758 réponses à ce sujet

[azerSheppard]

Arcian wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

I can't save everyone. Remember Tsun Tzu words, "He who protects everything protects nothing.”

Sun Tzu never met Shepard.

You mean Walters never heard of Tzun Tzu. xd



just made it to lighten up the topic

[Rivercurse]

As much as I like Tali, the geth were wronged.

I support them.

[DialupToaster]

azerSheppard wrote...

randomchasegurney wrote...

A single geth alone is no smarter then say a loki mech (it can shoot and walk but can't think or plan.) When you have BILLIONS of them in one place they can think, build, and invent. Can't really word it better then 1 geth = 1 dumb Vi 12 geth = 12 "smart" AI 1 billion geth = new race. This is true because the more numerous the smarter they get. Legion is a special geth (only one of him.)  So stop thinking legion is what the general geth are like!

I don't think you read my post, read it again, slowly, 3 times.

Really i can't put it more simply that that, the argument you just made was proven to be false by the post you replied it to.
I mean wow.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Killing off 99% of a species, killing every quarian unable to flee, is murder, it is genocide.

Where do you get that percentage. Also, by your logic, if you attempt genocide, and fail only to have you numbers diminished to a few million, you become a victim?
So for instance the Naz! supremasist where victims, because they failed to kill off every race and pretty much died out themselves? that doesn't make much sense.
!
Don't look in the naz! part too deep, i'm not camparing the Quarians to the Naz!s, all i'm doing is making an analogy with known real life examples. <-- incase someone misunderstands.

Okay let me start off by saying that the codex says that the geth become more intelligent as they grow in numbers and that they are no smarter then a vi.
The quarians designed them to be Vi's but made them networked together (they can share data and thus why they become more intelligent in numbers)
They became sentient because so many geth had been made by that point (remember that with each one made their intelligence grew) and because of this the quarians were commiting slavery at this point and decided to terminate them for fear of them rebeling (because you know races that are enslaved tend to do that.)

Next. Are you a victim if you try to commit genocide only to have it commited on you?
No. You are a victim if everyother race decides to let your race rot in space because you failed to commit genocide on the geth.

"The geth were created by the quarians as a labor force. Wary of rebellion by intelligent AIs, the geth were designed as VIs, as advanced as possible while remaining non-sentient. They were also designed to operate more efficiently when networked together"
So here is where I got my info. GG

Why quarians can't be friends at the time : "They (the geth) adopted an extremely isolationist attitude- any ships that ventured into geth space were immediately attacked and destroyed"

Modifié par randomchasegurney, 12 août 2011 - 09:33 .

[Clonedzero]

Quole wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

Quole wrote...


Except not all quarians agreed with it. Koris is proof of that.

alot of good they did huh? they didnt stop them.
and koris has hindsight he doesnt count.

A lot of good americans did when they didnt stop their country from going to war with Iraq huh? Same with Germany and Hitler. Again, whats your point?

that americans are responsible for the war in iraq and that the germans were responsible for the holocaust, thats my point.
whats your point?

nothing is more damning to a civilization than the inaction of good men to prevent evil men from commiting evil.

if you're against a war your country is in and you're doing nothing to stop it, then you are as guilty as the ones who support the war.

[Quole]

Clonedzero wrote...

Quole wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

Quole wrote...


Except not all quarians agreed with it. Koris is proof of that.

alot of good they did huh? they didnt stop them.
and koris has hindsight he doesnt count.

A lot of good americans did when they didnt stop their country from going to war with Iraq huh? Same with Germany and Hitler. Again, whats your point?

that americans are responsible for the war in iraq and that the germans were responsible for the holocaust, thats my point.
whats your point?

nothing is more damning to a civilization than the inaction of good men to prevent evil men from commiting evil.

if you're against a war your country is in and you're doing nothing to stop it, then you are as guilty as the ones who support the war.

Lol, protestors really stopped that war huh? You can be opposed to something but not be able to necessarily do anything aboout it.

My point is that not everyone is at fault if the majority decides something.

Modifié par Quole, 12 août 2011 - 09:27 .

[Clonedzero]

Quole wrote...

Right, Im sure when americans were voting, they were aware that 911 was going to happen, right?

off-topic.

but if you're voting for someone you dont trust in an emergency to make the right calls, then you're an idiot.

whats your point? especially to the topic at hand?

[DialupToaster]

Saaziel wrote...

randomchasegurney wrote...
True, but can you say that you yourself would not hold a grudge against a species that made it so that you have to live your life on a ship until you die and can never take your suit of for more then a short while?

You can still hold a grudge and open up a dialogue .They wouldn't be in this condition if did.

randomchasegurney wrote...That because of the geth the citadel races refuse to even let you colonize? That every other race has a grudge against you?

That's not something the Geth can directly change ... Unless they destroy the council races.

randomchasegurney wrote...Finally how can shepard rationalize commiting genocide against the quarians because they attempted genocide against the geth a long time ago? Or how can he rationalize commiting genocide against the geth because the quarians wont negotiate their planet back?

You mean , within the topic of this thread.

Its a strategic decision. Organics can be indoctrinated , synthetics cannot. Organics die , the Geth do not. We need a varied force to combat the Reapers , and this will not be over soon. Soldiers that don't require to Eat , Sleep or Comforts would be a valuable asset.

Moreover , should we fail , we'd need to warn the next cycle; The Geth are the best option at hand.

Again, every Shepard is different.

It appears that
Morally we agree to disagree
but strategically we agree geth are the way to go.

[Clonedzero]

Quole wrote...

Lol, protestors really stopped that war huh? What can you do?

My point is that not everyone is at fault if the majority decides something.

well duh captain obvious.

quarians tried to commit genocide against the geth.

americans invaded iraq.

yes, theres some people who disagreed, but what significance is that? they didnt stop it. therefore arent worth mentioning int he discussion.

[Quole]

Clonedzero wrote...

Quole wrote...

Right, Im sure when americans were voting, they were aware that 911 was going to happen, right?

off-topic.

but if you're voting for someone you dont trust in an emergency to make the right calls, then you're an idiot.

whats your point? especially to the topic at hand?

..... My point is... I doubt the quarians were aware that the geth would become sentient when they were making their government. Unexpected things happen, and the geth questioning their existence was certainly one of them, and Im sure that wasnt in mind when they were voting.

Modifié par Quole, 12 août 2011 - 09:32 .

[Quole]

Clonedzero wrote...

Quole wrote...

Lol, protestors really stopped that war huh? What can you do?

My point is that not everyone is at fault if the majority decides something.

well duh captain obvious.

quarians tried to commit genocide against the geth.

americans invaded iraq.

yes, theres some people who disagreed, but what significance is that? they didnt stop it. therefore arent worth mentioning int he discussion.

Wow. Im speechless at your stupidity.......... wait. Pwener, is that you?

[Clonedzero]

Quole wrote...

..... My point is... I doubt the quarians were aware that the geth would become sentient when they were making their government.

are you making up a hypothetical geth-rights protest group during the mornignwar?
the quarian people as a whole are responsible for what the quarian people as a whole did.
we're not talking about every single individual here.

sally was pro-war but billy was pro-geth rights. no, we're not talkinga bout that at all lol.

[azerSheppard]

randomchasegurney wrote...

snip

Okay let me start off by saying that the codex says that the geth become more intelligent as they grow in numbers and that they are no smarter then a vi.
The quarians designed them to be Vi's but made them networked together (they can share data and thus why they become more intelligent in numbers)
They became sentient because so many geth had been made by that point (remember that with each one made their intelligence grew) and because of this the quarians were commiting slavery at this point and decided to terminate them for fear of them rebeling (because you know races that are enslaved tend to do that.)

Next. Are you a victim if you try to commit genocide only to have it commited on you?
No. You are a victim if everyother race decides to let your race rot in space because you failed to commit genocide on the geth.

"The geth were created by the quarians as a labor force. Wary of rebellion by intelligent AIs, the geth were designed as VIs, as advanced as possible while remaining non-sentient. They were also designed to operate more efficiently
when networked together"
So here is where I got my info. GG

This is what you replied to:
Anything that can make philosophical inquiries is sapient. Any software capable of self-learning, subjective opinion
and abstract thinking is an A.I.

All you did was prove that the writers behind legions dialouge know jack about coding and A.I. 

Anyone who can code knows ad-hoc A.I. CAN NOT think abstract, or have a subjective opinion, or even self-learn. Infact it's theoretically impossible to create a complete ad-hoc mind unless the coding itself is done by a true A.I.
All adhoc can achieve is a V.I. esque predeterminded set of choices. kind  of like the conversationwheel in ME.

Now if the Geth are infact coded this way, how are they increasing their databand with new choices? This can only be done by abstract thinking sentient beings. The quarians certainly aren't updating them. 
The conclusion is that they are doing it themselves, by analysing data and creating a new stream of possible choices, this creative thinking tho is impossible to be performed by their own coding. <-- Paradox created due bad writing


The TLDR version is: There is no such thing as a VI in real life, only A.I. (some more complex than others) mass effect writers don't know anything about actual A.I.
Geth are true A.I. and are sentient+sapient.

[Quole]

Clonedzero wrote...

Quole wrote...

..... My point is... I doubt the quarians were aware that the geth would become sentient when they were making their government.

are you making up a hypothetical geth-rights protest group during the mornignwar?
the quarian people as a whole are responsible for what the quarian people as a whole did.
we're not talking about every single individual here.

sally was pro-war but billy was pro-geth rights. no, we're not talkinga bout that at all lol.

I can see my point went completely over your head.

Modifié par Quole, 12 août 2011 - 09:34 .

[Clonedzero]

Quole wrote...

Wow. Im speechless at your stupidity.......... wait. Pwener, is that you?

what significance do the minority of quarians who hypothetically were pro-geth rights have in this current discussion, please tell me. seriously.

they didnt stop it.
they've never even been mentioned or referenced.
they might not have even existed.
you made them up.

how is that relevent to the discussion?

Modifié par Clonedzero, 12 août 2011 - 09:36 .

[Seryuu]

Clonedzero wrote...

Quole wrote...

..... My point is... I doubt the quarians were aware that the geth would become sentient when they were making their government.

are you making up a hypothetical geth-rights protest group during the mornignwar?
the quarian people as a whole are responsible for what the quarian people as a whole did.
we're not talking about every single individual here.

sally was pro-war but billy was pro-geth rights. no, we're not talkinga bout that at all lol.

This

[jshadow]

Make love, not war. Support peace.
http://social.biowar...5/index/8017183

[Someone With Mass]

Skullheart wrote...

I can't save everyone. Remember Tsun Tzu words, "He who protects everything protects nothing.”

Sun Tzo also said:

"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight, even though the ruler forbid it."

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 12 août 2011 - 09:38 .

[Proto-Man]

I would choose the geth.

[Quole]

Clonedzero wrote...

Quole wrote...

Wow. Im speechless at your stupidity.......... wait. Pwener, is that you?

what significance do the minority of quarians who hypothetically were pro-geth rights have in this current discussion, please tell me. seriously.

they didnt stop it.
they've never even been mentioned or referenced.
they might not have even existed.
you made them up.

how are relevent to the discussion?

My point is; They obviously did exist,  if they exist now. My point is that not everyone deserved what happened if they didnt agree with their government`s descision. Like on Earth, you can protest ect. but when your government and lot of people decide something, theres not much you can do about it. So, many of the quarians had to suffer for something they likely didnt even agree with. By your logic, if a country went to war, but 30% of the population disagreed with it, everyone would be at fault, even there was nothing they could do to prevent it.

Modifié par Quole, 12 août 2011 - 09:45 .

[Quole]

Ado13 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

Quole wrote...

..... My point is... I doubt the quarians were aware that the geth would become sentient when they were making their government.

are you making up a hypothetical geth-rights protest group during the mornignwar?
the quarian people as a whole are responsible for what the quarian people as a whole did.
we're not talking about every single individual here.

sally was pro-war but billy was pro-geth rights. no, we're not talkinga bout that at all lol.

This

Wow, theres a lot of stupid people on this forum. Oh wait, that`s nothing new.
Where do these trolls keep coming from?

Modifié par Quole, 12 août 2011 - 09:45 .

[Clonedzero]

Quole wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

Quole wrote...

Wow. Im speechless at your stupidity.......... wait. Pwener, is that you?

what significance do the minority of quarians who hypothetically were pro-geth rights have in this current discussion, please tell me. seriously.

they didnt stop it.
they've never even been mentioned or referenced.
they might not have even existed.
you made them up.

how are relevent to the discussion?

My point is; They obviously did exsist,  if they exsist now. My point is that not everyone deserved what happened if they didnt agree with their government`s descision. Like on Earth, you can protest ect. but when your government and lot of people decide something, theres not much you can do about it. So, many of the quarians had to suffer for something they likely didnt even agree with. By your logic, if a country went to war, but 30% of the population disagreed with it, everyone would be at fault, even there was nothing they could do to prevent it.

not necessarily. the quarians now have the benefit of hindsight. you're assuming they cared with absolutely no evidence. the quarians saw the geth as cheap, guilt free slave labor. as machines. to them it was just turning off their washer machine.

and yes. if a country went to war and 30% of the population disagreed with it everyone would be at fault. theres PLENTY 30% of the population can do to prevent a war if they care enough about it. again, off topic.

also. how is this relevent to the disussion? because a hypothetical minority MIGHT have disagreed with attempting genocide against the geth, that makes it ok? seriously, whats your point?

[Clonedzero]

Quole wrote...


Wow, theres a lot of stupid people on this forum. Oh wait, that`s nothing new.
Where do these trolls keep coming from?

apparently you dont understand we're not talking about single people here. we're talking about the two species as a whole.

also, why are you being insulting and aggressive, theres no need for that. please check your attitude at the door next time.

[azerSheppard]

Saphra Deden wrote...

All of this of-course ignores the fact that the quarians too were acting in self-defense.

NO

What happened was as following:

Geth showed signs of sentience
Quarians decided to shutdown all Geth
Geth fought for survival
Quarians fled/where exiled

Self defensense is the act you undertake when you are met with hostility you did not envoke, trying to kill all Geth however doesnt fall under non-hostile activities.

It's like pulling out a knife to kill someone only to get shot by them. And then have the curtosy to call him a killer.

Modifié par azerSheppard, 12 août 2011 - 09:50 .

[DialupToaster]

azerSheppard wrote...

randomchasegurney wrote...

snip

Okay let me start off by saying that the codex says that the geth become more intelligent as they grow in numbers and that they are no smarter then a vi.
The quarians designed them to be Vi's but made them networked together (they can share data and thus why they become more intelligent in numbers)
They became sentient because so many geth had been made by that point (remember that with each one made their intelligence grew) and because of this the quarians were commiting slavery at this point and decided to terminate them for fear of them rebeling (because you know races that are enslaved tend to do that.)

Next. Are you a victim if you try to commit genocide only to have it commited on you?
No. You are a victim if everyother race decides to let your race rot in space because you failed to commit genocide on the geth.

"The geth were created by the quarians as a labor force. Wary of rebellion by intelligent AIs, the geth were designed as VIs, as advanced as possible while remaining non-sentient. They were also designed to operate more efficiently
when networked together"
So here is where I got my info. GG

This is what you replied to:
Anything that can make philosophical inquiries is sapient. Any software capable of self-learning, subjective opinion
and abstract thinking is an A.I.

All you did was prove that the writers behind legions dialouge know jack about coding and A.I. 

Anyone who can code knows ad-hoc A.I. CAN NOT think abstract, or have a subjective opinion, or even self-learn. Infact it's theoretically impossible to create a complete ad-hoc mind unless the coding itself is done by a true A.I.
All adhoc can achieve is a V.I. esque predeterminded set of choices. kind  of like the conversationwheel in ME.

Now if the Geth are infact coded this way, how are they increasing their databand with new choices? This can only be done by abstract thinking sentient beings. The quarians certainly aren't updating them. 
The conclusion is that they are doing it themselves, by analysing data and creating a new stream of possible choices, this creative thinking tho is impossible to be performed by their own coding. <-- Paradox created due bad writing


The TLDR version is: There is no such thing as a VI in real life, only A.I. (some more complex than others) mass effect writers don't know anything about actual A.I.
Geth are true A.I. and are sentient+sapient.

What I am stressing is that a single geth on it's own (not connected to any other geth, meaning the only one on the planet) is unable to do that. A single geth is not sentient it can't think, one geth is no smarter then loki mechs who as far as I can tell can't create new tech. A single geth is not like legion, I don't care if its a vi Ai or a robot that you type a command into. larger numbers = more inteligent, less numbers = less inteligent. It is that simple.
Ask me to explain what went through the writers heads when the made them and I will tell you that I honestly have no idea. None.