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[CMDR Locke]

xXljoshlXx wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

They are not a RACE OF PEOPLE they are a COLLECTION OF NETWORKED PROGRAMS.  If they were a race of people then I would be defending them.  You know who is a race of people?  The Quarians.  You know who is not a race?  Or a people?  A Networked collection of programs that inhabit a synthetic body.

So it matters how they gained sentience but not that they have it?
Then i should kill all other races because they didn't on evolve Earth like i did.

They are not sentient.  They simulate sentience.  The Geth themselves tell you they do not possess sentience until hundreds of programs are linked together.  They also do not have individuals.  They are but one.  Therefore they are not a people.  They a simulated sentience.

[Clonedzero]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Let me tell you what one single geth is.

Nothing more than a VI.

let me tell you what a single quarian is.

boring.

[Kitteh303]

marshalleck wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Let me tell you what one single geth is.

Nothing more than a VI.

And? You could be broken down into basic components as well. 

Unless of course you believe humans are magically special because we have souls.

And even that's debatable... 

[Someone With Mass]

Clonedzero wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Let me tell you what one single geth is.

Nothing more than a VI.

let me tell you what a single quarian is.

boring.

Let me tell you what arguing with you is. POINTLESS.

[JGDD]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Some people are so blindly trying to say that the geth were right to slaughter billions and how the geth were so innocent it gave them full right to do so, that they aren't receptive to logic anymore.

I find that quite funny. And incredibly stupid at the same time.

Some others are so blindly siding with an inferior ally they forget what the original question was about. The galaxy is at stake and a hard decision is needed. Do you pick the cannon fodder or the never ending supply of lethal, unemotional, laser focused robots?

Once again my original choice is: Geth. Always.

[Warlocomotf]

Clonedzero wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

again, ignore my point about during the morningwar the geth were basically children themselves. having just attained self-awareness and having to fight for their lives.

I don't think this is a very good reason. The Geth have memory of well before they became sentient, and were sentient years before the Quarians actually found out.

memory without the context of conciousness isnt super meaningful. they would need to reflect on that. they sorta didnt have alot of time to sort through all of that when they were being murdered.

They gained sentience years before anyone tried to murder them. When Legion plays the audio recording of the Geth asking a Quarian if he had a soul, Shepard asked Legion if this was when the Gath became sentient. Legion responds "No", it was when the Quarians first freaked out that the Geth were sentient.

[xXljoshlXx]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Let me tell you what arguing with you is. POINTLESS.

Denounce this valuable point  instead of his not so serious one

marshalleck wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Let me tell you what one single geth is.

Nothing more than a VI.

And? You could be broken down into basic components as well. 

Unless of course you believe humans are magically special because we have souls.

[Someone With Mass]

marshalleck wrote...
And? You could be broken down into basic components as well. 

Unless of course you believe humans are magically special because we have souls.

I like to think that one human is more than one geth, yes.

And one geth program is not a basic component. It's what they all are.

[Kitteh303]

You could break down an organic or synthetic organism into the sum of its parts, and on both counts you'd be wrong. It's way more complicated than that.

[xXljoshlXx]

Someone With Mass wrote...
I like to think that one human is more than one geth, yes.
And one geth program is not a basic component. It's what they all are.

Cells could fit both of those.

[marshalleck]

Kitteh303 wrote...

You could break down an organic or synthetic organism into the sum of its parts, and on both counts you'd be wrong. It's way more complicated than that.

Disagree. You're no more than the sum of your parts. Complex for sure, but "you" are still just a result of all the electrochemical and other physical processes of your brain; your hardware.

Modifié par marshalleck, 14 août 2011 - 03:06 .

[Someone With Mass]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...
Some others are so blindly siding with an inferior ally they forget what the original question was about. The galaxy is at stake and a hard decision is needed. Do you pick the cannon fodder or the never ending supply of lethal, unemotional, laser focused robots?

Once again my original choice is: Geth. Always.

Endless? Last time I checked, geth needs bodies to be able to interact with...anything outside their hubs and stations. 

Quarians can be much more than canon fodder, but that just flies over your head, because robots are cool.

[Someone With Mass]

xXljoshlXx wrote...
Cells could fit both of those.

Your point is?

[Kitteh303]

marshalleck wrote...

Kitteh303 wrote...

You could break down an organic or synthetic organism into the sum of its parts, and on both counts you'd be wrong. It's way more complicated than that.

Disagree. You're no more than the sum of your parts. Complex for sure, but "you" are still just a result of all the electrochemical and other physical processes of your brain; your hardware.

Let me restate, because I actually agree with you there and I think I just expressed it incorrectly. 

For the purposes of degrading someone/something, it's wrong to say that they're just the sum of their parts because of that complexity. It's just a statement and it's not inherently negative. 

So, it's wrong for the purposes of arguing something's value. 

[Clonedzero]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Let me tell you what arguing with you is. POINTLESS.

im sorry. i dont find much difference int he morality between killing one species off vs. another.
i'll admit im slightly bias towards the geth because i actually find them interesting.

you can spout all the nonesense you want about them being "programs" but basically all humans are is a program inside an organic body. whats the difference? because ones organic and the other isnt?

you can argue about the morality of the morning war, where the recently self-aware geth were going to be all killed so in a desperate act of self-defense  they killed their quarian masters. but neither side was right there. i can understand the geths simple response of self defense, and i can understand the quarians reaction to shut them down before things got out of hand.

you can argue that the geth became too isolationist. but you can also say that was because the one organic life-form they knew tried to kill them all. you can argue that them studying organics was an act of hostility, or you can say they are simply trying to understand organics better before making contact.

neither side is right. neither side is innocent. its a morally grey situation, which makes the whole thing more interesting.

quarians are boring and whiney.
geth are interesting and unique.

[marshalleck]

Someone With Mass wrote...

xXljoshlXx wrote...
Cells could fit both of those.

Your point is?

The point is a reductionist argument can fit organic intelligence as well. 

[Someone With Mass]

Clonedzero wrote...
geth are interesting and unique.

Pff. Hardly unique.

[AnAccountWithNoName]

I just don't get how people think the Geth are innocent.

They are not. They butchered billions and billions, showed no distinction between military and non-military, man, women, child, even those who although were organic, weren't quarian.

Was there not a better way in this?

What if something happened like this on Earth? We make machines in Man's image, however we don't intentionally make them self-aware. Over time they start to become more and more intelligent. We would begin to fear them, for machines don't think like humans do, morals, or any sense of "humanity", is not apart of them. Therefore i could see why we would want to shut them off, and try to restrain them. For the machines don't care about rules, or laws in the government.

Now say our plan backfires, the machines pull a skynet and nuke us. We pull a battlestar and flee into space, forming a rag tag fleet. Now put yourself in the shoes of the humans in this situation. Wouldn't you want your home back? Why does all of humanity deserve to be punished? Just because our leaders didn't try to form peace with self-aware "toasters", does not mean what the machines did was right.

[Someone With Mass]

marshalleck wrote...
The point is a reductionist argument can fit organic intelligence as well. 

Yeah? One geth program is not their most basic component. That would be their codes.

[Clonedzero]

Someone With Mass wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...
Some others are so blindly siding with an inferior ally they forget what the original question was about. The galaxy is at stake and a hard decision is needed. Do you pick the cannon fodder or the never ending supply of lethal, unemotional, laser focused robots?

Once again my original choice is: Geth. Always.

Endless? Last time I checked, geth needs bodies to be able to interact with...anything outside their hubs and stations. 

Quarians can be much more than canon fodder, but that just flies over your head, because robots are cool.

really? i have yet to see a useful quarian int he mass effect universe.
tali? im always solving her problems. she cant even lead her own unit, both times she got tasked with leading one, pretty much everyone died lol.
kal'reeger? having a cool voice actor only goes so far.
all quarians encountered off the flotilla i pretty much ahve to solve every problem they have.
the ones ont he flotilla? stubborn and utterly stupid, every single one of them.

[Clonedzero]

Someone With Mass wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
The point is a reductionist argument can fit organic intelligence as well. 

Yeah? One geth program is not their most basic component. That would be their codes.

you mean different species are different?! MY GOD!

[Ryzaki]

I admit to being bias because the Quarians couldn't handle their business. They tried to bypass the law...which is fine if they could handle their business. They didn't. It's also why I think the council came down so hard on them. Council races are expected to handle their own ****. The humans when they fooled around with AI (Luna, EDI) caused no danger to any species other than themselves and both incidents were hastily dealt with. (there maybe more but like the above were dealt with before they became a threat to anyone else). Unlike the Quarians who not only got curbstomped by the Geth but their AIs got even more powerful and are a threat to anyone they do not like. Hell even Cerberus (even if they called in Shepard) ended their AI problem before it spread.  

They not only proved their inability to follow the law, but their inability to deal with the fallout of their experiments with the geth is what probably damned them in the council's eyes. Self sufficency and not causing more problems than you solve is probably paramount when it comes to the council. Even the Salarians once the Krogan began to threaten the galaxy (Their mistake) they created the genophage and pretty much handed it over to the turians so said mistake could be quickly rectified. 

Of course that might all just be my own ramblings.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 août 2011 - 03:20 .

[marshalleck]

Someone With Mass wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
The point is a reductionist argument can fit organic intelligence as well. 

Yeah? One geth program is not their most basic component. That would be their codes.

All you're doing here is arguing that intelligence arises from complex interaction of discrete systems, both organic and synthetic. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 14 août 2011 - 03:22 .

[Chun Hei]

@ Ryzaki -- I am still mad I did not make more money selling Legion.

[Clonedzero]

AnAccountWithNoName wrote...

I just don't get how people think the Geth are innocent.

They are not. They butchered billions and billions, showed no distinction between military and non-military, man, women, child, even those who although were organic, weren't quarian.

Was there not a better way in this?

What if something happened like this on Earth? We make machines in Man's image, however we don't intentionally make them self-aware. Over time they start to become more and more intelligent. We would begin to fear them, for machines don't think like humans do, morals, or any sense of "humanity", is not apart of them. Therefore i could see why we would want to shut them off, and try to restrain them. For the machines don't care about rules, or laws in the government.

Now say our plan backfires, the machines pull a skynet and nuke us. We pull a battlestar and flee into space, forming a rag tag fleet. Now put yourself in the shoes of the humans in this situation. Wouldn't you want your home back? Why does all of humanity deserve to be punished? Just because our leaders didn't try to form peace with self-aware "toasters", does not mean what the machines did was right.

your battlestar analogy would be great if the cylons werent actively trying to kill the remaining humans.
the geth arent hunting down the quarians.