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Rogue archer build (synergy of talents and specialization features).


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#1
OswaldCash

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I'm planning to play Rogue and go archer combat oriented build, so i wanted to discuss it, and also ask, if somebody has any info, whether or not  will certain features work on ranged combat? Particularly - 

a)Lethality's cunning bonus (instead of strength) to damage. Afaik, by default ranged (bow) damage is influenced by Dex and Str, so would it be possible to make it Dex and Cun instead via this talent? Also, will the passive +crit bonus from this talent apply to ranged combat?
b)Assasin's specialization +critical chance bonuses? Assasin's skills are melee oriented, but i wonder if it would be possible to enjoy passive bonuses in ranged mode too?
c)Will certain abilities require melee weapon equiped? F.e. Dirty Fighting is a melee ability, but can i use it in melee, while having a bow equiped (given that there is a talent that allows you use bows in melee w/o penalties - Melee Archer). Other talents that i'm interested are Below the Belt and assasin's Mark of Death.

My plan on the build is a rogue archer, specializing in damage dealing and (secondary) crowd control. For that we max archery talents, but also take 3 talents from rogue tree (Below the Belt -> Deadly Strike -> Lethality) + 1 (Dirty Fighting) is given for free at start. Specialization-wise we choose Assasin for passive bonuses, and 1 skill (Mark of Death), we dont take further skills from this tree, cuz they are backstab-oriented, and our rogue is not going to stab.

This all will require 16 talent points (12 in Archery tree, 3 in Rogue, 1 in Assasin), that is 15 level (you get 2 at level 1 and 1 point for each next level), which leaves us 5 more free talents points that we can use on whatever we want (be it rogue abilities, like Deft Hands, Stealth f.e.), or 2nd specialization (Bard or Ranger sounds fun for this build) tree. We also have an option to take the 4th talent in our Rogue tree - Evasion (since we have all prerequisites). 

That gives us decent damage (all Archery talents, +crit from Lethality, +crit from Assasin specialization) and many, many crowd-control (stun and/or debuff) abilities, namely - Dirty Fighting (Stun), Below the Belt (defense debuff), Pinning Shot (stun/slow), Shattering Shot (armor debuff), Supressive Fire (offense debuff), Scattershot (Stun). 

Attributes-wise we ofcourse max Dex, since its required for both Archery talents and Lethality, and gives us ranged damage, attack speed and so on. Other interesting attributes can be  

a)Cunning, which works great with our Lethality (assuming that it works with ranged weapons), and allows us better use of rogue talents (lockpick, steal etc), AND bonuses to Coercion skill (which is important to me, personally, from the role-play point of view).

b)Strength. It gives same dmg bonus as Cunning, and allows us to wear better equipment (read - heavy armor). Thus, we can put on heavy armor, take an Evasion feat (remember - we have all prereqs), that will kinda turn us in a semi-tank (with a bow, lol). Since we are getting Master Archer talent, we wont have penalties from wearing heavy armor.

c)Willpower. It gives us stamina, and since we have LOTS of active abilities we can use, extra stamina can be very welcome. Though we dont yet know, how much stamina will you need to use abilities reasonably freely. 

d)Possibly Const, since we might find ourselves in melee sometimes. Though if we aren't going heavy-armor/evasion semi-tank build, we wont need much HP - we can close in, stun, and then run back and go on shooting. Again, we yet to have discovered, how dangerous will playing this build be (in terms of aggroing mobs), but we have several stuns and movespeed debuffs to try to stay out of the monster's reach.

Modifié par OswaldCash, 31 octobre 2009 - 09:11 .


#2
JMOR

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Assuming Duelist isn't melee weapon exclusive it might be pretty good for archers, lots of attack+ and defence+ talents as well as guaranteed crits for a certain amount of time.

#3
OswaldCash

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JMOR wrote...

Assuming Duelist isn't melee weapon exclusive it might be pretty good for archers, lots of attack+ and defence+ talents as well as guaranteed crits for a certain amount of time.


From the logic point of view, i expect the Duelist to be melee-specializied, and the Guide specifically refers to his last ability, as "Your top melee talent, Pinpoint Strike, converts all hits into critical strikes for a moderate duration".

If his other 3 abilities do work in ranged (which i doubt), he would indeed be a good choice (though Assasin's passive bonuses seem better, and the Mark of Death fits well as a debuff. But he would be a sure 2nd specialization choice then). 3rd ability from the tree is not very promising, unless you wanna tank, but 1st and 2nd can come in handy.

If his last ability (Pinpoint) turns out to work in ranged too, he will be even more awesome ofc. But i think it's not very likely. 

#4
daem3an

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OswaldCash wrote...
My plan on the build is a rogue archer, specializing in damage dealing and (secondary) crowd control. For that we max archery talents, but also take 3 talents from rogue tree (Below the Belt -> Deadly Strike -> Lethality) + 1 (Dirty Fighting) is given for free at start. Specialization-wise we choose Assasin for passive bonuses, and 1 skill (Mark of Death), we dont take further skills from this tree, cuz they are backstab-oriented, and our rogue is not going to stab.

Just a quick point here - early reports are saying you can indeed backstab with a ranged weapon, and I'm hoping it also applies to the Lethality bonuses. That might affect your choices.

Modifié par daem3an, 31 octobre 2009 - 09:27 .


#5
DeathFrogg

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Alot of what you're assuming / wanting to you wan't be known untill people have the game and are willing to stop playing it to answer rofl. Like - will rogue critical skills work in range. I sure hope they will

#6
daem3an

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DeathFrogg wrote...

Alot of what you're assuming / wanting to you wan't be known untill people have the game and are willing to stop playing it to answer rofl. Like - will rogue critical skills work in range. I sure hope they will

Indeed.

sadromeo1 wrote...
You can backstab using a bow.

link to thread

Modifié par daem3an, 31 octobre 2009 - 09:36 .


#7
telephasic

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All of the duelist talents require melee, although the specialization might be worth it just for the starting bonus.



BTW, it's not true you'll be able to wear heavy armor with "more strength" In fact, you need at least 20 strength to wear the best leather armor by the end of the game. Pumping strength beyond this for any ranged character (unless they use a crossbow, since they have strength, not dex requirements) is useless.

#8
OswaldCash

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daem3an wrote...
Just a quick point here - early reports are saying you can indeed backstab with a ranged weapon, and I'm hoping it also applies to the Lethality bonuses. That might affect your choices.


Yep, that changes a lot. Thanks :).

DeathFrogg wrote...

Alot of what you're assuming / wanting to you wan't be known untill people have the game and are willing to stop playing it to answer rofl. Like - will rogue critical skills work in range. I sure hope they will


There are plenty of people who had already played the game. Also, there are people who can understand game's code (huge parts of which are available at modders' Wiki, including many references to mechanics). 

telephasic wrote...

All of the duelist talents require melee, although the specialization might be worth it just for the starting bonus.

I think assasin's starting bonus is much better, and other specs have decent skills. Do you know, if assasin's mark of Death and rogue's Dirty Fighting and Below the Belt are possible with a bow equiped? 

BTW, it's not true you'll be able to wear heavy armor with "more strength" In fact, you need at least 20 strength to wear the best leather armor by the end of the game. Pumping strength beyond this for any ranged character (unless they use a crossbow, since they have strength, not dex requirements) is useless.


Do you mean there is no way a rogue could equip heavy armor? Strange, i thought i've read many times that anyone could wear any armor, even mages - all you need is enough strength. 

Modifié par OswaldCash, 31 octobre 2009 - 09:53 .


#9
telephasic

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OswaldCash wrote...
Do you mean there is no way a rogue could equip heavy armor? Strange, i thought i've read many times that anyone could wear any armor, even mages - all you need is enough strength. 


I mean it will take an extra 14 attribute points spent towards strength to wear the best medium armor (as opposed to the best leather armor) by the end game.  Considering you'll have around 70 attribute points to spend over the course of the game, using 20% just to get medium armor (okay, and a little improvement to ranged damage) seems wasteful compared to other builds.  And it only gets worse if you want to wear heavier armors. 

#10
OswaldCash

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telephasic wrote...

OswaldCash wrote...
Do you mean there is no way a rogue could equip heavy armor? Strange, i thought i've read many times that anyone could wear any armor, even mages - all you need is enough strength. 


I mean it will take an extra 14 attribute points spent towards strength to wear the best medium armor (as opposed to the best leather armor) by the end game.  Considering you'll have around 70 attribute points to spend over the course of the game, using 20% just to get medium armor (okay, and a little improvement to ranged damage) seems wasteful compared to other builds.  And it only gets worse if you want to wear heavier armors. 


Ok i get it :). And how much does strength contribute to ranged damage, as compared to dexterity? The best archery talents require 30 Dex, it will also be enough to get other rogue talents (like lethality etc). Afaik, strength and dexterity both contribute to HitChance in melee, i would expect ranged HitChance to depend solely on Dex. 

#11
daem3an

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We should have a lot of attribute points when you include bonuses.
This character has 159 points at level 22: Chris Priestly's level 22 dwarf rogue

Modifié par daem3an, 31 octobre 2009 - 10:32 .


#12
OswaldCash

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He also has lvl 22, while i thought lvl cap was set at 20. Further levels might unlock with addons/DLC though..

#13
SirFred

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OswaldCash wrote...

He also has lvl 22, while i thought lvl cap was set at 20. Further levels might unlock with addons/DLC though..


There is no level cap.

#14
OswaldCash

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SirFred wrote...

OswaldCash wrote...

He also has lvl 22, while i thought lvl cap was set at 20. Further levels might unlock with addons/DLC though..


There is no level cap.


WHAAAT? Most joyous news :). Foolish Player's Guide trying to trick me with having all builds for 20 lvl ^_^.

Btw, it also says "Points are precious, so spend them wisely. Don’t be caught with a level 20 warrior who has only the first couple of abilities in many chains. His or her contribution to the party will be limited and you don’t get a second chance at spending these points."

Is there any source where i can read about absence of the level cap? 

Modifié par OswaldCash, 31 octobre 2009 - 11:06 .


#15
daem3an

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Sure: Level cap discussions.

#16
OswaldCash

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Ok, so if i can backstab with bows, does the Coup de Grace work with it as well? Stun + shoot.

#17
telephasic

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daem3an wrote...

We should have a lot of attribute points when you include bonuses.
This character has 159 points at level 22: Chris Priestly's level 22 dwarf rogue


That's only 14 more than we would have expected at level 22 assuming the five points at character creation and three each level.  I don't think anyone has explained why yet - could be the effect of tomes.  

#18
Astalder

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Wanted to get some second opinions on this build for a Ranger, now that I know about ranged backstab capability I've given up Master Stealth for some other stealth talents. Seems like it'd be a great combo if I make sure other party members have incapacitate/stun capabilities. Any of you see any glaring holes or things to know that I've totally missed? I'd appreciate your opinion before I kick things off Tuesday. I'm going for the lvl 20 trophy which means I'll probably end up at least lvl 22.  I suppose if the Assassin skills that use backstab are melee only the tree's a bit of a waste.

3 attribute points per lvl 2-22.
1 skill point per lvl 2-22.
1 talent point per lvl 2-22.

Strength: 20 by lvl 10 (req for best leather).
Dexterity: 34 by lvl 17 (req for best longbow).
Willpower: 24 by lvl 22 (stamina).
Magic: 20 by lvl 20 (for potions).
Cunning: 20 by lvl 14 (only 16 req for coercion)
Constitution: 24 by lvl 22 (health).

Dirty Fighting at lvl 0, Combat Movement at lvl 6, Coup De Grace at lvl 12.
Stealth at lvl 18.
Archery: Fully trained by lvl 17.
Ranger: Fully trained by lvl 21.
Assassin: Fully trained by lvl 22.

Coercion: Fully trained by lvl 6 (a personal compromise required for my primary character).
Trap Making: Fully trained by lvl 14.
Survival: Fully trained by lvl 13.
Poison Making: Fully trained by lvl 18.
Combat Training: Fully trained by lvl 15.
Combat Tactics: Fully trained by lvl 22.

Modifié par Astalder, 01 novembre 2009 - 01:10 .


#19
Owlkapwn

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keep in mind that the cap is 25 and if u want to do a 2nd play thru plan far head. now as far as talent points go u get a bit more then u think. u get 2 at the start then 1 per lvl then one from ducan and then 1 from the book. so in total u have 4=24=28 thats enough to fill 2 class skill tree IE rouge skills or the warrior skills (cept for mage they only have 1 class skill tree) all of the class type IE shiled, archery or wot ever :P (even the mage with its 12 skills per tree) so plan ahead. if backstab does indeed work with ranged weps im going for stealth insted of feing death. Im filling in all of the archery talents and pickng up ranger and bard (bard has good buffs) or i may just go for a ranged assassian build if back stab wroks with ranged. but keep in mind that u have enough points to spend on 7 full trees.






#20
XxOmer07xX

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lvl 18

str 32

dex 46

will 20

cun 32



con 18 (13)

#21
phinneas

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OswaldCash wrote...

Strength. It gives same dmg bonus as Cunning, and allows us to wear better equipment (read - heavy armor). Thus, we can put on heavy armor, take an Evasion feat (remember - we have all prereqs), that will kinda turn us in a semi-tank (with a bow, lol). Since we are getting Master Archer talent, we wont have penalties from wearing heavy armor.

c)Willpower. It gives us stamina, and since we have LOTS of active abilities we can use, extra stamina can be very welcome. Though we dont yet know, how much stamina will you need to use abilities reasonably freely. 

d)Possibly Const, since we might find ourselves in melee sometimes. Though if we aren't going heavy-armor/evasion semi-tank build, we wont need much HP - we can close in, stun, and then run back and go on shooting. Again, we yet to have discovered, how dangerous will playing this build be (in terms of aggroing mobs), but we have several stuns and movespeed debuffs to try to stay out of the monster's reach.

 
Cunning with lethality negates the whole str issue, just hit 20-22 str (depending on later armor choice) and concentrate on cun and dex.  Cunning also far more important for a rogue, I mean you are a sneaky and cunning critter, right?  With the bonus dex, + armor, etc... from the top light armors, you shouldn't be getting hit in the first place in order to worry about wearing heavier armor.  Bard spec is a must for a rogue archer in my opinion as SOC or 2 SOC if you have Lelianna with you (3/w  stack and really add up by mid game.  For the second spec, its up to you as Assassin adds to dex and crit if I'm not mistaken but for an archer, you only need it for the first box.  I've played ranger but to be honest, the animal was as much a hinderance as it was helpful for my playstyle.  There are times it does come in handy (especially if you have a blood mage in the party) but more often than not, I just didn't need it.  Duelist spec I believe adds attack and while it is intended for duel wield mele, the bonuses help early to mid game but later on your dex/cun should be high that you won't notice it.  

The biggest issue with archers in Origins was their loose speed as up until you score a few key pieces of gear, it seems like it takes forever to loose an arrow and you watch as the rest of your party hack away.  By mid to late game the archer comes around and should be able to one hit most mages without AOS and taking out whites with 1-2  shots depnding on party make up.  Scattershot will be used probably a whole lot more than AOS so inmo, I would take that line second as opening up with it on a mob makes the start of the battle on your terms, just be warned that scattershot draws huge aggro, so be sure to either stealth to remove aggro (stealth inmo was a must have inmo) or have your tank use taunt after the critters come at you. Unlike some of the more hard core min/max folks, I enjoy a more relaxed play style, it is a game after all, and I opted for a bit more dex than those who go hard cunning route and I rarely got hit.  For an archer, specific equipment is absolutely key, otherwise this build would be quite underwhelming. 

Having played the rogue archer through two play throughs, the first being a dismal failure from my lack of understanding how cun, dex, and wil balance in order to give good attack and defense, armor penatration and damage, and enough wil to toss out scattershot or the occasional AOS on a nasty mage.   There is a guide floating around called something like "Archery: An efficent approach" that is extremely useful and I recommend it, especially if you plan on playing Awakening later.  Whatever type of archer someone builds in Origins, it takes time for the build to come around and for some it will probably seem a bit boorish, but if you play Awakening, the archer is a one shot god and its like using a chainsaw on a mob of jello critters, its that mean.   Having also played this game as a mage, warrior, dw and archer rogue, I've found that an archer is probably one of the more challenging roles to play as it takes time and patience to develop.

#22
CerealWar

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As a rogue, you don't really need to put any points into strength. As a human noble, you start out with 11 strength. You can get 4 more strength from the Essence of Strength fonts in the Fade (Broken Circle). The Harvest Rings gives you 2 strength. Ring of the Warrior (which I believe you can get from Oghren) gives you another 2. This should allow you to equip the Barbarian Mace which should boost you up to 20 (it has a +1 bonus to Strength).



So what do we have now? 11+4+2+2+1= 20



You can now equip the Helm of Honneleath. If you want to be a jerk and kill Witherfang, that'll get you an amulet with another +1 strength. Now we have 23 strength. Equip Shadow of the Empire to get 25. Now you can equip the lowest tiered Duncan's Sword (redsteel requires 25 strength). Duncan's Sword + Dead Thaig Shanker = +9 Cunning.



As you get into Awakening, you'll find that there is some very nice dexterity gear that have high strength requirements. As a rogue, you can work around this by speccing into Legionaire Scout and getting the first talent which gives you +10 to Dexterity and Strength. This passive buff, along with a light shield with the Legion of the Dead heraldry (which gives +20 to all stats) will allow you to equip any item with a high strength requirement.



http://dragonage.wik...icient_Approach



This person is a genius.

#23
DoomBlackDragon

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SirFred wrote...

OswaldCash wrote...

He also has lvl 22, while i thought lvl cap was set at 20. Further levels might unlock with addons/DLC though..


There is no level cap.



Wrong. Level cap is 25 for DAO. 35 in DAOA. You have to complete about 95% of the game to hit level cap but it is possible. special in harder game modes. Where your be fighting an extra 2 - 5 mobs each incounter.

#24
Sathirill

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OswaldCash wrote...

SirFred wrote...

OswaldCash wrote...

He also has lvl 22, while i thought lvl cap was set at 20. Further levels might unlock with addons/DLC though..


There is no level cap.


WHAAAT? Most joyous news :). Foolish Player's Guide trying to trick me with having all builds for 20 lvl ^_^.

Btw, it also says "Points are precious, so spend them wisely. Don’t be caught with a level 20 warrior who has only the first couple of abilities in many chains. His or her contribution to the party will be limited and you don’t get a second chance at spending these points."

Is there any source where i can read about absence of the level cap? 



the level cap is 25 i got there with an exp glitch

#25
TheBigMatt90

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Well congratulations, you are correcting posts that are a year old. Lol.