316 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Bad King wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

On topic:

Most likely the game
will be shoehorning everybody into hostilities with Cerberus through the
1st half of itself, at least. Partially because it will be TIM's
choice: to keep Shepard at distance, having planted a trusted agent
beside him (which has been hinted at, and I think that agent is Liara).

Towards the end of the game there will be an option to rejoin TIM.

Where has it been hinted at that Cerberus have planted a trusted agent beside Shepard?

In some gameplay trailer Shepard discusses with his squadmate of a certain fascist race, that Cerberus has arrived too fast on the scene and must have been tipped off.

[Phaedon]

Bad King wrote...
Just because Cerberus wants humanity to be the strongest species in the galaxy doesn't make them naz is.

Yeah, good luck ignoring what I just said. They don't just bet on the advancement of humanity, but the RIGHTFUL advancement of humanity.

And mind you, the latest non-vague reference to it happens when either the Alliance is the most prominent political figure in the Council, or when a full human council is established.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Seboist wrote...

No Cerberus allying = game becomes non-canon for me.

Oxymoron...

Not really.

And after the Awakening fiasco, I can't help but understand Sebo's sentiment.

[Wynne]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Major_Tao_Tau wrote...

( The Commander goes back to her private quarters... at the desk there is a framed photo of the Illusive Man....) 

Shepard:  ( looks at the photo )     "I wish i could quit you ! " 

*claps slowly*

Brilliant!

*joins in* Brilliant--you took the words right out of my fingers. (Get it? 'Cause I'm typing? *feels like she just branded the word "dork" on her forehead*) 

[didymos1120]

Phaedon wrote...

Bad King wrote...
Thing is though, when do Cerberus claim that they think that Rachni are inferior? From what I gathered in ME1, they initially seemed to think they were mindless but then realised (albeit when it was too late) that they were intelligent and admitted that they should have treated them like P.O.Ws.

Miranda, ME2.

No she doesn't:

Miranda: The husks were already dead, the Thorian creatures were mindless, and the rachni were abandoned once we understood their intelligence.

They didn't realize their capacity as individuals and thought they were just pliable drones.

[Someone With Mass]

didymos1120 wrote...

No she doesn't:

Miranda: The husks were already dead, the Thorian creatures were mindless, and the rachni were abandoned once we understood their intelligence.

They didn't realize their capacity as individuals and thought they were just pliable drones.

Ha. They became jealus of creatures that were smarter than them.

[Phaedon]

P. sure she openly admits "Wouldn't you rather have rachni fighting the Battle of the Citadel rather than humans?"

[Bad King]

Phaedon wrote...

Bad King wrote...
Just because Cerberus wants humanity to be the strongest species in the galaxy doesn't make them naz is.

Yeah, good luck ignoring what I just said. They don't just bet on the advancement of humanity, but the RIGHTFUL advancement of humanity.

Doesn't the fact that humanity are advancing at such a fast pace make it rightful that they should have a bigger say in galactic affairs?

Phaedon wrote...

Bad King wrote...
It's also an anti-capitalism and anti-communism movement. 

Nope.
The ideology promoted The Third Position, you can have the political
part without it. Just look at the ideology and how it appeared outside
of Germany.

And supremacism can exist without National Socialism.

Modifié par Bad King, 12 août 2011 - 09:12 .

[Bad King]

Phaedon wrote...

P. sure she openly admits "Wouldn't you rather have rachni fighting the Battle of the Citadel rather than humans?"

"...the rachni were abandoned once we understood their intelligence."

They expected them to be mindless and thus perfect shock troops then abandoned them once they realised how intelligent they were.

[Seboist]

Cerberus hasn't been shown to have any kind of NSDAP like racialist doctrine. If anyone does it's the the Asari with their wanting to strengthen their race by mating with others and labeling those who don't as "pure blood",which is the equivalent of being called a "race traitor" or "race mixer" by certain IRL groups.

[bleetman]

Bad King wrote...

They expected them to be mindless and thus perfect shock troops then abandoned them once they realised how intelligent they were.

Only because they couldn't control them.

"Oh, you're sentient? Go on, then! Be free!"

I think not, somehow.

[Phaedon]

Bad King wrote...
Doesn't the fact that humanity are advancing at such a fast pace make it rightful that they should have a bigger say in galactic affairs?

You do realize that he is talking about a "rightful" position over everyone else right?

He said so on Evolution too. And Ascension as well.

In the first case humanity is not exactly advancing, in the second they are already on the top, politically speaking at least.

Phaedon wrote...
And supremacism can exist without National Socialism. 

Simple ideological supremacism is Ethnocenterism/Ultranationalism. Add the bit about being rightfully but not incidentally superior and you get to the exact same political ideology.

It's different to claim that x race is worse because of y stereotype, and another to say that you as a race are destined to be superior than the others because yada yada. 

The first one is stupidity for the uneducated crowd, the other, unfortunately, tends to be accepted by more (supposedly) educated people.

[Phaedon]

Bad King wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

P. sure she openly admits "Wouldn't you rather have rachni fighting the Battle of the Citadel rather than humans?"

"...the rachni were abandoned once we understood their intelligence."

They expected them to be mindless and thus perfect shock troops then abandoned them once they realised how intelligent they were.

Pro-tip: They weren't abandoned because of their intelligence (well yes, they were, but not in the way Miranda wants you to believe), it was because Cerberus treated them like animals and they surprised them and escaped.

Replay ME1.

If anything, the fact that she still thinks that it would be better to have them die than humans make your argument a bit self-contradictive, but whatever.

Modifié par Phaedon, 12 août 2011 - 09:23 .

[Bad King]

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus hasn't been shown to have any kind of NSDAP like racialist doctrine. If anyone does it's the the Asari with their wanting to strengthen their race by mating with others and labeling those who don't as "pure blood",which is the equivalent of being called a "race traitor" or "race mixer" by certain IRL groups.

Yup. A lot of the NSDAPs racist policies (like the Nuremberg laws) were made to stop people of different ethnic groups from having kids.

Meanwhile TIM voluntarily did an Asari.

[Phaedon]

Are you two seriously suggesting that a single political party that happens to support that ideology at a later date of its foundation establishes some laws, and that by that way defines the ideology which they supported earlier on, which is also supported by other groups outside Germany?

EDIT:
And good job at starting a sh*tstorm by the rule of Godwin. That's exactly what I wanted to avoid. Now every idiot will pop up and cry about TIM not being the same with one person who supported that particular ideology.

Modifié par Phaedon, 12 août 2011 - 09:27 .

[lovgreno]

It would have been a interesting concept to have Failberus as a potential ally based on previous decisions. But perhaps that is too complicated from a programming and storytelling perspective.

In any case it's not certain that all of Failberus is hostile. It could be just one of those suspiciosly common rogue Failberus cells who turns against Shepard.

[Seboist]

Bad King wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus hasn't been shown to have any kind of NSDAP like racialist doctrine. If anyone does it's the the Asari with their wanting to strengthen their race by mating with others and labeling those who don't as "pure blood",which is the equivalent of being called a "race traitor" or "race mixer" by certain IRL groups.

Yup. A lot of the NSDAPs racist policies (like the Nuremberg laws) were made to stop people of different ethnic groups from having kids.

Meanwhile TIM voluntarily did an Asari.

TIM knows that our God Jubileus put the Asari in this universe for the pleasure of man.

[Phaedon]

lovgreno wrote...
In any case it's not certain that all of Failberus is hostile. It could be just one of those suspiciosly common rogue Failberus cells who turns against Shepard.

That's already directly contradicted by the descriptions of the two troops that point TIM as their leader, as well as the fact that their apparel is nothing like the Failberus suit in ME2.

Seboist wrote...
TIM knows that our God Jubileus put the Asari in this universe for the pleasure of man.

The Cerberus vibes. They are over the chart, Captain.

Modifié par Phaedon, 12 août 2011 - 09:32 .

[Bad King]

Phaedon wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

P. sure she openly admits "Wouldn't you rather have rachni fighting the Battle of the Citadel rather than humans?"

"...the rachni were abandoned once we understood their intelligence."

They expected them to be mindless and thus perfect shock troops then abandoned them once they realised how intelligent they were.

Pro-tip: They weren't abandoned because of their intelligence (well yes, they were, but not in the way Miranda wants you to believe), it was because Cerberus treated them like animals and they surprised them and escaped.

Replay ME1.

If anything, the fact that she still thinks that it would be better to have them die than humans make your argument a bit self-contradictive, but whatever.

Replay Mass Effect 1? Okay:

"We should have treated them like P.O.Ws." She admits that the rachni are too smart to be used- Cerberus were looking for mindless shock troopers and not an intelligent species.

And Miranda only advocated using rachni as troops because of the fact that she originally believed them to be less intelligent that they eventually realised. Also, rachni are generally more effective than humans in battle and would suffer far less casualties than humans would.

[Someone With Mass]

When a secret extreamist paramilitary organization is raising an army, I don't think they'll invite the rest of the galaxy to a tea party and cookies.

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

It would have been a interesting concept to have Failberus as a potential ally based on previous decisions. But perhaps that is too complicated from a programming and storytelling perspective.

Remember how folks from Bioware kept saying that ME3 would be the game where paths really diverged at last?

Remember how I said it was bull-****?

I was right.

We were both right my Cerberus blood brother. We're also being railoaded into curing the Krogans regardless of what we did with Wrex and the Genophage data(which was already hinted at being irrelevant even in ME2).

Real choices conflict with the "epic story" they want to tell, their schedule and wanting to create a prologue for a ME MMO and/or spin offs. Mark my words.

Modifié par Seboist, 12 août 2011 - 09:35 .

[Bad King]

Phaedon wrote...

Are you two seriously suggesting that a single political party that happens to support that ideology at a later date of its foundation establishes some laws, and that by that way defines the ideology which they supported earlier on, which is also supported by other groups outside Germany?

EDIT:
And good job at starting a sh*tstorm by the rule of Godwin. That's exactly what I wanted to avoid. Now every idiot will pop up and cry about TIM not being the same with one person who supported that particular ideology.

The only reason you describe TIM as a National Socialist is because it is associated with the attrocities committed by Germany in World War 2 and thus is a way of attacking Cerberus. Had Hitler never risen to power and those attrocities had never happened, you would probably have found another label to place on Cerberus.

In other words you started it!

[Zulu_DFA]

Someone With Mass wrote...

When a secret extreamist paramilitary organization is raising an army, I don't think they'll invite the rest of the galaxy to a tea party and cookies.

No. They are preparing to liberate the galaxy from the Asari-Turian fascism. Long live Chairman TIM!!!

[Phaedon]

Bad King wrote...
Replay Mass Effect 1? Okay:

"We should have treated them like P.O.Ws." She admits that the rachni are too smart to be used- Cerberus were looking for mindless shock troopers and not an intelligent species.

Umm...thanks for proving my point?

...

At what point does she say that they shouldn't have used them?
You do realize that that is a hundred times worse, right?

This is exactly what I have been saying. They would at no point not use them and have them killed like animals.

And Miranda only advocated using rachni as troops because of the fact that she originally believed them to be less intelligent that they eventually realised. Also, rachni are generally more effective than humans in battle and would suffer far less casualties than humans would.

First off, source on the effectiveness one? 
Pretty sure you can kill several of them with a single shot, unless you are implying that Cerberus would have the decency...not to sacrifice Workers to the grand "cause".

The rest doesn't make any source. She originally believed that?
At ME2, she explicitly suggests a scenario to Shepard where rachni would die instead of humans, and that that would be better somehow.