316 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaedon]

Uh. I have talked to racists and sexists. Some. I am pretty sure that they didn't think that women should stay in the kitchen or that the Albanians are inferior because it made them rich

[Someone With Mass]

marshalleck wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Guess what they also did. They bypassed the rules about AI research through loopholes and when they finally did break the rules, it was all their own fault to begin with.

No, they didn't.

O RLY?

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Geth_War

"Once the now-sentient geth realized what the quarians were doing, they retaliated. The geth soon overran the quarian homeworld, Rannoch, and the surviving quarians gathered their ships and fled the planet. They pleaded for help from the Citadel Council, but were denied aid and stripped of their embassy as punishment for creating an AI. The geth emerged victorious, costing the quarians billions of lives and the complete loss of their economy and way of life".

[Phaedon]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Propaganda is just a tool. It is not inherently good or bad. What matter is the cause it is being used to advance.

Propaganda that kills people is not good.

Phaedon wrote...
Okay, but you didn't really answer my question. You just said "It's bad because people hurt."

How is that a given?

How is it a given that people get hurt in bloodsheds? Or why people getting hurt is a bad thing? Morally, I won't borther explaining, neurologically, because your brain is wired to develop empathy from a very young age.

As I said bloodshed can lead to greatness as well. The modern world was built on it. Sometimes it is your own recourse.

Maybe your world.
The world I live in was built by scientific advances, liberty, equality, unions, people waking up (You know, I'd say Martin Luther King might have had something to do with the fact that the US actually has a black president)

In my world, discriminating is a valid reason to get sued. And I am free to do whatever I want as long as I don't restrict anyone else's freedom without being afraid of someone restricting my own freedom.

[marshalleck]

Someone With Mass wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Guess what they also did. They bypassed the rules about AI research through loopholes and when they finally did break the rules, it was all their own fault to begin with.

No, they didn't.

O RLY?

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Geth_War

"Once the now-sentient geth realized what the quarians were doing, they retaliated. The geth soon overran the quarian homeworld, Rannoch, and the surviving quarians gathered their ships and fled the planet. They pleaded for help from the Citadel Council, but were denied aid and stripped of their embassy as punishment for creating an AI. The geth emerged victorious, costing the quarians billions of lives and the complete loss of their economy and way of life".

I already posted a quote from the writer who created the geth. Go back and read it, or don't and remain ignorant. I don't really care. 

Yes, the quarians were punished for "creating" illegal AI. The creation of the geth was not intentional, and in fact their design was contrary to the conventional model for artificial intelligence. According to their design, the geth should have remained automatons. They did not. The geth were an accident.

Modifié par marshalleck, 13 août 2011 - 12:22 .

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...
I already posted a quote from the writer who created the geth. Go back and read it, or don't and remain ignorant. I don't really care. 

Yes, the quarians were punished for "creating" illegal AI. The creation of the geth was not intentional, and in fact their design was contrary to the conventional model for artificial intelligence. The geth were an accident.

Yes, Tali says that too.

I really don't care to defend the current Council, but if Tali is right, then there shouldn't be exactly be proof about the creation of sapient geth being an accident. That of course has to do on a moral level, on a legal level, the Quarians are required to be punished in any case.

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

on a legal level, the Quarians are required to be punished in any case.

Sins of the father, eh?

When is the punishment sufficient? None of the quarians alive now were responsible for the changes made to the geth with accidentally and incrementally over time induced a rise to sapience, and yet they have to live in suits aboard a migrant fleet, drifting from system to system scraping out whatever living the can. They're just as much victims as the original geth were.

Modifié par marshalleck, 13 août 2011 - 12:27 .

[Someone With Mass]

marshalleck wrote...
I already posted a quote from the writer who created the geth. Go back and read it, or don't and remain ignorant. I don't really care. 

Yes, the quarians were punished for "creating" illegal AI. The creation of the geth was not intentional, and in fact their design was contrary to the conventional model for artificial intelligence. According to their design, the geth should have remained automatons. They did not. The geth were an accident.

The geth were still their creation and their responsibility.

While I agree that the Council shutting the quarians out completely was a little harsh, you can't just create something and deny that you never had anything to do with it the second it doesn't fit you.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 13 août 2011 - 12:29 .

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...
Sins of the fathers, eh?

Didn't quite get the reference but anyway. The creation of the geth is a-okay, going on and making them sapient is a crime of the "current" generation. That Council seems to have made a tonne of mistakes and assumptions so I don't really care or want to defend it anyway.

[Kaiser Shepard]

It sure smells like Den of Delusions in here.

[Seboist]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

It sure smells like Den of Delusions in here.

Shameless plug of one's own thread. The nerve of some people.

[marshalleck]

I think both of you are failing to comprehend.

How to make a computer intelligent is a known quantity. There is a specific proven model known to work.

The geth do not follow that model. The geth, by design, never should have been able to achieve sapience. You're acting as though the quarians knowingly created a race of AI; they did not. The man responsible for writing the geth/quarian back story even tells you this. But I guess he must be wrong, doesn't have his facts straight.

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Sins of the fathers, eh?

Didn't quite get the reference but anyway. 

"And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”

The quarians alive today are being punished for a crime they had no hand in committing. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 13 août 2011 - 12:31 .

[Seboist]

The council are the ones to blame for the Geth not the Quarians. If it wasn't for their stupidity and refusal to help the Quarians wipe out the Geth we wouldn't be facing a lot of the trouble we do now.

[marshalleck]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

"And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”

The quarians alive today are being punished for a crime they had no hand in committing. 

No they're not.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Ekuna

First discovered by the quarians at the turn of the century, Ekuna[/b] is habitable but a second-tier choice for most species. Circling an orange sun, Ekuna averages below freezing temperatures. This led development firms to colonize at the planet's equator, where the climate is tolerable for agriculture. The quarians, seeking a homeworld of their own, petitioned the Citadel Council for the right to take over Ekuna, but they had already settled a few hundred thousand quarians on the planet before approaching the Council. Seeing this occupation as an illegal act, the Council turned a deaf ear to quarian pleas and gave the world to the elcor, who could withstand the high gravity of the world far better. The quarians squatting on the planet were given one galactic standard month to leave, at which point their colonies would be bombarded.

No?

Really, a species with no homeworld colonizing a second-rate habitable world which nobody else really wanted is threatened with orbital bombardment just because some had already begun settling a largely unsettled planet?

Modifié par marshalleck, 13 août 2011 - 12:37 .

[Seboist]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The council are the ones to blame for the Geth not the Quarians. If it wasn't for their stupidity and refusal to help the Quarians wipe out the Geth we wouldn't be facing a lot of the trouble we do now.

I disagree. If it wasn't for the quarians giving the geth the opportunity to become sapient, they wouldn't be in that mess.

It wasn't intentional,so that renders it moot. The council are to blame for Saren and Sovereign being able to get a ready army of Geth (and Krogan) to use against the galaxy.

[marshalleck]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Ekuna

First discovered by the quarians at the turn of the century, Ekuna[/b] is habitable but a second-tier choice for most species. Circling an orange sun, Ekuna averages below freezing temperatures. This led development firms to colonize at the planet's equator, where the climate is tolerable for agriculture. The quarians, seeking a homeworld of their own, petitioned the Citadel Council for the right to take over Ekuna, but they had already settled a few hundred thousand quarians on the planet before approaching the Council. Seeing this occupation as an illegal act, the Council turned a deaf ear to quarian pleas and gave the world to the elcor, who could withstand the high gravity of the world far better. The quarians squatting on the planet were given one galactic standard month to leave, at which point their colonies would be bombarded.

No?

Nope. The quarians broke the law by settling before asking.

That's pedantic bull****. The elcor have their homeworld and several colonies, and had no interest in Ekuna; the quarians had nothing.

It's pretty clearly a case of the Council intentionally knee-capping the quarians for no good reason other than they can.

Modifié par marshalleck, 13 août 2011 - 12:39 .

[Someone With Mass]

marshalleck wrote...

No?

Really, a species with no homeworld colonizing a second-rate habitable world which nobody else really wanted is threatened with orbital bombardment just because some had already begun settling a largely unsettled planet?

Yeah, that's a bit of a dick move.