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[SandTrout]

@azerSheppard,

The Quarians nominally realized that the Geth were capable of attaining sentience at the beginning of the morning war. The move to shut down Geth was supposed to preempt any actual achievement of sentience.

[KnightofPhoenix]

SandTrout wrote...
They knew what they were doing and made the choice.

This I am aware of, but I still believe that they as a species, were put in a context where their reaction is completely natural and I do not mind it at all. And I do not believe that they had the time necessary to develop any semblance of ethics.

They still did not colonize the Quarrian world, because IIRC they thought they would be back. That's more than the Quarrians were willing to do for them.

[Someone With Mass]

The funny thing is that there aren't any quarians which were there during the geth's awakening that are still alive today, while the geth remembers every second of it.

Should all the quarians really suffer for something their ancestors did?

It's like saying that all the Germans that lives today should suffer for what the third reich did during the world wars. It's just stupid.

As for the quarians that wants to go to war, they don't know any better alternative. They're not idiots nor "deserve" that fate because of it. It's just a desperate act to reclaim what was once theirs. And they clearly don't know as much about the geth as Shepard and Legion do.

By the way, if the humans were in their position, the whining and moaning would never end, considering how utterly butthurt they were because of the First Contact War. Which wasn't really a war. It was more of a conflict that lasted for a whooping three months.

[Zulu_DFA]

SandTrout wrote...

@azerSheppard,

The Quarians nominally realized that the Geth were capable of attaining sentience at the beginning of the morning war. The move to shut down Geth was supposed to preempt any actual achievement of sentience.

That seems to be the Quarians' side of the story. The official "We're victims!" ideology of the Migrant Fleet.

However, I doubt that questions like "Do these units have a soul?" (that predated the war by a decade, if memory serves) left much room for interpretation about the geth's self-awareness at the time.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 août 2011 - 08:34 .

[SandTrout]

By the way, if the humans were in their position, the whining and moaning would never end, considering how utterly butthurt they were because of the First Contact War. Which wasn't really a war. It was more of a conflict that lasted for a whooping three months.

Who's whining about the FCW?

[didymos1120]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Which wasn't really a war. It was more of a conflict that lasted for a whooping three months.

Duration isn't what determines whether something was "really a war" or not.

[Rockworm503]

Slayer299 wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

Heres the thing about the "their just machines" argument. If my toaster tried to kill me for making toast then I'd think I'm crazy lol. You can't really compare this to real life application. The Geth are machines yes. But machines capable of fighting back if pushed. What if the way to avoid the rise of the machines in Terminator was to talk to them and try to reach an understanding? Maybe the fact their just machines mean they should have no rights. Their actions and what their capable of tells me otherwise.

This isn't helping your argument any. The machines in Terminator went on a killing spree from minute one, when was anyone going to get close enough to them without getting killed to talk. The Quarians feared that would be the case for them once *all* the Geth reached sentience instead of just a few.

How is that not helping my argument?
If anything the fact that the Geth aren't like Skynet just makes my argument stronger.

[Mr_DeMille]

SandTrout wrote...

By the way, if the humans were in their position, the whining and moaning would never end, considering how utterly butthurt they were because of the First Contact War. Which wasn't really a war. It was more of a conflict that lasted for a whooping three months.

Who's whining about the FCW?

Terra Firma

[Saaziel]

Someone With Mass wrote...


Should all the quarians really suffer for something their ancestors did?

No , of course not.

Which is why they ought to negotiate. But the topic isn't who's to blame or who's right; Its either/or. Even if you petty the Quarians, I'd doubt they'd be of any help in defeating the Reapers , nothing close to what the Geth offers.

Given the opportunity to save both , i would.

Modifié par Saaziel, 13 août 2011 - 08:42 .

[Someone With Mass]

didymos1120 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Which wasn't really a war. It was more of a conflict that lasted for a whooping three months.

Duration isn't what determines whether something was "really a war" or not.

Still. It's pathetic how so many human characters are still so sore in the ass about it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mr_DeMille wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

By the way, if the humans were in their position, the whining and moaning would never end, considering how utterly butthurt they were because of the First Contact War. Which wasn't really a war. It was more of a conflict that lasted for a whooping three months.

Who's whining about the FCW?

Terra Firma

They are not whining, they are advocating prudence, which is rational considering how gun happy the Turians are.

[SandTrout]

Rockworm503 wrote...

How is that not helping my argument?
If anything the fact that the Geth aren't like Skynet just makes my argument stronger.

We only know this after the fact, and the Quarian felt compelled to assume a worst-case scenario, which is understandable, and apparrently at least somewhat justified.

[SandTrout]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Still. It's pathetic how so many human characters are still so sore in the ass about it.

Such characters including...?

[Someone With Mass]

SandTrout wrote...
Who's whining about the FCW?

At the top of my head? Ashley, Priestley and Terra Firma.

[Rockworm503]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...
Apparently not since Legion tells Quib the Geth are open to peace, yet he doesn't find that important enough to mention to the other admirals. If he did, that means they simply didn't listen.


"Go to war with the Geth!"
"Go to war with the Geth!"
"Enslave the Geth!"
"Find a peaceful solution."
"I'm not sure."

Peace doesn't seem likely.

If the admiralty board is not agreeing with each other, then a war won't happen.

And really, is it that hard to just try and convince them that peace is the right solution?

Just like Shepard have done throughout the whole trilogy? Convincing people?

And if you don't care, then simply just don't bother with it if your time is so precious and go do something else, because I'm so sick of seeing comments like "Duuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, I'mma think dem *insert faction here* dun goofed, and I can't possibly help them do the right thing, so I'mma let dem die" all the time.

Of course I'll do everything I can to convince them for peace but look at what they say.
2 of them see them as nothing but machines who need to be destroyed or enslaved
1 is on the fence
and 1 is 100% in it for peace.
The 1 on the fence is on the fence just to avoid putting herself on the line.  She won't hesitate to join the other 2 if they decide its time to fight the geth again.  Thats 3 against one.  I don't know the exact way Quarian politics go but the majority is already winning whose to stop them from going to war on a 3 against 1 majority vote?

Modifié par Rockworm503, 13 août 2011 - 08:44 .

[General User]

The First Contact War, and humanity's reaction to it has been… interesting. In a lot of ways it was the quintessential nightmare about aliens, that the human race had been imagining since Jules Verne, come to life.

From that perspective, I think it a tribute to humanity that the Alliance as a whole didn't turn pariah ala the batarians or isolationist ala the geth.

[didymos1120]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
 However, I doubt that questions like "Do these units have a soul?" (that predated the war by a decade, if memory serves)

It doesn't serve.  All Legion says is that "Our oldest log is time-stamped from creator year 2463, third day of Fal'tash, Waxing Moon. Roughly 327 years ago". What's said is that they have no audio-visual recordings from that time:  "The oldest audio-visual record dates from 15 years after that." Legion doesn't claim that the geth had "woken up" when either of them were made.  Then there's the "Do these units have a soul?" recording, which was from even later (22 quarian years, whatever that works out to):  "Recording time-stamped from creator year 2485, 18th day of Lun'shal, New Moon." All we can say there is that it wasn't the first time a geth unit asked that sort of question, but we have no date for when the first time actually was. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 13 août 2011 - 09:00 .

[Rockworm503]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Fascinating - one robot comes and tells you: "No, we're good now." and suddenly everyone is ready to make a species go extinct.

I hope Legion turns out to be programmed based on the human bull-**** principle. That is - humans will believe any bull-**** you feed them if you put a metal plate on your shoulder that says: "I like you - see?"

LOL putting words in other peoples mouths must be a popular past time.
If legion was really what you said he is then going to the Geth platform on his mission would've been a trap.

[didymos1120]

Someone With Mass wrote...

SandTrout wrote...
Who's whining about the FCW?

At the top of my head? Ashley, Priestley and Terra Firma.

Ashley was mostly pissed (and justifiably so) about what happened to her grandfather and her father, which was something the Alliance did.  And Pressly only "whines" about it if you ask him to elaborate at the very beginning of ME1.  He also shuts up about it if you tell him to, and never brings it up again regardless.

[SandTrout]

Someone With Mass wrote...

SandTrout wrote...
Who's whining about the FCW?

At the top of my head? Ashley, Priestley and Terra Firma.

Ashley has been unofficially blacklisted b/c of her grandfather's actions on Shanxi. I think she has a right to be a little bitter about it.

Pressly is not 'butt hurt' over the FCW, he cites it as a reason for his suspicion of aliens, which is right and proper for a naval officer. The Turians made a bloody first impression on Humanity, so it is reasonable to view them with some suspicion.

Terra Firma officially cites a similar position as Pressly, which again, I consider quite reasonable.

If you want historical precedent, then I will cite British and French animosity, China and Tiawan, Russia and Poland, and Israel and everyone bordering them.

I see no reason for us to simply ignore the fact that the Turian's first response to making first contact with our species was to conquer it.

[Gust4v]

That'd be one of the easiest choices in the game.
Quarians, of course. The Geth are just software and a possible threat in the future.

[AnAccountWithNoName]

Swimming Ferret wrote...

I would side with the Geth. The Quarians deserved to get their asses kicked for their stupidity and moronic response when they discovered the sapience of the Geth, the Geth were simply defended themselves. Also, the Quarians have ancient ships that are packed so they aren't the best allies. Geth on the other hand...

You are SOOOOO right.  We should PUNISH the present day Quarians in Mass Effect, it doesn't matter that they arn't the Guarians who tried to destroy the geth.  It seems perfectly logical to keep punishing the son for the sins of a dead father.

And of course the Geth were reacting in self defense.  After all defending yourself = wiping out almost an an entire species (less then 1% of the Quarians survived).  But they were perfectly JUSTIFIED for that.
/sarcasm

[didymos1120]

Gust4v wrote...

That'd be one of the easiest choices in the game.
Quarians, of course. The Geth are just software and a possible threat in the future.

Possible threat?  Dude, so are the quarians.  Everyone is a possible threat.  Or haven't you noticed that every single species has a history of warfare.  Hell, your fellow humans are a possible threat.  It ain't like civil wars are a rare occurence in history.

[KotorEffect3]

Someone With Mass wrote...

SandTrout wrote...
Who's whining about the FCW?

At the top of my head? Ashley, Priestley and Terra Firma.

Ashley is somewhat understandable because of her family connection to it, and Pressly brought it up but stayed professional about it.  The Terra Firma party however were idiotic about it.  Why hold a protest on the citadel if they want to push an isolationist policy?  To me it just looks like they were looking for trouble.

I'd also like to think the time Ashley spent working with Garrus during ME 1 somewhat changed her perspective on Turians.  We know that Pressly had a change of attitude when we read the datapad in the Normandy crash pack dlc.

But I do agree with your initial sentiment that humans would whine just as bad if not worse than the quarians if we were in their shoes.

Modifié par KotorEffect3, 13 août 2011 - 09:04 .

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
 (that predated the war by a decade, if memory serves)

It doesn't serve.  All Legion says is that "Our oldest log is time-stamped from creator year 2463, third day of Fal'tash, Waxing Moon. Roughly 327 years ago". What's said is that they have no audio-visual recordings from that time:  "The oldest audio-visual record dates from 15 years after that." Legion doesn't claim that the geth had "woken up" when either of them were made.  Then there's the "Do these units have a soul?" recording, which was from even later (22 quarian years, whatever that works out to):  "Recording time-stamped from creator year 2485, 18th day of Lun'shal, New Moon." All we can say there is that it wasn't the first time a geth unit asked that sort of question, but we have no date for when the first time actually was.

Yeah, I was referring specifically to the "soul" recording, and as you have pointed out, it was made ~ 305 years ago. And Haestrom was lost to the Geth ~ 290 yeas ago (if memory serves). And yes, I'm aware that the "quarian years" may (or may not) be different.

In any case, the "soul" question clearly indicates that contrary to what Tali said in ME1, the Geth had become self-aware prior the war, and the Quarians had all the reason to be sure of that, when they decided to pull the plug.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 août 2011 - 09:04 .