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[Ace of Dawn]

Gameplay and story segregation.

Shepard is incapable of jumping in Mass Effect gameplay, that mean he can't jump?

Yes, shield upgrades improve *all* stats, but it is not a reality in-universe, and only done for *our* convenience. It's like being able to flip a tank in Halo. Master Chief is nowhere near strong enough to do so, never mind the fact that flipping a tank is implausible to begin with.

[Shotokanguy]

^To be fair, I'm sure a Spartan could move a tank, it would just take him a few minutes to get it back up.

But yeah, gameplay and story segregation is an important thing, I think, for some of the concepts in the ME series. I always assume that Shepard and Co. carry around way more thermal clips than you actually get in gameplay - it's guaranteed that you'll run out, so it wouldn't make sense for them to always carry so few.

[Jayce]

crimzontearz wrote...

Thermal clips ARE a retcon. According to lore the geth introduced them but the geth never used them in ME1. It also makes no sense logistically....adding on top of the fact that the Devs basically said they added thermal clips to add tension (and yet I rarely ever run out of ammo ever) BUT a simple active cooldown system ala GoW troikas would have added that without killing the lore or logic (the explanation would have been simple too)

No they are not. The lore is perfectly clear. Thermal clips were introduced as a result of an arms race between the Geth Heretics and the Council races during the 2 years of war that you spent lying on an operating table.

Want a real world example? The RAF and Luftwaffe were using propeller driven biplanes in 1938. By 1940 they using high performance monoplanes, by 1944 they were using jets.... It took just 6 years of war to go from the Gloster Gladiator to the Gloster Meteor.

I don't think its all that hard to believe 2 years of war could drive a step change in small arms.

[celuloid]

I am with OP. Poor distinction between shields and barriers skill for Shepard makes the game lesser.
When playing biotic class I want to have both normal shields and biotic barrier skill as a standard, and be able to invest points in them.

[SandTrout]

Everyone realizes that the OP troll has left the building, right?

[Reptillius]

Xeranx wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

it took me like 4 ME2 playthroughs to notice that my biotics, it said "barrier" instead of shields lol.

its a gameplay gimmick to make biotics alittle different, thats all.

in ME1 howcome when you used barrier it just strengthened your shields instead of having a separate barrier strength bar, huh? shouldnt that bother you too?

I don't know about what happens on Xbox, but on PC barrier forms a solid, thin, white line around your shield meter in ME.  Barrier forms an extra layer of protection which, in terms of gameplay, is represented as strengthing of the shield because of said extra defense.  It's not a problem.

Actually I'm gonna go with this one mostly... The Barrier in the first game basically overwrites the old shields... Tieing in well with the idea that you generally can't have two shield affects going at the same time. You could also argue easily that instead of powering shields it helps power the biotic affect for a much longer duration with a whole heck of a lot less strain on the biotic... Perhaps an advancement.

Combine them perhaps with certain armour mods that perhaps have become a standard feature in many armours in the 2 years between ME1 and ME2 and this could help support the idea that the armour itself actually helps power that sustained biotic shield instead of the mechanical shield.

Then the only thing that is actually breaking any lore in any way would be the Actual Barrier Power in ME2... Because in the first game it overwrites armour and strengthens them.  In the second game it actually gives you a second effect basically occupying the same exact space around you.

You can have 0 armour or 4 armour in ME1 and as soon as you hit that barrier power. which you can potentially keep up indefinitely. You jump all the way up to like 5 or 6 and the only way to tell it's special is that white glow around the armour boxes.  You don't get a full set of armour bars on top of it to wipe out as well when they shoot you enough to take out your barrier.

So the end result is no Retcon... the end result is lore contradicting bonus power.  I blame Jacob for that.

[Xeranx]

Jayce F wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Thermal clips ARE a retcon. According to lore the geth introduced them but the geth never used them in ME1. It also makes no sense logistically....adding on top of the fact that the Devs basically said they added thermal clips to add tension (and yet I rarely ever run out of ammo ever) BUT a simple active cooldown system ala GoW troikas would have added that without killing the lore or logic (the explanation would have been simple too)

No they are not. The lore is perfectly clear. Thermal clips were introduced as a result of an arms race between the Geth Heretics and the Council races during the 2 years of war that you spent lying on an operating table.

Want a real world example? The RAF and Luftwaffe were using propeller driven biplanes in 1938. By 1940 they using high performance monoplanes, by 1944 they were using jets.... It took just 6 years of war to go from the Gloster Gladiator to the Gloster Meteor.

I don't think its all that hard to believe 2 years of war could drive a step change in small arms.

The codex mentions that it was picked up from Geth tech thereby trying to force the idea that the Geth changed things up.  Legion never made a mention as to why the Geth modified their weaponry to use thermal clips.  Also thermal clips instead of a coolant system?  These are machines aren't they?  They don't use analog speech because it's inefficient and instead communicate at "the speed of light" as per Legion's statement.

It is a retcon and a horribly done one at that.

[vader da slayer]

andy69156915 wrote...

habitat 67 wrote...

Would you quit using the word retcon where it doesn't fit?
Gah, it's so annoying.

It's a gameplay alteration. Those happen, otherwise we's all be still playing Qbert or something.

No, it's not. It's a lore alteration. Barriers and shields are essentially the same damn thing from a gameplay perspective. How is Shepard going from always relying on the suit to provide the shields to providing it themselves with their own power not a retcon? Or for that matter, why the heck armor that boosts kinetic shields, and only those, somehow making the barrier stronger not a retcon?

Not changing the word to barrier would have avoided this entirely.

Anyway, stop bringing up gameplay, this has absolutely 0% to do with gameplay.

it is a gameplay alteration. in the Retribution novel the biotics still use kinectic barriers. it was done in ME3 to keep overload from being too powerful (as then it would be something you would never need to not have).

[Reptillius]

Xeranx wrote...

Jayce F wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Thermal clips ARE a retcon. According to lore the geth introduced them but the geth never used them in ME1. It also makes no sense logistically....adding on top of the fact that the Devs basically said they added thermal clips to add tension (and yet I rarely ever run out of ammo ever) BUT a simple active cooldown system ala GoW troikas would have added that without killing the lore or logic (the explanation would have been simple too)

No they are not. The lore is perfectly clear. Thermal clips were introduced as a result of an arms race between the Geth Heretics and the Council races during the 2 years of war that you spent lying on an operating table.

Want a real world example? The RAF and Luftwaffe were using propeller driven biplanes in 1938. By 1940 they using high performance monoplanes, by 1944 they were using jets.... It took just 6 years of war to go from the Gloster Gladiator to the Gloster Meteor.

I don't think its all that hard to believe 2 years of war could drive a step change in small arms.

The codex mentions that it was picked up from Geth tech thereby trying to force the idea that the Geth changed things up.  Legion never made a mention as to why the Geth modified their weaponry to use thermal clips.  Also thermal clips instead of a coolant system?  These are machines aren't they?  They don't use analog speech because it's inefficient and instead communicate at "the speed of light" as per Legion's statement.

It is a retcon and a horribly done one at that.

Why rely on a potentially inneficient coolant system if your a machine that is usually prepared for various things and can instead use a disposable heat sink instead?  The ammo in both games is potentially infinite what has changed is how they handle the heat build up in the weapons...

What is dumb is that the thermal clips are not resuable... It seems like you should be able to potentially stash them somewhere even hot to let them cool down and use again later which the game doesn't allow you to do.  The geth being intelligent machines probably do have some way to re-use thermal clips... the stupid citadel races still haven't figured that one out.  It's not really a retcon and it's not badly done for the most part. Just has a couple oversights in it's implimentation for the sake of game play.

Modifié par Reptillius, 13 août 2011 - 09:01 .

[Last Vizard]

Jayce F wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Thermal clips ARE a retcon. According to lore the geth introduced them but the geth never used them in ME1. It also makes no sense logistically....adding on top of the fact that the Devs basically said they added thermal clips to add tension (and yet I rarely ever run out of ammo ever) BUT a simple active cooldown system ala GoW troikas would have added that without killing the lore or logic (the explanation would have been simple too)

No they are not. The lore is perfectly clear. Thermal clips were introduced as a result of an arms race between the Geth Heretics and the Council races during the 2 years of war that you spent lying on an operating table.

Want a real world example? The RAF and Luftwaffe were using propeller driven biplanes in 1938. By 1940 they using high performance monoplanes, by 1944 they were using jets.... It took just 6 years of war to go from the Gloster Gladiator to the Gloster Meteor.

I don't think its all that hard to believe 2 years of war could drive a step change in small arms.

I doubt any military in the universe would switch from weapons that pretty much never need to be reloaded and weapons that need thermal clips (thats a step backwards).... ask anyone in the military which gun they would prefer and they'll laugh, further still is the fact that now you require ammo as part of logistical operations and also money will now have to be spent on buying ammo................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ no, thermal clips would not catch on with the military just so they can fire roughly the same amount of ammo then reload instead of waiting for the weapon to reload.

[SandTrout]

Last Vizard wrote...

I doubt any military in the universe would switch from weapons that pretty much never need to be reloaded and weapons that need thermal clips (thats a step backwards).... ask anyone in the military which gun they would prefer and they'll laugh, further still is the fact that now you require ammo as part of logistical operations and also money will now have to be spent on buying ammo................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ no, thermal clips would not catch on with the military just so they can fire roughly the same amount of ammo then reload instead of waiting for the weapon to reload.

Incorrect conclusion based on ignoring data.

The reason that they adapted to the Geth model was because it allowed the geth to maintain greater rates of sustained fire. Thermal clips are very small (only about the size of a shotgun shell), and enough can be carried on a soldier to easily carry enough for whatever mission they're on. Overall performance is increased by use of this standard.

The silly part is how the clips work in the game mechanics exactly like ammo. The weapons should be able to bleed heat when not in use, and used thermal clips should be able to be retained and reused. However, this is really just a gameplay mechanic issue, and for me easily falls under suspension of disbelief.

If it were my option, I would prefer that ME3 weapons both bleed heat and can eject heat-sinks, but that's a completely separate discussion.

[Ace of Dawn]

SandTrout wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

I doubt any military in the universe would switch from weapons that pretty much never need to be reloaded and weapons that need thermal clips (thats a step backwards).... ask anyone in the military which gun they would prefer and they'll laugh, further still is the fact that now you require ammo as part of logistical operations and also money will now have to be spent on buying ammo................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ no, thermal clips would not catch on with the military just so they can fire roughly the same amount of ammo then reload instead of waiting for the weapon to reload.

Incorrect conclusion based on ignoring data.

The reason that they adapted to the Geth model was because it allowed the geth to maintain greater rates of sustained fire. Thermal clips are very small (only about the size of a shotgun shell), and enough can be carried on a soldier to easily carry enough for whatever mission they're on. Overall performance is increased by use of this standard.

The silly part is how the clips work in the game mechanics exactly like ammo. The weapons should be able to bleed heat when not in use, and used thermal clips should be able to be retained and reused. However, this is really just a gameplay mechanic issue, and for me easily falls under suspension of disbelief.

If it were my option, I would prefer that ME3 weapons both bleed heat and can eject heat-sinks, but that's a completely separate discussion.

I'm sure in reality they would, and they in fact did when the game was being developed. The issue is that they make things a little unbalanced in some way, so they made it exclusively function the way they do now. As far as I know, nothing clearly states heat sinks do otherwise than the clearly balanced and gameplay oriented view of Mass Effect 2.

In reference to another poster, a tank is easily 65 tons, a Spartan half a ton. Nevermind the weight is impossibly for him to remotely lift (I think they can only lift 2 or 3 times their weight), the tank is massive. There would be no realistic way for them to flip a tank.

[The Big Nothing]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

habitat 67 wrote...
Would you quit using the word retcon where it doesn't fit?
Gah, it's so annoying.

+1

+2

The people I've seen on this forum that actually know what "retcon" means are so few, I could probably count them on one hand.

- 3

The amount of pretentious people on these forums is so numerous, I probably couldn't count them on all of the fingers and toes on all of the people on all of the BioWare development teams.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 14 août 2011 - 12:41 .

[SandTrout]

The Big Nothing wrote...

- 3

The amount of pretentious people on these forums is so numerous, I probably couldn't count them on all of the fingers and toes on all of the people on all of the BioWare development teams.

Asking people to actually know the deffinition of the term they are using is pretentious?

[Someone With Mass]

Basically this.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 14 août 2011 - 01:18 .

[Last Vizard]

SandTrout wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

I doubt any military in the universe would switch from weapons that pretty much never need to be reloaded and weapons that need thermal clips (thats a step backwards).... ask anyone in the military which gun they would prefer and they'll laugh, further still is the fact that now you require ammo as part of logistical operations and also money will now have to be spent on buying ammo................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ no, thermal clips would not catch on with the military just so they can fire roughly the same amount of ammo then reload instead of waiting for the weapon to reload.

Incorrect conclusion based on ignoring data.

The reason that they adapted to the Geth model was because it allowed the geth to maintain greater rates of sustained fire. Thermal clips are very small (only about the size of a shotgun shell), and enough can be carried on a soldier to easily carry enough for whatever mission they're on. Overall performance is increased by use of this standard.

The silly part is how the clips work in the game mechanics exactly like ammo. The weapons should be able to bleed heat when not in use, and used thermal clips should be able to be retained and reused. However, this is really just a gameplay mechanic issue, and for me easily falls under suspension of disbelief.

If it were my option, I would prefer that ME3 weapons both bleed heat and can eject heat-sinks, but that's a completely separate discussion.

I understand it was done for a very stupid game play mechanic but someone trying to say that it makes sense from a hypothetical combat/logistical stand point isn't correct, aslo soldiers obviosly don't carry enough ammo for all engagements and when cut off from supply they run out of supplies and are captured/killed by the enemy....

Shep/Team never carry enough ammo for a single mission let alone thinking in terms of galactic warfare and when the Reapers come armies/worlds will be isolated and have limited food/medical supplies let alone armies that now need thermal clips (ammo) for their weappons to work, playing ME 1 i never thought "damn Geth and their weapons high rate of fire compared to my cool down times" lol

Thermal clips = ammo mechanic that wasn't needed and poor lore excuses as to why militaries around the galaxy adopted them.
Balancing classes (different sheilds and reduced abilities) = "WTF?" - a game that isn't multiplayer and in fact should still be an RPG with TPS elements instead of a TPS with some RPG elements

[Icophesis]

Doesn't Shepard still say "shields down" when they drop, regardless whether its a biotic barrier or shield? Besides, its not like the barrier from the first game, thats still a power in its own right. I never paid any attention to it.

[didymos1120]

Icophesis wrote...

Doesn't Shepard still say "shields down" when they drop, regardless whether its a biotic barrier or shield?

Yep.  And armor pieces that boost shields boost biotic barriers, etc.  The lore doesn't acknowledge the distinction at all.  It's only taken into account in combat.

[HTTP 404]

Yesterday was a bad day. Today is a retcon.

I like using retcon in everything I say

Modifié par HTTP 404, 14 août 2011 - 01:55 .

[ODST 5723]

Ace of Dawn wrote...
It's like being able to flip a tank in Halo. Master Chief is nowhere near strong enough to do so, never mind the fact that flipping a tank is implausible to begin with.

In armor, Chief absolutely could flip a Scorpion tank.  Not with the ease shown in-game, but it could still be done with his level of augmentation plus a strength amplifying suit of armor with it's own nuclear reactor.

As for people arguing about clips on the Gernsaback, it's simple.  There were no clips on the Gernsback.  But clips were part of the gameplay mechanic so they appeared in that level.  Any clips used were brought by Shepard and his squad.

What you see in a game due to gameplay convention isn't always the way it actually played out within the universe.

That applies in any sustained franchise, Halo included.  If that were the case, then the Battle Rifle couldn't have been in Halo 2 since it wasn't in Halo 1.  Who cares that the developers said it was older than Chief's armor?  There's too many people who look at the visuals and the gameplay mechanics and can't use common sense and read between the lnes.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 14 août 2011 - 04:19 .