758 réponses à ce sujet

[Clonedzero]

Kasai666 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Kasai666 wrote...
Worded poorly. The majority of the geth want peace, but the majority of the quarians want to kill all the geth. One quarians made the mistake by trying to kill the geth that asked if it had a soul. The geth fought back because they wanted to survive, not kill all the quarians out of spite. 

Or not.

Exactly my point. It was the first time one got worried when asked. One quarian started the war. 

no. one quarian didnt start the war rofl.
the quarians as a species decided to shut down the geth. it wasnt one person rofl, where did you get that from?

[DJRackham]

azerSheppard wrote...

DJRackham wrote...

I'm sorry, but if my toaster asked me if it had a soul, you better believe I'd be trying to yank it's power cord out of the wall socket in a big hurry.

Toaster? i don't think you comprehend the purpose of A.I.


**snipped other words**

From the Quarian point of view, yes. Toaster. The Geth were created to fill specific roles, much like the robots that are taking human jobs in automobile manufacturing plants. Do you honestly think, if those bots making Chevys started asking if they had a soul, that the powers that be wouldn't be pulling the plug on the plant until the software engineers could be called in to see what went wrong and have the bots reprogrammed so that production could be started up again?

[azerSheppard]

Someone With Mass wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

Toaster? i don't think you comprehend the purpose of A.I.

The geth aren't even AIs.

They are VIs.

I don't know what game you play, but the Geth are definetly A.I.
Now if you are questioning their coding, then yes they are not A.I. since there is no actual way to code a true A.I. (one can achieve some basic "intelligence via neural networks, but it would require billions of them to achieve the intelligence of a mere child.)

Transhumanism, now that is what can and WILL happen.

[Pulletlamer]

Someone With Mass wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

Toaster? i don't think you comprehend the purpose of A.I.

The geth aren't even AIs.

They are VIs.

Exactly. They are (more or less) like LOKI mechs. Only that they "share minds" and due to that they grew up in intelligence very fast. But at the beginning I'm sure they were just no better than mechs.

I certainly consider the "sharing mind" feature was what screwed it all up. Without that they could have been controlled.

[Aradace]

DJRackham wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

DJRackham wrote...

I'm sorry, but if my toaster asked me if it had a soul, you better believe I'd be trying to yank it's power cord out of the wall socket in a big hurry.

Toaster? i don't think you comprehend the purpose of A.I.


**snipped other words**

From the Quarian point of view, yes. Toaster. The Geth were created to fill specific roles, much like the robots that are taking human jobs in automobile manufacturing plants. Do you honestly think, if those bots making Chevys started asking if they had a soul, that the powers that be wouldn't be pulling the plug on the plant until the software engineers could be called in to see what went wrong and have the bots reprogrammed so that production could be started up again?

Irrelevant because that scenario wont happen.  Why? Because the automobile "AIs" are the simplest most base form of the term.  Where as the Geth are a MUCH more complex AI.  And the Quarians created them as such knowing full well (unless they're complete idiots) the risks of an AI developing sentience.

[DialupToaster]

Some guys are sitting in a bar. Some new guys walk in and start attacking the guys in the bar. The original people in the bar kill them... Then every other man woman and child in the country. The also kill people from other countries because they just happened to be there at the time (Remember dead asari?) How is that NOT genocide?

^defending yourself is good, but if you kill everyone else (the peopple who did nothing) it is still genocide. Okay, I hardly get what I said so how about I put it this way...

I wake up and want some toast bacon and pancakes. My toaster asks if it has a soul... I unplug it and turn around. My toaster stabs me to death with a knife, it tells all the other toasters to kill their owners.

Quarian: I want my home back ):
Geth: Negative.
Quarian: I'll kill you!
Shepard: Geth do you even need the planet?
Geth: No
Shepard: Why can't they have their planet and you just find a new one then?
Geth: No data.
Geth: The quarians have proven to be 100% hostile when they think they can win.
Shepard: You make a good argument!
*Shep shoots quarian in the head.
Geth get hacked by reaper and kill everyone.
Shep: How was I to know any small choice could have such a big impact?

^Pretty much the general thought process.

Edit: Okay I don't even get what I said completely so easy fix to the whole problem.
/////Paragon/////
Geth move to new world and quarians get their old one, we get both armies. Let me stress the fact that the geth don't even need the planet, they just inhabit it.
///////Renegade///// "You can fight at my side or get crushed under my heel, but you WILL NOT stand in my way!"- Ren Shep.
So in this example I say screw it and kill both of them because they are starting to annoy me.

Modifié par randomchasegurney, 12 août 2011 - 08:23 .

[azerSheppard]

Pulletlamer wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

Toaster? i don't think you comprehend the purpose of A.I.

The geth aren't even AIs.

They are VIs.

Exactly. They are (more or less) like LOKI mechs. Only that they "share minds" and due to that they grew up in intelligence very fast. But at the beginning I'm sure they were just no better than mechs.

I certainly consider the "sharing mind" feature was what screwed it all up. Without that they could have been controlled.

Anything that asks about their soul is far above a loki mech. infact when it comes to actual intelligence, which incorporates self education, animals stand above mechs and V.I. 
It's the common mistake of believing coputers to be superior to humans, the current supercomputers can barely match the intelligence of a house cat.

[didymos1120]

azerSheppard wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

Toaster? i don't think you comprehend the purpose of A.I.

The geth aren't even AIs.

They are VIs.

I don't know what game you play, but the Geth are definetly A.I.

Pay more attention to Legion:

Each individual is equivalent to one of your virtual intelligence programs. Together, we form a single gestalt intellect. What you refer to as "Legion." As individual programs, we are no more than your software. Only when we share data do we become more.

They form ad-hoc, ever-changing minds only in cooperation: swap out some of the individual VI-level runtimes, and you get a different "person".   There's a species in Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon The Deep that actually has a lot in common with the geth: the Tines.  As individuals, they're basically no smarter than a dog (and look like them as well).  Put them in a pack, however, and they become a person. 

[helemaalnicks]

Wow, this one is so easy, it is not even funny. Geth claim the right to exist, and the right to selfgovernance, that is enough to grant them the rights.
- Morally
- (2011) International law
- Weaponry
They're all on Geth side. I have trouble understanding the debate to be honest. Best thing you guys can do, is take legion and do Tali's loyalty mission with legion on their side. Will be good for quarians to get used to their presence, that's always an important requirement for peace.

[DrekorSilverfang]

Quarian controlled Geth.

[helemaalnicks]

I see everyone talk about the morning war, about the one quarian that supposedly did all this, but I fail to see any relevance...
None of the quarians that lived on that planet are still alive. At some point you just lose the right to 'home territory', otherwise I'd be spanish right now, and last time I checked, I wasn't spanish.

EDIT: I'm not a roman either.

Modifié par helemaalnicks, 12 août 2011 - 08:35 .

[Clonedzero]

helemaalnicks wrote...

I see everyone talk about the morning war, about the one quarian that supposedly did all this, but I fail to see any relevance...
None of the quarians that lived on that planet are still alive. At some point you just lose the right to 'home territory', otherwise I'd be spanish right now, and last time I checked, I wasn't spanish.

EDIT: I'm not a roman either.

it wasnt one quarian who started the war. i have no idea where they are getting that from.

a geth was all like "do i have a soul?" and the quarian was all like "wtf?" and then went to the quarian government and was all like "sup, my geth is all asking about his soul and being all self aware and stuff" and then the quarians were all like "well, i guess we should kill them all before the council finds out lol"

[azerSheppard]

didymos1120 wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

Toaster? i don't think you comprehend the purpose of A.I.

The geth aren't even AIs.

They are VIs.

I don't know what game you play, but the Geth are definetly A.I.

Pay more attention to Legion:

Each individual is equivalent to one of your virtual intelligence programs. Together, we form a single gestalt intellect. What you refer to as "Legion." As individual programs, we are no more than your software. Only when we share data do we become more.

They form ad-hoc, ever-changing minds only in cooperation: swap out some of the individual VI-level runtimes, and you get a different "person".   There's a species in Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon The Deep that actually has a lot in common with the geth: the Tines.  As individuals, they're basically no smarter than a dog (and look like them as well).  Put them in a pack, however, and they become a person. 

Anything that can make philosophical inquiries is sapient. Any software capable of self-learning, subjective opinion
and abstract thinking is an A.I.

All you did was prove that the writers behind legions dialouge know jack about coding and A.I. 

Anyone who can code knows ad-hoc A.I. CAN NOT think abstract, or have a subjective opinion, or even self-learn. Infact it's theoretically impossible to create a complete ad-hoc mind unless the coding itself is done by a true A.I.
All adhoc can achieve is a V.I. esque predeterminded set of choices. kind  of like the conversationwheel in ME.

Now if the Geth are infact coded this way, how are they increasing their databand with new choices? This can only be done by abstract thinking sentient beings. The quarians certainly aren't updating them. 
The conclusion is that they are doing it themselves, by analysing data and creating a new stream of possible choices, this creative thinking tho is impossible to be performed by their own coding. <-- Paradox created due bad writing

Modifié par azerSheppard, 12 août 2011 - 08:43 .

[DialupToaster]

The geth do not need the planet to survive the quarians do.
Now you think it is morally just to murder children and adult quarians alike just because a long time ago the quarians wanted to turn off a machine they thought was going to kill them all? Though if not given a choice it is better strategically to choose the geth.
So for paragons choosing geth and renegades picking quarians, I am willing to bet that
Renegade = geth
neutral = quarian
paragon = stop fight.
Just a guess but you know how the do it....

[Mass N7 Effect N7 Maniac]

[quote]azerSheppard wrote...

[quote]DJRackham wrote...

I'm sorry, but if my toaster asked me if it had a soul, you better believe I'd be trying to yank it's power cord out of the wall socket in a big hurry.[/quote]

Toaster? i don't think you comprehend the purpose of A.I.


The Quarians got what they deserved, if attacked you must retaliate or perish, it was survival. If peace is an option i'll go with that, otherwise, i'm with the Geth. Not only are they the "innocent" party, they also possess a far greater potentian than the Quarians. If they succeed in uniting into a single platform, it would be interesting to see if they reach an intelligence explosion, resulting in the creation of Reapers, a lifeform beyond comprehension.

It's not an actual explosion, just adding that, you wouldn't know how coocooo some people on the forum are.



 And though I'm sure it'll just get ignored like it always does: the quarians didn't think they were truly sentient yet when they issued the shutdown order.  They believed they were dangerously close and hoped to prevent it.

Any creature questioning their reason of existance is sentient. Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive or be conscious, or to have subjective experiences.

Even if they weren't sentient, they where sapient due to their philosophical reasoning, total annihilation of a sentient race is genocide.
[/quote/]




one word........AWESOME!!

Modifié par Mass N7 Effect N7 Maniac, 12 août 2011 - 08:55 .

[DialupToaster]

azerSheppard wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

Toaster? i don't think you comprehend the purpose of A.I.

The geth aren't even AIs.

They are VIs.

I don't know what game you play, but the Geth are definetly A.I.

Pay more attention to Legion:

Each individual is equivalent to one of your virtual intelligence programs. Together, we form a single gestalt intellect. What you refer to as "Legion." As individual programs, we are no more than your software. Only when we share data do we become more.

They form ad-hoc, ever-changing minds only in cooperation: swap out some of the individual VI-level runtimes, and you get a different "person".   There's a species in Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon The Deep that actually has a lot in common with the geth: the Tines.  As individuals, they're basically no smarter than a dog (and look like them as well).  Put them in a pack, however, and they become a person. 

Anything that can make philosophical inquiries is sapient. Any software capable of self-learning, subjective opinion
and abstract thinking is an A.I.

All you did was prove that the writers behind legions dialouge know jack about coding and A.I. 

Anyone who can code knows ad-hoc A.I. CAN NOT think abstract, or have a subjective opinion, or even self-learn. Infact it's theoretically impossible to create a complete ad-hoc mind unless the coding itself is done by a true A.I.
All adhoc can achieve is a V.I. esque predeterminded set of choices. kind  of like the conversationwheel in ME.

Now if the Geth are infact coded this way, how are they increasing their databand with new choices? This can only be done by abstract thinking sentient beings. The quarians certainly aren't updating them. 
The conclusion is that they are doing it themselves, by analysing data and creating a new stream of possible choices, this creative thinking tho is impossible to be performed by their own coding. <-- Paradox created due bad writing

A single geth alone is no smarter then say a loki mech (it can shoot and walk but can't think or plan.) When you have BILLIONS of them in one place they can think, build, and invent. Can't really word it better then 1 geth = 1 dumb Vi 12 geth = 12 "smart" AI 1 billion geth = new race. This is true because the more numerous the smarter they get. Legion is a special geth (only one of him.)  So stop thinking legion is what the general geth are like!

[Saaziel]

randomchasegurney wrote...

The geth do not need the planet to survive the quarians do.
Now you think it is morally just to murder children and adult quarians alike just because a long time ago the quarians wanted to turn off a machine they thought was going to kill them all?

Its not like the Quarian asked for their planet back. They haven't stop shooting for 300 years, and are still actively hostile in many ways... Even though they were , for the lack of a better word , defeated.

Modifié par Saaziel, 12 août 2011 - 08:54 .

[azerSheppard]

randomchasegurney wrote...

The geth do not need the planet to survive the quarians do.
Now you think it is morally just to murder children and adult quarians alike just because a long time ago the quarians wanted to turn off a machine they thought was going to kill them all? Though if not given a choice it is better strategically to choose the geth.
So for paragons choosing geth and renegades picking quarians, I am willing to bet that
Renegade = geth
neutral = quarian
paragon = stop fight.
Just a guess but you know how the do it....

Common misconception, the Geth did not retaliate in means of total annihilation, they retaliated in armed combat, to defend their right of self-termination. (how ironic)
And gave the Quarians a chance to flee, if wanted they could easily wipe them out even now. But they won't, they only want to improve themselves, unite into one unit.

They have not killed a single quarian since the so called war. (This excludes heretic activity). Legion was the first Geth to leave their territory. (atleast thats what i remember) And Shepard was the first organic they wanted to contact.

So no it not morally just to murder innocents, but the Geth would agree with you on that.

[Saaziel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

How are the quarians supposed to ask for their planet geth?

With words.

Saphra Deden wrote... It is the ONLY the quarians who ever even attempted to send a peaceful message.

When was that ? And also you should notice Legion's interest in opening up negotiation.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Stop sucking on geth dick.

Geth do not possess genitalia.

[DialupToaster]

Saaziel wrote...

randomchasegurney wrote...

The geth do not need the planet to survive the quarians do.
Now you think it is morally just to murder children and adult quarians alike just because a long time ago the quarians wanted to turn off a machine they thought was going to kill them all?

Its not like the Quarian asked for their planet back. They haven't stop shooting for 300 years, and are still actively hostile in many ways... Even though they were , for the lack of a better word , defeated.

True, but can you say that you yourself would not hold a grudge against a species that made it so that you have to live your life on a ship until you die and can never take your suit of for more then a short while? That because of the geth the citadel races refuse to even let you colonize? That every other race has a grudge against you?
Finally how can shepard rationalize commiting genocide against the quarians because they attempted genocide against the geth a long time ago? Or how can he rationalize commiting genocide against the geth because the quarians wont negotiate their planet back?

[Saaziel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Killing off 99% of a species, killing every quarian unable to flee, is murder, it is genocide.

Saphra Deden wrote...The quarians attacking the geth 100% of the time (during the war) when they thought they can win doesn't mean much. Any force will do that during a conflict since the objective of a war is to win.

Its only fair to attack when you think you can win... Apparently.