19 réponses à ce sujet

[Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide]

The Dragon Age series has a fairly dark story and many morally ambiguous choices, and for the most part the Chantry fits in with this quite well; it's portrayal changes depending on the characters locations and who they are speaking to.

However, there is one thing that I don't understand, in a world where you can't really be sure of right or wrong the Chantry's beliefs are seemingly true. None of the other religions in the game are shown in a major light nor do they fit as well as the Chantry's in the game.

For example, all of what the Chantry says appears to be at least partly true. Sure Andraste may not have been exactly who they said she is but she clearly existed and the Gauntlet (seemingly set up hundreds of years ago) support the Chantry and her ashes are powerful magic at the very least. All this supports the Chantry's portrayal of Andraste's life.

Furthermore the creation of the Darkspawn, the origin of whom has been uncertain, has until recently been up for debate but now the new Legacy DLC has an incredibly old darkspawn who claims to be a Tevinter Magister and whom logic dictates that he was involved in the defiling of the Black City, again which clearly exists.

I think I rambled a bit there but my point is that in a game filled with uncertainty the Chantry's core beliefs at least seem strangely absolute and true.

[LobselVith8]

Oghren says that it's the wall of lyrium that's having an effect on the temple and the ashes, so we don't really know the truth behind the Guardian or the Urn of Sacred Ashes. As for Andraste, there's a book claiming that she was actually a powerful mage, so we don't know what the truth is.

As for Legacy, the Magister stated that Dumat claimed they would receive the powers of the Old Gods, but addresses that the Golden City was already black - so that discredits the Chantry's claim that the Magisters turned the Golden City black, as well as the claim that they tried to steal the Maker's power for themselves (since he doesn't even acknowledge whether or not he believes in the existance of the Andrastian Maker).

[whykikyouwhy]

I think the Chantry is meant to be the mostly-universal religion, and therefore, a good portion of the Thedas population we have encountered thus far either follow the teachings or know of them. That doesn't necessarily make their teachings true - just widely accepted, perhaps akin to Christianity in many countries of the real world (though I hesitate to make comparisons).

If anything, the illusory aspect to things within the DA universe may make the people of Thedas want to hold onto something they feel to be true. They may see the faith as the one solid foundation upon which to establish themselves.

[riveraeg]

There are a couple of things that we need to clarify.

1) We do know for certain that Andraste did exist. Now we don't really know what she looked like and also what she was. Some claims that she was a mage other a warrior. Chantry seems to go more towards the warrior, but in reality no one knows.

2) The ashes there are two possible options. You can believe that they are holy. (Like my warden) Or you can go more towards the notion that they are just ashes that has been resting with lyrium for hundreds of years. (More like my Hawke) Remember we don't know the full effects of Lyrium also Lyrium has a tendency of making people mad and hear things, so in that way the Idol (DA2) and the Temple might make people mad. (This is pure speculation on my part)

3) The Darkspawn, the Black City according to the chantry belonged to the maker and it was gold and pure. The magistrates tried to take the power and ended up being cast on the world as the first darkspawn. This is not the same in legacy for the reasons stated above.

a) The city was already black when they got there (it was never golden)
It appears that they came into the world after the first darkspawn, they were not the first darkspawn only the first to talk. (This is loosely based on my memory of the codex)
c) by the way he talked (Cornelyous) it appears that he did not know that dumat has been slain also like mentioned above he rarely acknowledges the maker.

The point is that there is no proof that he was one of the first darkspawns, remember the first darkspawns kicked everyone's rears until the Grey Wardens came. So we don't know if he was THE first. So believe what you want to.

I do think that like Wyne said the chantry does give as good explanation as any or that the evil in mens heart (foreshadowing of something worse) is the true source of evil (something like that)

On another note I see more the Chantry as similar to the Roman Catholic church of Medival Europe. Head of the church, templars, priest being the same sex as their prophet. 

Modifié par riveraeg, 12 août 2011 - 07:39 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

While there are a lot of things I expect to be kept ambiguous or unanswered, the origin of the darkspawn and their relationship (if any) to the Black City was something I thought we'd sometime see the truth about.

There are a lot of people who believe Corypheus implied the city was always black (although I'm not one of them) which would be contradictory to what the Chantry says.

However, even assuming that Corpypheus does confirm the basic story about the magisters tainting the Golden City and creating the darkspawn (which personally I'd imagine is the case for the most part), that doesn't necessarily mean that everything the Chantry believes in is also true because of it.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 12 août 2011 - 07:46 .

[Darius Vir]

riveraeg wrote...

c) by the way he talked (Cornelyous) it appears that he did not know that dumat has been slain also like mentioned above he rarely acknowledges the maker.

Just a minor point here.  I don't think Corypheus acknowledges the Maker...EVER.  He has several opportunities to do so.  The PC and Larius mention the Maker, and Cory does not sell it once. 

[Addai]

Why assume that everything the Chantry teaches is either completely, absolutely true, or complete falsehood? The likelihood is that there is some truth to it and some garbling or outright deception. Same goes for the elven and dwarven religions.

Corypheus doesn't corroborate the Chantry's teaching completely- he says the Golden City was already corrupted when "they" found it, whoever they are, and that he was dismayed by this fact.  You could interpret that to mean that it was always corrupted.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 août 2011 - 08:45 .

[Gespenst]

riveraeg wrote...

2) The ashes there are two possible options. You can believe that they are holy. (Like my warden) Or you can go more towards the notion that they are just ashes that has been resting with lyrium for hundreds of years. (More like my Hawke) Remember we don't know the full effects of Lyrium also Lyrium has a tendency of making people mad and hear things, so in that way the Idol (DA2) and the Temple might make people mad. (This is pure speculation on my part

Why would that happen? Lyrium doesn't cure people it kills them. Why would it make someone's ashes a panacea?

Lyrium does have an effect on the mind but not that kind of effect - and usually after prolonged exposure and the effects are permanent.

Now if there was a little Lyrium in Haven's water supply that might explain a few things...

The Gauntlet pretty much settled - in my mind that the chantry was telling the truth or at least its basis was true (how it interpreted some of its scripture is of debatable merit - the way they interpreted "Magic was made to server man, never to rule over him" and their justification for the ban on blood magic is pretty flimsy).

And about Corypheus: He said that when they got to the golden city it was black, he never said that it was always black. I took that to mean that as soon as they got there it was instantly corrupted. Although it's interesting that he didn't mention the maker. No one really worshiped him back then so maybe he only knew what the old gods had told him (he was promised the power of the gods themselves!)? I suppose that could mean that it was always black and the old gods wanted them to go their for reasons of their own. But that makes things a little messy. For one thing it means that the dark ritual from DA:O was a terrible idea.

Modifié par Gespenst, 12 août 2011 - 09:54 .

[riveraeg]

Gespenst wrote...

riveraeg wrote...

2) The ashes there are two possible options. You can believe that they are holy. (Like my warden) Or you can go more towards the notion that they are just ashes that has been resting with lyrium for hundreds of years. (More like my Hawke) Remember we don't know the full effects of Lyrium also Lyrium has a tendency of making people mad and hear things, so in that way the Idol (DA2) and the Temple might make people mad. (This is pure speculation on my part

Why would that happen? Lyrium doesn't cure people it kills them. Why would it make someone's ashes a panacea?

Lyrium does have an effect on the mind but not that kind of effect - and usually after prolonged exposure and the effects are permanent.

Now if there was a little Lyrium in Haven's water supply that might explain a few things...

The Gauntlet pretty much settled - in my mind that the chantry was telling the truth or at least its basis was true (how it interpreted some of its scripture is of debatable merit - the way they interpreted "Magic was made to server man, never to rule over him" and their justification for the ban on blood magic is pretty flimsy).

And about Corypheus: He said that when they got to the golden city it was black, he never said that it was always black. I took that to mean that as soon as they got there it was instantly corrupted. Although it's interesting that he didn't mention the maker. No one really worshiped him back then so maybe he only knew what the old gods had told him (he was promised the power of the gods themselves!)? I suppose that could mean that it was always black and the old gods wanted them to go their for reasons of their own. But that makes things a little messy. For one thing it means that the dark ritual from DA:O was a terrible idea.

I agree with some of your points but they are things that I wish to clarify.  The idol which is made out of Lyrium had a strong effect in making people crazy.  Why?  We honestly don't know is a mystery.  But in all honesty haven was a little crazy. 

Also I admit the ashes is speculation in my part, but it does not mean that it has to be that the ashes are holy and blessed by the maker.  I am pointing out the fact that it might be that the veil is also weak in the cavern.  The lyrium is one theory.  Weak veil plus lyrium who knows?  Sadly I don't have any lyrium to give you a scientific explanation.

Corypheous said that the city was black, not that he contaminated the city.  I think the dark ritual was a great idea, also with leliana the writers already determined that our choices might not matter on certain things.

I might be crazy but please listen to this wild theory

My one theory is that a combination of all the religions are correct.  Remember on the elven religion the black wolf tricked the gods and sealed them.  (what if those gods are the old gods of the tevinter.)  The god wanted to be freed.

The Golden City or the Black City is a place where the power of the Maker (dread Wolf?) has the ability to open the portal of the gods.  However, instead of getting the power that they wanted the reality was that the power was to unlock the gods. 

Hence the chantry is right here.  Andraste is a profet of the Maker (the other side of the elven religion).  So the maker and Old Gods are at war with one another.  They use us as pawns.  The Dread Wolf could be flemeth as she does not believe in old gods or talk about the maker or the chantry. 

When the Tevinter Imperium came into the Black City they brought the darkspawn (opened the gates for the old gods to return) something that the Maker and/or Dread Wolf stoped. 

[dragonflight288]

Oghren: This mountain is chalk full of lyrium. Can't mistake that tingle. Is it the ashes that are magical or the mountain?

later after finding the Ashes

Oghren: The walls are so full of lyrium, they may have affected the ashes.

[riveraeg]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Oghren: This mountain is chalk full of lyrium. Can't mistake that tingle. Is it the ashes that are magical or the mountain?

later after finding the Ashes

Oghren: The walls are so full of lyrium, they may have affected the ashes.

Thanks for that.

[dragonflight288]

No problem. *my avatar looks at surfacers* Where is your stone sense?

[Gespenst]

riveraeg wrote...

Corypheous said that the city was black, not that he contaminated the city.  I think the dark ritual was a great idea, also with leliana the writers already determined that our choices might not matter on certain things.

DA:O, DA2:L SPOILERS

Yeah but he doesn't know that he contaminated the city - he seems to have lost all his memories between being kicked out of heaven and waking up in the tower (1000 years of sleep will do that to a guy) it was only figured out after the fact.

The dark ritual was supposed to cleans the old god's soul of the darkspawn taint and put it in the body of Morigan's child. It looks like going to the golden city was all their idea (Hey, Cory, it's me Dumat. If you can break into god's house I can give you all the power in the world! Call me back when you get this message!) If that's what they did before they were tainted...

[Sepewrath]

I definitely think Cory was saying the city was black when they got there, but whether that part is true or not, they went there upon an invitation from "Dumat" not to usurp the Maker, something they didn't even believe in. So the Chantry's account already has holes in it and I myself doubt, the origins of the Darkspawn, stem from the Magister's entering the city.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Oghren says that it's the wall of lyrium that's having an effect on the temple and the ashes, so we don't really know the truth behind the Guardian or the Urn of Sacred Ashes. As for Andraste, there's a book claiming that she was actually a powerful mage, so we don't know what the truth is.

As for Legacy, the Magister stated that Dumat claimed they would receive the powers of the Old Gods, but addresses that the Golden City was already black - so that discredits the Chantry's claim that the Magisters turned the Golden City black, as well as the claim that they tried to steal the Maker's power for themselves (since he doesn't even acknowledge whether or not he believes in the existance of the Andrastian Maker).

All those things dont throw their teachings at the window however, they just shed a slightly different light on the subject matter, I mean after a millenium alot of those things still hold to some degree true which is actually quite remarkable really considering I got the impression their greatest scholars were idiots like genetivi. But even in extremely dark times where an unknown and very powerful enemy was destroying all life and it was believed to be the end of the world (First blight) the Cult of Andraste still seems to have gathered a great deal of information and held onto it for their dogma even though its not quite the truth but close to it.

The old gods imprisoned underground, the first magisters trying to enter heaven both these true.. The Magisters at least thought they were entering heaven even if it may not have been it. - The fact that the cult of andraste obtained and held on to so much info is quite impressive.. especially considering their core membership were barbarians. I wonder where they got all this info from then, the things they weren't around to witness. Their Tevinter converts methinks

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Corypheus seems to be either senile or enormously disoriented by his centuries of sleep. He doesn't seem to know what was going on or where he was or why. He was captured after the First Blight ended but didn't seem to remember anything about it.The more I listen to his words though, the more I think he was saying that the city was black ever since his visit, not that it was black to begin with.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 août 2011 - 01:42 .

[Gervaise]

1) Corypheus doesn't mention the Maker because the old story says that men in his time had forgotten the Maker - he was not important to them and likely not even a memory, they worshipped the old dragon gods.
2) What Corypheus and his buddies were seeking was immortality - the dragon gods didn't die of old age, they had to be imprisoned. They also do not appear to die when killed but can transfer to another host. In a way Corypheus does seem to have acquired ability to do this (it is implied), so his sojourn into the Fade was not entirely without success.
3) The Maker made the First Children in his image. The first children were the spirits of the Fade. Therefore it follows that the Maker must be some form of powerful spirit that can alter reality. The dragon gods are also earthly in dwelling of powerful spirits - they should not even be there but in the Fade - so their existence contravenes a basic law of creation - hence their imprisonment.
5) The elven gods were also spirits of the Fade that spoke to the elves and gave them their immortality through entering the physical in some way. Whilst they were beneficient spirits and did no harm, the magic that imprisoned the old gods strengthend the Veil and prevented their communication with the elves.
4) The Maker had done this (allegedly) and the old gods encouraged the Magisters to assault heaven because they were hoping this would bring about their freedom. Ultimately it did but not in the way that was intended.
5) The Fade is meant to be an everychanging place and defied the Magister's attempt to map it, so even if they thought they were going to enter the Golden City, the Maker could have altered their final destination. The Chants is a rather florid poetic description of this.
6) The Maker has removed itself to a part of the Fade where even Dreamers cannot enter. The Maker is a spirit like others, that respond to the emotions of the physical world, but because of the nature of what it is, is ultra sensitive and therefore deeply affected. It removed itself as far as possible from the effects of the physical world because of the pain it caused. The song of Andraste reminded the spirit that there was still hope for its physical creations and so it spoke to her - this would seem to bear out that at the very least she was a mage, if not an actual dreamer.
7) If all the world accepts the principles of the Chant of Light, the Maker spirit will return and start to interact properly again - outcome unknown.
8) Flemeth knows a lot more than she has revealed but exactly who she is is open to question. Whilst the actual woman Flemeth existed in time, the spirit within is ancient and self perpetuating in physical form by the soul jump method. Whether that makes her an old god, elf god or something completely different will no doubt be made clear eventually.
Just some thoughts on the matter.

[Ausstig]

Something HAS to true why not the Chantry?

[Reznore57]

I never doubt Andraste Lives , or magisters enter the golden city.The chantry is right about some event , doesn't mean it holds the absolute truth.The chantry is mostly about human history.
I doubt the darspawns are a result of just human stupidity.
The tainted Eluvian?
The dwarves are the first victims of darspawn now , and they don't hold an eternal grudge against humanity and mages?They just turn away from religion and made themselves paragon.
I think there are pieces of history missing

Modifié par Reznore57, 13 août 2011 - 10:50 .

[Rifneno]

Ausstig wrote...

Something HAS to true why not the Chantry?

1) Something, yes. Someone, no. Especially since the Chantry is the only ones pretending to have an answer to a lot of questions (the source of the taint, the Black City, ect.). If someone asks what 2+2 is, and the only person that answers says "Blue", does that mean he's right?
2) Because they're evil.