758 réponses à ce sujet

[Rockworm503]

AHHH this thread is going to fast for me.
2 things I would like to say.
1. Stop using real life situations for analogies.
2. Stop using personal attacks to make your argument look good "you people are sick" isn't helping either side.
I'm enjoying this debate lets keep it civil please.

[xXljoshlXx]

CMDR Locke wrote...

According the the Morning Wars entry on the Wiki, is can be assumed the Quarians had a very small if any military force that wasn't Geth when they decided to terminate.

So basically the Geth killed civilians is what I'm saying. They didn't take them prisoner, they didn't kill just enough and explain themselves. They murdered everyone.

I understand but i didn't see anything that said some small military you might have but I didn't. That's fine with me Both species were wrong in the war but IMO I believe the Qaurians more wrong.

Runescapeguy9 wrote...

xXljoshlXx wrote...

The morning War shows the geth can be a very helpful ally 

No, the morning war shows the geth jump to conclusions and have no sort of restraint.

There is still 1% left so they didn't go fully in or they would not exist or war  wouldn't be over. That shows restraint
The Geth  also do not pursue the Qaurians. That also shows restraint. If anyone jumped to conclusions it would be the Qaurians they assumed the Geth would attack and destroy funny  thing is Qaurians attacked first and the Geth did not destroy them or even enslave them.

[Ryzaki]

Runescapeguy9 wrote...

xXljoshlXx wrote...

The morning War shows the geth can be a very helpful ally 

No, the morning war shows the geth jump to conclusions and have no sort of restraint.

Because the Quarians obviously were going to make them cupcakes and tea if they hadn't chased them out right?  

Both sides were fighting for their species existance. The Quarians were going to exterminate the Geth. The Geth retailated by attempting to exterminate the Quarians. 

Neither sidewas lilywhite in said situation and trying to paint them as such is a disservice. I do however feel more sympathy for the Geth because their slaughter started in self defense. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 août 2011 - 01:55 .

[Someone With Mass]

Some people are so blindly trying to say that the geth were right to slaughter billions and how the geth were so innocent it gave them full right to do so, that they aren't receptive to logic anymore.

I find that quite funny. And incredibly stupid at the same time.

[xXljoshlXx]

[quote]Warlocomotf wrote...
You're right, AI is predictable because it follows logic.
Unfortunately if AI defends itself and fights back (And even intend to wipe the other species out),
that is evidence of the fact that this AI finds it's own existence of higher value than that of others.[/quote]
What species doesn't fight back?
What species did the Geth wipe out I don't recall any.

[quote]Warlocomotf wrote...
that is evidence of the fact that this AI finds it's own existence of higher value than that of others.[/quote]
[/quote]
No it isn't this might have weight if the Geth attacked but it was more self-defense which has nothing to do with higher value

[quote]Warlocomotf wrote...
In addition, legion himself says it clearly, it is "in organics' programming" to fear AI. Even if you argue that this is not true; it is still true that the Geth believe it to be true.
Seeing as the geth strictly follow logic, it is ultimately clear that the Geth will attempt to kill all organics when the opportunity arises. Why? Because organics fear AI, conflict is inevitable. Logic dictates you strike at the most opportune time.
[/quote]
Your Logic says that theirs might not. 2+2=4, 2+1=3

[quote]Warlocomotf wrote...
Currently, the Geth is siding with organics. Perhaps this is because they require organics- they can not deal with the reaper threat alone, this explanation certainly follows logic.
[/quote]
All the species would side with one another against the reapers.

Logic also does not care much for morals, it does not care if what they say is true or false. They can very easily say they have no intent of fighting organics without it being true. It would certainly be beneficial to say this, especially if it is not true.[quote]You understand that the Geth aren't any more Dangerous than the other species and the geth can easily be reasoned they do use logic which is more than you can say for other species.[/quote]That makes the Geth more dangerous if anything. Logic is cold; very cold. Logic does not care about ethics or morals- logic is why the Geth do not hesitate to kill children.[/quote]
The batarians believe it is right for them to have slaves from other species but the Geth believe other species should self determinate.

[quote]Someone With Mass wrote...

Some people are so blindly trying to say that the geth were right to slaughter billions and how the geth were so innocent it gave them full right to do so, that they aren't receptive to logic anymore.

I find that quite funny. And incredibly stupid at the same time.[/quote]

If you are implying me i have started saying i believe both races are guilty just the qaurians are more in my eyes the only time I said geth were innocent is before the War is true they hadn't done anything wrong.

Modifié par xXljoshlXx, 14 août 2011 - 02:04 .

[Slayer299]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

Heres the thing about the "their just machines" argument. If my toaster tried to kill me for making toast then I'd think I'm crazy lol. You can't really compare this to real life application. The Geth are machines yes. But machines capable of fighting back if pushed. What if the way to avoid the rise of the machines in Terminator was to talk to them and try to reach an understanding? Maybe the fact their just machines mean they should have no rights. Their actions and what their capable of tells me otherwise.

This isn't helping your argument any. The machines in Terminator went on a killing spree from minute one, when was anyone going to get close enough to them without getting killed to talk. The Quarians feared that would be the case for them once *all* the Geth reached sentience instead of just a few.

How is that not helping my argument?
If anything the fact that the Geth aren't like Skynet just makes my argument stronger.

It didn't seem to because it seemed you were comparing the Geth and Skynet as being similar and since we all know of Skynet's homicidal tendencies towards humans.

[Ianamus]

I just thought of something that not many people have touched on here. 

Remember that Asari on Illium whose (Presumably Asari) partner died on the Quarian homeworld during the Geth uprising? I doubt that she was the only one. 

Just exactly how many non-Quarians were killed by the Geth in the morning war?

Modifié par EJ107, 14 août 2011 - 02:06 .

[Slayer299]

That's a very good point and one I'm pretty certain that has been very overlooked.

Considering that the attempt to deactivate the Geth wasn't going to be announced and along with the Geth's violent response in return I'd think that more than a few non-Quarians got caught in the middle with the rest scrambling to get out of Dodge. Once the consensus was to strike back I don't think there would have been any discrimination between Quarian and non-Quarians.

[xXljoshlXx]

EJ107 wrote...

I just thought of something that not many people have touched on here. 

Remember that Asari on Illium whose (Presumably Asari) partner died on the Quarian homeworld during the Geth uprising? I doubt that she was the only one. 

Just exactly how many non-Quarians were killed by the Geth in the morning war?

That can be easily conisdered collarteral damage it never said who did it so it could be either sides fault. So once again this falls on both of the races not just the Geth and heck you can throw the Council in the blame. Instead of helping the Qaurians they only punished them after the war instead of helping defeat the Geth before it became a big threat.

[Ryzaki]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Some people are so blindly trying to say that the geth were right to slaughter billions and how the geth were so innocent it gave them full right to do so, that they aren't receptive to logic anymore.

I find that quite funny. And incredibly stupid at the same time.

It was war. A war that the Quarians started. 

Now the Geth certainly weren't innocent. 

But neither were the Quarians. 

You reap what you sow. They tried to exterminate the Geth, the Geth fed them their own medicine. I'm sorry but I'm not crying a river over the Quarian slaughter. War is horrible and it gets more horrible the higher the price for loss becomes and extermination of your entire species for loss is a extremely high price. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 août 2011 - 02:19 .

[Warlocomotf]

xXljoshlXx wrote...

What species doesn't fight back?
What species did the Geth wipe out I don't recall any.

No it isn't this might have weight if the Geth attacked but it was more self-defense which has nothing to do with higher value

1. A species that follows logic and does not value itself beyond others. Because when you follow pure logic,  action requires reason. Defending yourself means you value yourself, defending yourself with lethal force means you value yourself beyond your attacker. That is logic.
2. I used the word "Intent", the Geth intended to whipe out the Quarians.
3. See 1.

Your Logic says that theirs might not. 2+2=4, 2+1=3

That's not how logic works. Give logic an equation and it will provide the same answer every time. This is also a large flaw in Legion's explanation of the difference between the Geth and the Heretics- one equaltion will not have different answers unless there is actually an error in the programming. Logic is not opinion, when logic does not know something for sure, logic calculates mathmatical probability.

All the species would side with one another against the reapers.

However the Geth are the only significant species that has killed everyone who has approached them, and the only "species" without morals or ethics. It's the only "species" that would not feel bad about commiting genocide if it were beneficial.

The batarians believe it is right for them to have slaves from other species but the Geth believe other species should self determinate.

There is very little rational reason to believe Legion, and the Batarians are denied many "priveledges".

[Clonedzero]

CMDR Locke wrote...

According the the Morning Wars entry on the Wiki, is can be assumed the Quarians had a very small if any military force that wasn't Geth when they decided to terminate.

So basically the Geth killed civilians is what I'm saying. They didn't take them prisoner, they didn't kill just enough and explain themselves. They murdered everyone.

well you cant really expect them to act like a normal society or civilization at that point. they had litterally just attained self-awareness.

at that point, you could think of them as children. it would be all simple concepts for them at that point. fight or flight response. the quarians tried to kill them, their natural reaction was to kill them back.

the modern geth have matured and started to realize that thing arent as simple as that.

[Runescapeguy9]

xXljoshlXx wrote...
There is still 1% left

If you believe that to be proof of restraint you need to market whatever you are using. You don't murder an entire species, regardless of what a group has done to you. Do you need this put into perspective? The average family in North America has between 2 and 3 children. The number is about 2.3 IIRC, you can google it if you want. With about half of the race married, this means that out of the billions that the geth killed, at minimum HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of them were defenseless children that posed them no threat. That is not restraint, that is outright barbarism. There is no logic in destroying a third party not involved in your conflict.

Modifié par Runescapeguy9, 14 août 2011 - 02:17 .

[Clonedzero]

why would legion lie?

[Agamo45]

Ryzaki wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Some people are so blindly trying to say that the geth were right to slaughter billions and how the geth were so innocent it gave them full right to do so, that they aren't receptive to logic anymore.

I find that quite funny. And incredibly stupid at the same time.

It was war. A war that the Quarians started. 

Now the Geth certainly weren't innocent. 

But neither were the Quarians. 

You reap what you sow. They tried to exterminate the Geth, the Geth fed them their own medicine. I'm sorry but I'm not crying a river over the Quarian slaughter. War is horrible and it gets more horrible the higher the price for loss becomes and extermination of your entire species for loss is a extremely high price. 

This is pretty much what it comes down to.

[CMDR Locke]

Ryzaki wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Some people are so blindly trying to say that the geth were right to slaughter billions and how the geth were so innocent it gave them full right to do so, that they aren't receptive to logic anymore.

I find that quite funny. And incredibly stupid at the same time.

It was war. A war that the Quarians started. 

Now the Geth certainly weren't innocent. 

But neither were the Quarians. 

You reap what you sow. They tried to exterminate the Geth, the Geth fed them their own medicine. I'm sorry but I'm not crying a river over the Quarian slaughter. 

The Quarians didn't start a war.  War is a word that has no bearing without politics, and nationalities.  The Quarians went home per their Governments orders and attempted to turn off their Labor Robots.  I would assume many of these got terminated. 

What started the genocide of the Quarian people was when the Government attempted to terminate the programs of the military platforms.  A consensus was taken, and all Geth began systmatically murdering all organic life on the planet.

[CMDR Locke]

Clonedzero wrote...

why would legion lie?

The Geth use lies on Organis all the time.

Taken from Geth wiki here http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

However, the geth are not above using deceit to study organic behavior. One example is the geth introducing a falsified report on the extranet detailing a constellation resembling a salarian goddess seen from the batarianhomeworld, which the salarians immediately believed to be proof of the goddess' existence. The experiment ended when a salarian cult bought rights to the stars, only to find that they did not exist.

[Warlocomotf]

Clonedzero wrote...

why would legion lie?

Because it helps him.

Why would a species that has no morals or ethics care whether something is true or false? Unless there is a benefit to speaking the truth, there's no reason not to lie- especially when lying could be beneficial.

[CMDR Locke]

I still 100% believe anyone taking the Geth side only does so because "lol Legion was cool." No sane human would ever choice a computer program/robot over a living breathing person.

[Someone With Mass]

Ryzaki wrote...

It was war. A war that the Quarians started. 

Now the Geth certainly weren't innocent. 

But neither were the Quarians. 

You reap what you sow. They tried to exterminate the Geth, the Geth fed them their own medicine. I'm sorry but I'm not crying a river over the Quarian slaughter. War is horrible and it gets more horrible the higher the price for loss becomes and extermination of your entire species for loss is a extremely high price. 

Oh, so just because some military/politicians made a mistake, every single man, woman and child of the same race deserves to die? Just because their leaders tried to prevent their tools from becoming sentient? Especially when the tools in question weren't really sentient?

That's nice to know. You know, I'm glad people with viewpoints like that can't have any real power in this world, because that would lead to full scale anarchy within the same day. It's that stupid.

[Ianamus]

xXljoshlXx wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

I just thought of something that not many people have touched on here. 

Remember that Asari on Illium whose (Presumably Asari) partner died on the Quarian homeworld during the Geth uprising? I doubt that she was the only one. 

Just exactly how many non-Quarians were killed by the Geth in the morning war?

That can be easily conisdered collarteral damage it never said who did it so it could be either sides fault. So once again this falls on both of the races not just the Geth and heck you can throw the Council in the blame. Instead of helping the Qaurians they only punished them after the war instead of helping defeat the Geth before it became a big threat.

Oh please. Who do you think shot them? The Qurian's who'd lived alongside them for years or the rogue machines?

Slayer299 wrote...

That's a very good point and one I'm pretty certain that has been very overlooked.

Considering that the attempt to deactivate the Geth wasn't going to be announced and along with the Geth's violent response in return I'd think that more than a few non-Quarians got caught in the middle with the rest scrambling to get out of Dodge. Once the consensus was to strike back I don't think there would have been any discrimination between Quarian and non-Quarians.

Yes, I hadn't realised until I thought about it just how overlooked it's been.

The Quarian homeworld must have had a ton of other races there. Tourists, traders, aliens who decided to live there, we could be talking millions of people who weren't even Quarian being killed by the Geth! Maybe more!

[Clonedzero]

CMDR Locke wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

why would legion lie?

The Geth use lies on Organis all the time.

Taken from Geth wiki here http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

However, the geth are not above using deceit to study organic behavior. One example is the geth introducing a falsified report on the extranet detailing a constellation resembling a salarian goddess seen from the batarianhomeworld, which the salarians immediately believed to be proof of the goddess' existence. The experiment ended when a salarian cult bought rights to the stars, only to find that they did not exist.

yes. but i mean why would he lie to shepard? they have a common enemy.
he's not studying shepard, he's trying to get his help, big difference.

[xXljoshlXx]

Warlocomotf wrote...

1. A species that follows logic and does not value itself beyond others. Because when you follow pure logic,  action requires reason. Defending yourself means you value yourself, defending yourself with lethal force means you value yourself beyond your attacker. That is logic.
2. I used the word "Intent", the Geth intended to whipe out the Quarians.
3. See 1.

The Qaurians had the intent to wipe out all Geth completely. Except they i don't value myself more if it is self defense but i see each other as eqauls for a opprtunity to fight back. The Qaurians are the ones who valued themselves more in the situation

Warlocomotf wrote...
That's not how logic works. Give logic an equation and it will provide the same answer every time. This is also a large flaw in Legion's explanation of the difference between the Geth and the Heretics- one equaltion will not have different answers unless there is actually an error in the programming. Logic is not opinion, when logic does not know something for sure, logic calculates mathmatical probability.

A person is annoying me

Logic- i kill this man he will never annoy me again but in the process i might die or suffer an injury

Logic- i walk the other way. I may possibly see him again but it is unlikely

Logic- I try to talk it out with him

Warlocomotf wrote...
However the Geth are the only significant species that has killed everyone who has approached them, and the only "species" without morals or ethics. It's the only "species" that would not feel bad about commiting genocide if it were beneficial.

If the other species thought it was moral to kill another species they would do it (Reapers)

Warlocomotf wrote...

The batarians believe it is right for them to have slaves from other species but the Geth believe other species should self determinate.

There is very little rational reason to believe Legion, and the Batarians are denied many "priveledges".

So you see that some organics believe to be above one another.

[Someone With Mass]

CMDR Locke wrote...

I still 100% believe anyone taking the Geth side only does so because "lol Legion was cool." No sane human would ever choice a computer program/robot over a living breathing person.

+1

It's really hard to believe it's because the geth were apparently "innocent", even though they were merely tools at the time.

[Someone With Mass]

Clonedzero wrote...
yes. but i mean why would he lie to shepard? they have a common enemy.
he's not studying shepard, he's trying to get his help, big difference.

That doesn't mean Legion can't lie.