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[redneckwonderland]

Has it been confirmed TIM is Indoctrinated?
I assumed the troops are indoctrinated by TIM and his tech.

[marshalleck]

redneckwonderland wrote...

Has it been confirmed TIM is Indoctrinated?
I assumed the troops are indoctrinated by TIM and his tech.

No, rather the opposite actually according to Mac Walters' tweets. 

Edit: which is not to say confirmed TIM isn't indoctrinated....what Mr. Walters said was along the lines of TIM's motivations are his own (which suggests to me he isn't being mind-controlled)

Modifié par marshalleck, 13 août 2011 - 02:34 .

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

laecraft wrote...

There's nothing wrong with supremacy. You don't want to end up like the quarians, scraping for survival. You don't want to end up like the krogan, barely clinging to existence, and so utterly lacking the future that you'd be throwing every waking moment of your life away.

Why wouldn't you want to secure a position of power for your children to grow up unhurt and unterrified? Why would anyone ever willingly settle for less?

Exactly this. The reason people settle for less for their own children is because liberalism is a mental disorder!

The krogan, the quarians, the vorcha, the batarians, the volus, the humans! We've seen what happens to species held down by the big three. We can't settle for that for humanity.

I'm glad I won you over to the cause of Vorcha rights. :happy:

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Seboist wrote...

I'm glad I won you over to the cause of Vorcha rights. :happy:

Just paying lip-service. They're still animals to me. I can... sort of, put myself in their place though.

The Vorcha will be a great human client race during and after the Reaper. You know it.

Vorcha are good people.

[TMA LIVE]

marshalleck wrote...

redneckwonderland wrote...

Has it been confirmed TIM is Indoctrinated?
I assumed the troops are indoctrinated by TIM and his tech.

No, rather the opposite actually according to Mac Walters' tweets. 

Edit: which is not to say confirmed TIM isn't indoctrinated....what Mr. Walters said was along the lines of TIM's motivations are his own (which suggests to me he isn't being mind-controlled)

He did say he could be under influence though.

[xXljoshlXx]

Saphra Deden wrote...

laecraft wrote...

There's nothing wrong with supremacy. You don't want to end up like the quarians, scraping for survival. You don't want to end up like the krogan, barely clinging to existence, and so utterly lacking the future that you'd be throwing every waking moment of your life away.

Why wouldn't you want to secure a position of power for your children to grow up unhurt and unterrified? Why would anyone ever willingly settle for less?

Exactly this. The reason people settle for less for their own children is because liberalism is a mental disorder!

The krogan, the quarians, the vorcha, the batarians, the volus, the humans! We've seen what happens to species held down by the big three. We can't settle for that for humanity.

Seems like you got it too if your helping those races

[SandTrout]

xXljoshlXx wrote...

Seems like you got it too if your helping those races

Helping allies because it advances our own cause is a rational thought process. The alliance is mutualy beneficial, as opposed to 1-sided as it is with the current council.

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The Vorcha will be a great human client race during and after the Reaper. You know it.

Vorcha are good people.

As long as they'r kept far away from humanity... yes.

I'm afraid that won't be possible. The Vorcha are needed for search and rescue, reconstruction and security.

[xXljoshlXx]

SandTrout wrote...

xXljoshlXx wrote...

Seems like you got it too if your helping those races

Helping allies because it advances our own cause is a rational thought process. The alliance is mutualy beneficial, as opposed to 1-sided as it is with the current council.

I see now 

[xXljoshlXx]

Saphra Deden wrote...

My philosophy is this: do evil by doing good.

Hmm i can get on with that.

[Phaedon]

SandTrout wrote...
Lol. Phaedon, you really show your true colors with stuff like that.

You are supporting people that are openly endorsing supremacy. What the hell is wrong with you.

Marshal prophesized that someone would express an anti-human sentiment in the near future, and you simply hand-wave it when it happens ON THAT VERY THREAD.

There is nothing anti-human about that post. The Alliance comitted the crime and they had to pay for it. Suggesting that that is anti-human is...I won't go on.

We agreed to the Council conventions because the Turians would have conquered and functionally enslaved our species had we not. And when we ask for the Council to fulfil their oblication to aid in the defense of their associate members (Eden Prime), the Council said 'human problem, deal with it yourselves'. They got away with it because they were still the dominant powers.

Basically unsourced or simply incorrect BS.

--> The Council intervened to stop the conflict. It was the humans who decided to enter the galactic community, no one made them to.


--> Ascension clearly states that the Council races were involved in the Eden Prime War. Get your facts straight. They simply didn't launch an operation into the Terminus and instead sent Shepard after Saren.

Modifié par Phaedon, 13 août 2011 - 08:37 .

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...
"And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”

The quarians alive today are being punished for a crime they had no hand in committing. 

I haven't read the Bible in ages, and I never have in English, but thanks for the explanation.

And you are wrong anyway, the Quarians choose to punish themselves by not settling down in uninhabitted space.

Which certainly may change after Ascension. Ascension by itself proves that no one was punishing the Quarians of anything, other than creating an aggressive sentient species. Unless someone forcefully settling down on your territory is a-okay now.

laecraft wrote...

There's nothing wrong with supremacy. You don't want to end up like the quarians, scraping for survival. You don't want to end up like the krogan, barely clinging to existence, and so utterly lacking the future that you'd be throwing every waking moment of your life away. 

Why wouldn't you want to secure a position of power for your children to grow up unhurt and unterrified? Why would anyone ever willingly settle for less? What is it - fear? Self-hatred? Lack of faith in your own species? There's something broken with those species who don't have the ambition for power. Evolution will not favour them. They would be the first to surrender to the Reapers. They will give up saying that they're unworthy to live...much less to win.

But before we get derailed with the discussion of how utterly evil TIM is, and how hypothetical human supremacy is so much worse than real asari dictatorship, I'll say this on the OP: it's not yet impossible to make Cerberus an ally in ME3. It requires some non-straightforward writing, and a bit of finesse, but it could be done. And it wouldn't even take a genius writer to do it - just someone willing to put some time and effort into creating a less obvious route.

...I don't think you have the slightest idea of what supremacism is.

For starters you are mistaking racism and "rightful" ultranationalism with politicoeconomic domination.

Modifié par Phaedon, 13 août 2011 - 08:36 .

[RocketManSR2]

Some of those shots of Shepard in a Cerberus uni have me wondering if TIM sends us an offer to re-join Cerberus at some point. Refuse and he sends Kai Leng after you, accept and the VS leaves. Later, the Council sends Ash/Kaiden to kill you.

[Icinix]

The Cerberus are they / aren't they concept looks interesting.

Can't wait to see it all unfold.

[MassStorm]

Cerberus as an enemy totally RUINED my renegade experience. Sigh if i cannot have my human supremacy ending then i will let the reapers destroy everthing.

[SandTrout]

Phaedon wrote...

SandTrout wrote...
Lol. Phaedon, you really show your true colors with stuff like that.

You are supporting people that are openly endorsing supremacy. What the hell is wrong with you.

What is wrong with me is a very clear undestanding of history. Cultures seek dominance to the best of their abilities. Those that do not end up dominated.

Marshal prophesized that someone would express an anti-human sentiment in the near future, and you simply hand-wave it when it happens ON THAT VERY THREAD.

There is nothing anti-human about that post. The Alliance comitted the crime and they had to pay for it. Suggesting that that is anti-human is...I won't go on.

Actually, SWM openly advocated that we submit to Council authority based on the fact that the Asari and Salarians got there first. Also, we did not violate any laws under which the Council had any authority to enforce upon us. We were not even aware of the Council before the Turians invaded one of our worlds. We were absorbed into the Council's authority without our consent.

We agreed to the Council conventions because the Turians would have conquered and functionally enslaved our species had we not. And when we ask for the Council to fulfil their oblication to aid in the defense of their associate members (Eden Prime), the Council said 'human problem, deal with it yourselves'. They got away with it because they were still the dominant powers.

Basically unsourced or simply incorrect BS.

--> The Council intervened to stop the conflict. It was the humans who decided to enter the galactic community, no one made them to.


--> Ascension clearly states that the Council races were involved in the Eden Prime War. Get your facts straight. They simply didn't launch an operation into the Terminus and instead sent Shepard after Saren.

Unsourced? The part about the Turians having enough military power to wipe out the Alliance if they had leveraged the full force of their fleet during the FCW? Nope, that is a historic fact. As for that forcing us to join the Citadel, our other choice was to slug it out with the Turians, which was not a pleasant prospect. We entered the council at the, almost literal, point of a gun.

Or do you mean the part where the Council refused to intervene until Tali provided incontrovertable evidence that Saren was involved in Eden prime? Nope, the council refused petitions from Udina to send the fleet into the Attican Traverse to protect Alliance colonies from the Geth. That is why we needed to track down Tali and get her evidence. We only gained their support once we were able to threaten their legitimacy by exposing one of their hand-picked Spectres as a traitor. "You don't get to made demands of the Council," ring a bell?

So, since my two major points are based in the facts of the game, please, point out how the are either unsourced BS or wrong.

[lovgreno]

Phaedon wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
Propaganda is just a tool. It is not inherently good or bad. What matter is the cause it is being used to advance.

Propaganda that kills people is not good.

Phaedon wrote...
Okay, but you didn't really answer my question. You just said "It's bad because people hurt."

How is that a given?

How is it a given that people get hurt in bloodsheds? Or why people getting hurt is a bad thing? Morally, I won't borther explaining, neurologically, because your brain is wired to develop empathy from a very young age.

As I said bloodshed can lead to greatness as well. The modern world was built on it. Sometimes it is your own recourse.

Maybe your world.
The world I live in was built by scientific advances, liberty, equality, unions, people waking up (You know, I'd say Martin Luther King might have had something to do with the fact that the US actually has a black president)

In my world, discriminating is a valid reason to get sued. And I am free to do whatever I want as long as I don't restrict anyone else's freedom without being afraid of someone restricting my own freedom.

I agree. Cooperation is what realy changes and improves things. Yes it means you have to swallow your precious pride and admit that your opinion is not a fact. But it does have results in stability and prosperity as it at least tries to give something to everyone instead of just to the self styled "elite".

In any case case it is more efficent than the tired old supremacist and elitist bullies that sometimes rise to the top to prove to themselves that they don't have small d****. Those old fashioned pipe dreams of empires and hubris just makes everyone gang up on you and so you end up with nothing in the end. To think that the human culture is more fitting to rule alien culture x than alien culture x is sounds like a set up for a spectacular self defeat when everyone gangs up on humanity. But then again it's not realy about helping humanity right? It's more about hubris. My race is the superiour race and all that inneficent old stuff. Are personal pride more important than human survival? I think not.

[Phaedon]

[quote]SandTrout wrote...
 What is wrong with me is a very clear undestanding of history. Cultures seek dominance to the best of their abilities. Those that do not end up dominated.[/quote]
You can attribute your sick beliefs of racial supremacy to cultural competition, but that won't make your idea hold any weight.

Even today allies seek political and cultural dominance, and it rarely has to do with violence, and it definitely has nothing to do with racism being good.

At the end of the day, you can keep justifying racial supremacy as a good motive for cultural competition, but you will still be the armchair racist with mean ideas about society while everyone else who lives by with, and due to equality make it perfectly fine.

[quote]Actually, SWM openly advocated that we submit to Council authority based on the fact that the Asari and Salarians got there first. Also, we did not violate any laws under which the Council had any authority to enforce upon us. We were not even aware of the Council before the Turians invaded one of our worlds. We were absorbed into the Council's authority without our consent.[/quote]
More unsourced BS.

Humanity, just like the volus and the elcor (and the batarians at the time), are Council races, they just don't hold a seat on the Council. It clearly says so in Ascension. That means that treaties were signed.

Humanity could have very well done what the Batarians did. Do you see the Batarians being in war with the Council? I don't think that they do.

And that's clearly not what Someone With Mass said. That's what you wish that you said. If you are incapable of keeping up with the treaties that you sign, then don't bother joining the galactic community.

[quote]
[quote]Unsourced? The part about the Turians having enough military power to wipe out the Alliance if they had leveraged the full force of their fleet during the FCW? Nope, that is a historic fact. As for that forcing us to join the Citadel, our other choice was to slug it out with the Turians, which was not a pleasant prospect. We entered the council at the, almost literal, point of a gun.[/quote]Uh, so you are basically admitting that you have no source on your claim whatsoever?

The Council intervened to stop the FCW, they saved our asses. Obviously we didn't join them later on, after the SA signed all the treaties and was accepted into the galactic community.

And I don't see any fleet wiping Terminus states or the Hegemony.


[quote]Or do you mean the part where the Council refused to intervene until Tali provided incontrovertable evidence that Saren was involved in Eden prime? Nope, the council refused petitions from Udina to send the fleet into the Attican Traverse to protect Alliance colonies from the Geth.[/quote]
Except that they:

• Refused to arrest Saren until they got what they thought was sufficient evidence.
• Refused to send fleets in the borders of the Terminus systems, so that no war was waged.
• Contributed in ending the Eden Prime War as said in Ascension.

[quote]That is why we needed to track down Tali and get her evidence. We only gained their support once we were able to threaten their legitimacy by exposing one of their hand-picked Spectres as a traitor. "You don't get to made demands of the Council," ring a bell?[/quote]
Uh, no.
You need to track down Tali to prove that Saren is guilty. They still won't send fleets to start a war with the Terminus because the Alliance went ahead and took the risk of expanding that far when in fact a single ground unit was protecting one of their major colonies.

"You don't get to make demands of the Council"?

In what twisted MEverse of yours where lore matches to your subjective opinion do you get to do that?

[quote]So, since my two major points are based in the facts of the game, please, point out how the are either unsourced BS or wrong.
[/quote]
...except that they are not. 

You openly declare that the source of the first one is the fact that the turian fleet could wipe out the Alliance, and you use that as a source that the Alliance was forced to enter the Council community.

The second one?
You are saying that the Council races didn't get involved in the Eden Prime war when they did, and you say that proving that Saren was a traitor had anything to do with it.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

laecraft wrote...

There's nothing wrong with supremacy. You don't want to end up like the quarians, scraping for survival. You don't want to end up like the krogan, barely clinging to existence, and so utterly lacking the future that you'd be throwing every waking moment of your life away.

Why wouldn't you want to secure a position of power for your children to grow up unhurt and unterrified? Why would anyone ever willingly settle for less?

Exactly this. The reason people settle for less for their own children is because liberalism is a mental disorder!

The krogan, the quarians, the vorcha, the batarians, the volus, the humans! We've seen what happens to species held down by the big three. We can't settle for that for humanity.

I'm not settling less for my own children. My own children will be asari.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

My own children will be asari.

LOL!

That's an oxymoron, darlin'. Asari children won't be your children, you filthy race-traitor.

To protect you from yourself all I can offer is that I'll pass legislation that prevents humans from ever being held legally or financially responsible for asari children. No DNA = no responsibility.

In that case, I won't have children and your line just doesn't apply to me. I win either way.