758 réponses à ce sujet

[xXljoshlXx]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That's ridiculous, Josh/Agamo. I suppose you think the United States needs to start hijacking passenger planes and flying them into mosques?

I never said need but you cannot be upset for the  other  using a tactic you introduced. Also the bombs set off in Japan killed many innocents but it can be justified.

[Ianamus]

Agamo45 wrote...

You talk about boundaries, but the quarians eliminated all boundaries when they decided to exterminate the geth.

So when Hitler decided to exterminate the Jews he elimintaed all boundaries for the entire German populace? The allies should have just killed every single German, even babies and children? No, they shouldn't have. And they didn't. Because it's wrong. 

Agamo45 wrote...

It's cold, hard logic which is what machines use..

So basically the Geth are sociopaths? Your not really helping their case. 

Modifié par EJ107, 14 août 2011 - 12:35 .

[xXljoshlXx]

Someone With Mass wrote...

xXljoshlXx wrote...
Medgel. If the qaurians actually tried to help the Geth they might have had a chance.

Yeah. They would've also violated strict laws about AI development even further at the time.

Medgel is breaking the law funny it's not banned. The Qaurians could have tried to fight the for Geth but instead they struck out in fear and now must pay the price

Edit:Fight for the Geth is what i meant to say Sorry

Modifié par xXljoshlXx, 14 août 2011 - 12:45 .

[AnAccountWithNoName]

Agamo45 wrote...

AnAccountWithNoName wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

The geth are machines, they probably calculated that the most efficient way to defeat the quarians was to kill every last one of them, since that's what the quarians were trying to do to them. The Allies during the Second World War killed millions of German and Japanese civilians with bombing, completely breaking their will to fight and forcing them to surrender. That worked for the geth, the quarians lost so much that they were eventually forced to abandon their own civilization, securing survival for the geth. That's war, no morality just survival.

What does it say about the Geth if they're willing to do things like that? At least the allies in real life tried to avoid killing civilians. 

People try to use "they're machines" to justify what the Geth have done, but all that proves is that they are dangerous, don't value life, and would readily slaughter the entire galaxy without hesitation if they thought it was logical. That makes them no better than the Reapers. 

AnAccountWithNoName wrote...

Just replace the word "French" with Quarian, and "Spanish" with Geth. and you have the belief of those who think the Quarians got what they deserved.  It's a pretty stupid belief.

Exactly. Putting it in real life terms really shows what a stupid belief it is. 

The geth were fighting for their very survival, you can't expect them to hold anything back. Again, this is war. You can't attach morality to it because there is no morality.

I beg to differ.  Morality does play a part in war.  For example, if a faction captures a town of an opposing faction, the winning faction of this battle should NOT go into the town and rape the women there.  Why?  Because its wrong.  Even in war, there are certain lines you don't cross.

Here is an example:  Say the nation of france is at war with the Spanish.  The whole war was caused because Spain attacked them.  Now the french troops enter spain, and not only do they wipe out the spanish military but destroy its government as well.  Now according to you, morality has no place in war, therefore it should be perfectly ok for the french to after defeating what invaded their country, to also slaughter the non-combatents, including spanish children.

What the geth did can be compared to the example above, and what they did can not be justified.  I know you have to do certain things in war that you normally wouldn't do, but there are still certain things you just don't do because it is wrong.

The geth sure slaughtered the Quarian Military, and i don't have a problem with that because it was the military attacking them, however they attacked those who were no actual threat to them (can babies fight back?).  That is why they are worse then the Quarians.  They kill those who can't even fight back.

In total warfare, civilians become military targets. The quarian military was being supported by the civilian population who no doubt manned the infrastructure and produced their weapons. You eliminate them, and you break the war effort. It's cold, hard logic which is what machines use. You talk about boundaries, but the quarians eliminated all boundaries when they decided to exterminate the geth.

Generalizing much?  Not all the quarians wanted to eliminate the geth.  You stated "The quarian military was being supported by the civilian population who
no doubt manned the infrastructure and produced their weapons".  You are correct there good friend.  Many times in war, civilians are killed to try to stop supplies from being used for the military.  You misunderstand what im trying to say.  Im not saying the Geth were wrong to kill civilians, im saying the Geth were wrong to kill civilians when the Quarian military was either destroyed/ruined, and posed no actual threat.  We know the Quarian military does not make up half of the billions and billions of Quarians altogether.  We also know the Geth kept killing Quarians even after they reached the 50% mark.  So we know there came a time in the war in which civilians were still being butchered by the Geth even though the Quarian military was destroyed.

[Agamo45]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That's ridiculous, Josh/Agamo. I suppose you think the United States needs to start hijacking passenger planes and flying them into mosques?

No, we're more sophisticated then that. We bomb the bastards where they live.

[xXljoshlXx]

Saphra Deden wrote...
There are no geth innocents, no geth noncombatants.

The Geth sound innocent to me 
free from moral wrong; without sin; pure

Saphra Deden wrote...
All the quarians tried to do was fix a malunctioning machine by powering it down so they could make corrections. In response they were slaughtered.

All the Geth tried to do was self preserve against a species who wanted them dead out of fear and well succeeded. The Qaurians failed at trying to murder a whole race sentient beings. We can both use Conntations to make our point sound better and the other worst.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Try and think with your brain here and stop comparing a bunch of computer alogrythms to sentient beings.

If bioware says the Geth are Sentient i have to belive them it is their universe or did i miss something?

[Someone With Mass]

xXljoshlXx wrote...
Medgel is breaking the law funny it's not banned. The Qaurians could have tried to fight the Geth but instead they struck out in fear and now must pay the price

Okay. Creating medi-gel and creating an artificial intelligence on a large scale are two completely different things.

I really hope you can understand that.

Struck in fear? Yeah, because they didn't want any trouble for it/tried to avert a crisis by reverting the geth to their former state before they became completely sentient. And I really doubt it would've been all peachy with rainbows and bunnies if they hadn't done anything.

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

]No, but he's been away from the Geth for 2 years,

That's irrelevant and also untrue. He can communicate with the geth at any time. He does so on the Normandy if you let him.

Secondly, any hostilities against the geth in the last two years are fully justified. They are the result of the geth leaving the Veil and making war on organics. Nothing shocking about other species attacking them to learn more about them as the quarians do at Haestrom (or, theoretically, prior to Haestrom).

That's not what you said. You said that the Quarians never attacked the Geth after the Morning war. As far as I know that is purely speculation on your part, unless you're citing a source, which I would happily review.

[AnAccountWithNoName]

xXljoshlXx wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

That's ridiculous, Josh/Agamo. I suppose you think the United States needs to start hijacking passenger planes and flying them into mosques?

I never said need but you cannot be upset for the  other  using a tactic you introduced. Also the bombs set off in Japan killed many innocents but it can be justified.

Um what happened with Japan is EXTREMELY DIFFERENT then what happened with the Quarians.

But i feel that i need to educate those who don't have there facts strait.

Yes the bombs were dropped, and many civilians died.  But the USA did not have the mentality of "Lets wipe out all the Japanese, including civilians to make sure there are never a threat".  America bombed them to try and save Allied lives that would have been lost if they invaded japan.  However the goal of the bombs was not to genocide the japanese people.  If the USA were like the Geth, they would not only nuke 2 cities, but nuke the entire island, to make sure they would never be a threat, which is genoicde.

If the Geth took the USA role in WW2.  So Quarians (in the place of Japan) attack the Geth first, the Geth responds, a big war is fought, 2 nukes are later used on the Quarians, the aftermath, the Quarians are in shambles, there military is extremely weak, but the cold machines don't care.  They think that perhaps the Japanese will always pose a threat for as long as they exist.  So they build more nukes and nuke the entire island until almost nothing is left of the Quarian people.

Modifié par AnAccountWithNoName, 14 août 2011 - 12:46 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

OK, you're right. It's impossible to tell with absolute certainty who knew what and who could what centuries ago, judging by a few lines of dialogue in the game. (But that goes to those who say "Oh, the Quarians didn't realize the Geth were already!" too.) And anyway I'd be the last to argue that the Quarians should not have even considered pulling the plug, if we did know for sure the Quarians realized that the Geth had achieved sentience. The fact remains, however, that they either failed to anticipate the geth's capabilities and retaliatory behavior, or refused to accept the situation. Which makes them victims of their own damn fault and not of their machinery. I guess, the Quarians didn't read history books either, as it appears the idea that orderly emancipation usually prevents bloodshed is totally alien to them.

Tell me, Zulu, what should the quarian leadership have done? What is the most sensible course of action they could have taken to protect their own people?

Put yourself in their place. Pretend you're a quarian high up in the government at this time.

What do you do to keep your people safe without provoking a war with the geth or allowing the geth to strike first and overwhelm you?

First of all, I can't see why wouldn't the Geth be willing put up with their situation of "helpers" to the "creators". Why a rebellion was considered inevitable is beyond me. Were there undertaken any studies of the issue prior to the war? If there were, what was the conclusion of those studies? We'll never know.

Then, even if a rebellion was deemed "inevitable", I'd consider emancipating the Geth once their sentience was confirmed. That would remove the stated cause of the rebellion - the supposed injustice of treating the geth as slaves - and the rebellion's inevitability as well. Then, if all that failed, and the Geth still kicked my butt royally in a war, evicting a few and slaughtering the rest of my Quarians, I would immediately  begin searching for a new planet to resettle, instead of persisting in hostilities with the Geth and wishfully thinking about reclaiming the "homeworld" by force.

However, for any of those steps to become possible, I'd need to stop being a self-righteous idiot. Which would probably be a requirement for the step 1 to succeed anyway, as the Geth indeed would likely involve themselves in the Quarian idiocy. So, in a way, this Quarians' persistent idiocy does confirm that they were accidentally right, and the Geth would not put up with them in charge. Such paradox. Or maybe simply a loser's destiny.

But the Quarians prefer to pursuade themselves that they didn't realize that the Geth had already become self-aware. Even though from the perspective of their motivation - to save themselves from an inevitable rebellion - it was absolutely irrelevant. And in any case, one's "pr-eemptive strike" is someone else's "unprovoked aggression". And vise versa, of course. But when the pre-emptive strike fails, it goes down in history not only as an unprovoked aggression, but also as an evidence of the aggressor's ineptitude.

/rant.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 août 2011 - 12:51 .

[SandTrout]

Someone With Mass wrote...

xXljoshlXx wrote...
Medgel is breaking the law funny it's not banned. The Qaurians could have tried to fight the Geth but instead they struck out in fear and now must pay the price

Okay. Creating medi-gel and creating an artificial intelligence on a large scale are two completely different things.

I really hope you can understand that.

Struck in fear? Yeah, because they didn't want any trouble for it/tried to avert a crisis by reverting the geth to their former state before they became completely sentient. And I really doubt it would've been all peachy with rainbows and bunnies if they hadn't done anything.

Indeed, the Quarians had a lot to fear from a sentient Geth, including expulsion from the Citadel and a Terminator scenario.

[Someone With Mass]

xXljoshlXx wrote...
The Geth sound innocent to me 
free from moral wrong; without sin; pure

When you've killed billions, you're very far from pure and without sin.

Please. Come up with something good.

[Ianamus]

xXljoshlXx wrote...

The Geth sound innocent to me 
free from moral wrong; without sin; pure

People who have no moral issues with killing others are called sociopaths. And they're anything but pure. 

I agree completely with Saphra, you people are sick.

[Chun Hei]

Geth or Quarians? I say let Mordin decide since he has a head for these situations. If your Mordin is dead I guess you are screwed.

[xXljoshlXx]

Someone With Mass wrote...

xXljoshlXx wrote...
Medgel is breaking the law funny it's not banned. The Qaurians could have tried to fight the Geth but instead they struck out in fear and now must pay the price

Okay. Creating medi-gel and creating an artificial intelligence on a large scale are two completely different things.

I really hope you can understand that.

Struck in fear? Yeah, because they didn't want any trouble for it/tried to avert a crisis by reverting the geth to their former state before they became completely sentient. And I really doubt it would've been all peachy with rainbows and bunnies if they hadn't done anything.

I knew someone would be my spellchecker for me.
They are both illegal but one of them isn't banned. The Qaurians could have fought(I don't mean violence fight)  for Geth rights earning their trust. They might have succeded making all AI legal but they didn't so we will just have to forget about it. The Qaurians broke the law either way so they were gonna get screwed either way but if they fought against the law instead of agreeing with it. 

[xXljoshlXx]

AnAccountWithNoName wrote...

Um what happened with Japan is EXTREMELY DIFFERENT then what happened with the Quarians.

EXACTLY ANY ANALOGY WILL BE EXETREMELY DIFFERENT SO STOP USING THEM. That was my whole point of using it hopefully you caught on.

[Agamo45]

@EJ The Allies started killing the Germans and Japanese and kept killing them until the survivors surrendered, which is what the geth did.

[xXljoshlXx]

EJ107 wrote...

xXljoshlXx wrote...

The Geth sound innocent to me 
free from moral wrong; without sin; pure

People who have no moral issues with killing others are called sociopaths. And they're anything but pure. 

I agree completely with Saphra, you people are sick.

1.Not all sociopaths are murderers
2. Read the definition 
3. Before the War the Geth are innocent 
4.The qaurians attacked
5.They lose innocence when they fought back

[legion999]

EJ107 wrote...

xXljoshlXx wrote...

The Geth sound innocent to me 
free from moral wrong; without sin; pure

People who have no moral issues with killing others are called sociopaths. And they're anything but pure. 

I agree completely with Saphra, you people are sick.

What do you mean by you people? Do you mean those who support the Geth or those who don't mind the death's of billions?

[Ianamus]

Agamo45 wrote...

@EJ The Allies started killing the Germans and Japanese and kept killing them until the survivors surrendered, which is what the geth did.

What are you on about? The Geth kept killing the Quarians unti they were all dead, not until they surrendered. The only reason 1% survived is because they outran them; if they hadn't then they would have been killed as well. 

[Someone With Mass]

xXljoshlXx wrote...
I knew someone would be my spellchecker for me.
They are both illegal but one of them isn't banned. The Qaurians could have fought(I don't mean violence fight)  for Geth rights earning their trust. They might have succeded making all AI legal but they didn't so we will just have to forget about it. The Qaurians broke the law either way so they were gonna get screwed either way but if they fought against the law instead of agreeing with it.

Which they didn't. Because that would have been a lost cause before it even started.

And AI research didn't become legal until a long time after that event.

Also, they would've lost their place on the Council embassy if they had developed the geth even further, which would've been a pretty devastating blow to their economy and relations with other races.

[Ianamus]

legion999 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

xXljoshlXx wrote...

The Geth sound innocent to me 
free from moral wrong; without sin; pure

People who have no moral issues with killing others are called sociopaths. And they're anything but pure. 

I agree completely with Saphra, you people are sick.

What do you mean by you people? Do you mean those who support the Geth or those who don't mind the death's of billions?

The ones who say that war justifies killing children.