. I don't think weapons in ME2 are supposed to actually be stronger then the ones in ME1. They just changed the damage values to make the combat less stat based and more shooter-like. Besides, specter X weaponry killed things faster then pretty much anything in ME2, and even some of the better X level non-specter weapons types too. Seriously, everyone but humans have been around for centuries, and making improvements to tech and weaponry for that time, the tech isn't going to make a jump like that in just 2 years.

http://social.biowar...1/index/1143264

It's not an overestamation. Weapons do way more damage on protection  then it did in ME1. Each weapon does bonus damage on protection and or types of protection. On top of that, Ammo has an effect on targets that ether stops them, harms them more, and stops them from shooting.
The fact remains....ME2 weapon>>>>>>>>>>>>ME1 weapons.
And because of that combat defence had to change or be overpowered.

[dreman9999]

Bluko wrote...

Well as I understood it from ME1 Biotics could strengthen their shields by creating an additional Barrier.

I don't take too much issue with Biotics using Barriers in ME2, but the OP is right that it is a bit silly that these could be sustained in the same manner as a Shield. A Biotic Barrier should really only be a temporary defense employed by Biotics, but whatever. It is silly that Biotics wouldn't still make use of convential Shields or wear light armor for that matter all things considered.

Of course almost all of the abilities in ME2 are completely silly though. They kind of gave up on trying to scientifically explain things in the game and simply changed stuff to make gameplay more interesting. It's a tad unfortunate that the lore they've created suffers as a result and it does worry me how future Mass Effect material will handle this. The games should continue to play fine, but any sort of expansion material is going to be hapharzard and I think it pretty much all but kills the universe continuing as a legitimate Sci-Fi. It's just getting to the point where it is as soft as Star Wars which is really more Space Fantasy. Kind of disappointing for me anyways as I was hoping this was going to be an exciting new Sci-Fi universe.

Though as others have mentioned ME1 had a few silly abilities as well such as Marksmen, Immunity, etc. I really don't get to hung up on gameplay Powers as they are there purely for the game typically. It's not really worth fretting over usually.

To me Thermals Clips, lack of Armor, etc. is a different story as that's going beyond simply being gameplay changes and really does damage the credibility of the series as it's not just a game thing anymore. There's also really no good basis for such additions/changes other then to be more fashionable which is really dumb if you ask me. If you're doing stuff to simply be cool you may as well let Shepard "breathe" in space and fly through the center of Stars naked if you ask me.

Here's the thing. In ME kenetic barriers are powered by enzo batteries.
http://masseffect.wi...#Shield_Battery
And toincrease protection, more power is need, which is why in ME1 and ME2 you can upgrade the shields for this. And true enough, biotic barriers increase kenetic shields as well but the biotic barrier needs no extra battery, just an able biotic. With the fact that biotics can increase their defence in battle with out need of a external power source, they don't need a stronger kinetic shield to fight with, just a better biotic barrier system nor do they need an enzo battery because they are enzo batteries. So the manifactuers just made kinetic shield that ran off of biotic energy and made a stable  biotic barrier that's regenerable.

[AdmiralCheez]

Eh, never bothered me.

[didymos1120]

dreman9999 wrote...

Here's the thing. In ME kenetic barriers are powered by e[e]zo batteries.

Eezo is not a power source.  I don't know why so many people think that it is. You need a power source to use it. And I don't know why you linked to that upgrade, because it says not a damn thing about "eezo batteries".  It simply says it adds extra capacitance to a hard suit, which means more current to run through the eezo that's part of the kinetic barrier system.

[Shotokanguy]

Ugh, 5 pages. These topics always have a bunch of responses when it's something interesting but I don't want to read every response.

Anyway, it's not a retcon just because they didn't explain how it worked.

I always just say there is a system in the hardsuit that allows a biotic to create a mass effect field barrier, then the suit maintains it without the biotic needing to concentrate. It's a different system for biotics only, but it fits in the same spot on the hardsuit or something.

[In Exile]

andy69156915 wrote...
Clips weren't used until after Shepard's death. So please explain how there are thermal clips all over the planet the Gernsback (Jacob's loyalty mission) crashed on, the crash happening 10 years before ME2. You know, without calling retcon.

A plothole or a gameplay mechanic. Take your pick. Neither makes them a retcon. 

[el master pr]

In Exile wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...
Clips weren't used until after Shepard's death. So please explain how there are thermal clips all over the planet the Gernsback (Jacob's loyalty mission) crashed on, the crash happening 10 years before ME2. You know, without calling retcon.

A plothole or a gameplay mechanic. Take your pick. Neither makes them a retcon. 

On one of didymos1120's links to audio cut from earlier versions of ME2 contains the codex entry for thermal clips:

http://social.biowar...5/index/3328554

The text is also on the ME wiki:

http://masseffect.wi...t#Thermal_Clips


Both of these referenced "leads" are evidence that thermal clips are not a retcon, just a measure/technological advancement to gain an edge against the geth. If we follow this "leads", we can assume that the thermal clips on Aeia2175 are just a simple plothole that was overlooked because, hey, would you like to end up without ammo? otherwise, we'd run out of ammo before completing the mission. If you have any problem with BW sacrificing gameplay for an insignificant plotpoint, you Sir, accidentally the logic. With all due respect, of course. Don't want to sound inflammatory.

Modifié par el master pr, 13 août 2011 - 05:23 .

[In Exile]

el master pr wrote...
Both of these referenced "leads" are evidence that thermal clips are not a retcon, just a measure/technological advancement to gain an edge against the geth. If we follow this "leads", we can assume that the thermal clips on Aeia2175 are just a simple plothole that was overlooked because, hey, would you like to end up without ammo? otherwise, we'd run out of ammo before completing the mission. If you have any problem with BW sacrificing gameplay for an insignificant plotpoint, you Sir, accidentally the logic. With all due respect, of course. Don't want to sound inflammatory.

Eh? I agree with you. 

[CuseGirl]

Wut is it with OP's with the chicken avatar? Is that like the symbol of video gaming complainthood?

[RPGamer13]

What with people and everything needing to make sense?

They didn't want you to have weapons with essentially infinite ammo, so no more overheating weapons.  If it were me, I would have just called it ammo instead of thermal clips.  But thermal clips make it sound like weapons still overheat, they just don't cooldown on their own anymore and so you need thermal clips to cool the weapon down.

How's that for making sense? Does that not make sense?

Someone With Mass wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

habitat 67 wrote...
Would you quit using the word retcon where it doesn't fit?
Gah, it's so annoying.

+1

+2

The people I've seen on this forum that actually know what "retcon" means are so few, I could probably count them on one hand.

+3

And I'm one of them.  I hate it myself when people misuse words.

Only game I've seen with such a thing is Ninja Gaiden.

Another one: metagaming

WTF?  I looked it up because I didn't even know what it meant, and now that I do it pisses me off to see it as often as I do.

[Gabey5]

do you know what retcon means? this is not

[Praetor Knight]

RPGamer13 wrote...

What with people and everything needing to make sense?

They didn't want you to have weapons with essentially infinite ammo, so no more overheating weapons.  If it were me, I would have just called it ammo instead of thermal clips.  But thermal clips make it sound like weapons still overheat, they just don't cooldown on their own anymore and so you need thermal clips to cool the weapon down.

How's that for making sense? Does that not make sense?

But ammo and Thermal Clips are still separate from what I can remember.

[Chala]

If this is a retcon I'm pretty sure your head exploded when you saw the thermal clips...
It's just a gameplay mechanic, nothing more, nothing less. I don't see the problem on this change.
Some people on this forums are pretty paranoids, I mean... Why everything has to be a retcon? or a "OMG. the game has been dumbed down now it's another CoD rip off aaahhhh"?
Some complaints are understandable ... But this? This is one that makes you wonder if humanity is really an intelligent race.

[Ahglock]

I had the same reaction. I thought it was a lame gimmick. Yeah, this dude is a biotic but he'd have to be dumb to rely on his biotics when he could just have his armor do it for him. And I think it is lame it is continuing forward into ME3. It doesn't break the game or anything, but it is lame.

[Aumata]

Pretty damn funny when you think about that in the universe it is the protection system are all kinetic barriers anyway. Just a gameplay mechanic, to take the place of kinetic shields, why would they do that? I have no idea, probably the whole make the game faster instead of tactical, but that just me. I treat it all like kinetic barriers, because it really is stupid when one have to think about it. Why use barrier constantly when I can just have my kinetic barrier on. Though the OP have a point, everybody jump on his ass for mention this, and he wasn't making a big ****ing deal over it.