322 réponses à ce sujet

[Gervaise]

Was just watching the exchange with Sister Nightingale with Anders' present and when she says "If Kirkwall falls to magic, none of us is safe," his comment: "None of you."   Was that just directed at members of the Chantry or did it have a deeper meaning - like none of you non-mages?  Either way I found it rather chilling, particularly when I recall his comment "Justice is hard, justice is cold."   He clearly has forgotten that Sister Nightingale also help stopped the Blight in Ferelden and was good friends with the two mages he keeps banging on about.   No wonder he didn't care about any of the lay brothers and sisters in the chantry who also died alongside the Grand Cleric and the Templars there, not to mention any ordinary citizens who happened to be there at the time. 

To be honest, of all the mages we encounter in DA2, I find him by far and away the most scary, because he seems so nice and normal (when Justice is quiet) but underlying I sense this hard, cold, callous, utterly ruthless being - which the writers only allow to surface occasionally.  In fact I definitely would say he gives Meredith a good run for her money.   Why oh why are we not allowed to act on our instincts where he is concerned?

[Xilizhra]

Leliana betrayed my Warden and everything she stood for. Whatever Anders says here, I have no issues with.

[Ryzaki]

I really don't know why Hawke's not allowed to report Anders to the templars other than the railroad plot. I mean...he can kill an innocent girl and Hawke can't report him? Huh...

And I'm not gonna start on the idiocy that is reporting him to Cullen after his Justice quest. Talk about holding the idiot ball. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 août 2011 - 08:24 .

[Erani]

Xilizhra wrote...

Leliana betrayed my Warden and everything she stood for. Whatever Anders says here, I have no issues with.

Seriously this. 

Choice and consequence...what's that?/sarcasm off 

[Eveangaline]

I think he was honestly mostly angry about Leliana talking like only non-mages deserve to be safe. And that's why he said that all pissily.

Modifié par Eveangaline, 12 août 2011 - 08:36 .

[Melca36]

Xilizhra wrote...

Leliana betrayed my Warden and everything she stood for. Whatever Anders says here, I have no issues with.

My Warden was best friends with Leliana. 
She would sever her ties with Leliana for becoming a  RELIGIOUS NUT JOB.

[Sinaxi]

Gervaise wrote...

Was just watching the exchange with Sister Nightingale with Anders' present and when she says "If Kirkwall falls to magic, none of us is safe," his comment: "None of you."   Was that just directed at members of the Chantry or did it have a deeper meaning - like none of you non-mages?  Either way I found it rather chilling, particularly when I recall his comment "Justice is hard, justice is cold."   He clearly has forgotten that Sister Nightingale also help stopped the Blight in Ferelden and was good friends with the two mages he keeps banging on about.   No wonder he didn't care about any of the lay brothers and sisters in the chantry who also died alongside the Grand Cleric and the Templars there, not to mention any ordinary citizens who happened to be there at the time. 

To be honest, of all the mages we encounter in DA2, I find him by far and away the most scary, because he seems so nice and normal (when Justice is quiet) but underlying I sense this hard, cold, callous, utterly ruthless being - which the writers only allow to surface occasionally.  In fact I definitely would say he gives Meredith a good run for her money.   Why oh why are we not allowed to act on our instincts where he is concerned?

Good. You should be scared.

It seems perfectly reasonable he said that to her when Leilana appears to blame everything going on in Kirkwall on Mages or "Magic". She seems to have no problem with the Divine considering an Exalted March except other than to get Elthina the great and holy out.

And lol @ the "I am Grand Cleric, who would dare attack me?!"

Modifié par Tidra, 12 août 2011 - 08:54 .

[Knight of Dane]

Melca36 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Leliana betrayed my Warden and everything she stood for. Whatever Anders says here, I have no issues with.

My Warden was best friends with Leliana. 
She would sever her ties with Leliana for becoming a  RELIGIOUS NUT JOB.

Becoming?

[esper]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Leliana betrayed my Warden and everything she stood for. Whatever Anders says here, I have no issues with.

My Warden was best friends with Leliana. 
She would sever her ties with Leliana for becoming a  RELIGIOUS NUT JOB.

Becoming?

My warden was also completely fooled by Leliana... They got along nicely, but if my Warden knew Leliana's current job... *Shudders*. 

[Quething]

Tidra wrote...

Good. You should be scared.

It seems perfectly reasonable he said that to her when Leilana appears to blame everything going on in Kirkwall on Mages or "Magic". She seems to have no problem with the Divine considering an Exalted March except other than to get Elthina the great and holy out.

Leliana being OOCly crazy isn't exactly justification for Anders acting like doctors, children, and two out of three Hawkes are the enemy and therefore valid targets over an accident of birth.

And it's not like that's the only time he expresses that sentiment. By Act III Janders has kind of lost the plot, and is no longer about Freedom or Justice, just Mages.

[Xilizhra]

Quething wrote...

Tidra wrote...

Good. You should be scared.

It seems perfectly reasonable he said that to her when Leilana appears to blame everything going on in Kirkwall on Mages or "Magic". She seems to have no problem with the Divine considering an Exalted March except other than to get Elthina the great and holy out.

Leliana being OOCly crazy isn't exactly justification for Anders acting like doctors, children, and two out of three Hawkes are the enemy and therefore valid targets over an accident of birth.

And it's not like that's the only time he expresses that sentiment. By Act III Janders has kind of lost the plot, and is no longer about Freedom or Justice, just Mages.

Only enemies of mage freedom are valid deliberate targets. Others might wind up being collateral damage, but more of that seems to show up with templar action than with any mage one.

[esper]

Xilizhra wrote...

Quething wrote...

Tidra wrote...

Good. You should be scared.

It seems perfectly reasonable he said that to her when Leilana appears to blame everything going on in Kirkwall on Mages or "Magic". She seems to have no problem with the Divine considering an Exalted March except other than to get Elthina the great and holy out.

Leliana being OOCly crazy isn't exactly justification for Anders acting like doctors, children, and two out of three Hawkes are the enemy and therefore valid targets over an accident of birth.

And it's not like that's the only time he expresses that sentiment. By Act III Janders has kind of lost the plot, and is no longer about Freedom or Justice, just Mages.

Only enemies of mage freedom are valid deliberate targets. Others might wind up being collateral damage, but more of that seems to show up with templar action than with any mage one.

Maybe it is because my Hawke is so pro-mage, but I clearly took Leliana for being anti-mage and blame Kirkwalls problem on the mages. I just wish Hawke could have treathen her as well, because she was clearly threathning my Hawke.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Op
That's how I interpreted it. That Anders became so delusional, obsessed and full of hatred that he began to see things not in terms of mage vs templars. But rather mages vs non-mages.

And we have an indication of that in Awakening. He was impressed with the baroness and did not feel disgusted by her (indeed, he almost sounded sexually attracted to her). One could decide to help her out for pragmatic reasons while being repulsed by her (what I did). But Anders was impressed by a petty mage tyrant.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 août 2011 - 10:20 .

[Lenimph]

Wait wait... what has Leliana done that we know counts as betrayal to a pro-mage warden? Concern for the safety of people? All we really know is that she was working for Dorothea.

Working for the person who saved her from imprisonment and who knows what kind of torture = unforgivable betrayal?!

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Leliana betrayed my Warden and everything she stood for. Whatever Anders says here, I have no issues with.

I pretty much felt the same way. Leliana's Song already revealed that she lied to The Warden about her history. In "Faith," Leliana doesn't once mention the Knight-Commander turned dictator, but blames the unrest on the mages - which really doesn't make any sense when Meredith has caused mages and templars to work together to oust her from power ("Best Served Cold"). It's like Leliana didn't bother investigating the issue that she was supposed to when she arrived in the city-state, and she seems to have no problem with an Exalted March against all of Kirkwall if the mages gain autonomy, so should I be surprised that Anders seems to care little for her or other members of the very group that is subjugating the mages?

[bleetman]

Lenimph wrote...

Wait wait... what has Leliana done that we know counts as betrayal to a pro-mage warden? Concern for the safety of people? All we really know is that she was working for Dorothea.

Working for the person who saved her from imprisonment and who knows what kind of torture = unforgivable betrayal?!

It's more the "if Kirkwall falls to magic, nowhere will be safe" type comments, followed by trotting back to the Divine to report how out of hand the situation is apparently getting that's riling people up, I imagine. She does come across as somewhat anti-mage in her DA2 cameo, what with turning up, seeming content that the mages are responsible and suggesting that the Grand Cleric get out of town before it gets any worse, then leaving again.

Modifié par bleetman, 12 août 2011 - 10:35 .

[Aeowyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Op
That's how I interpreted it. That Anders became so delusional, obsessed and full of hatred that he began to see things not in terms of mage vs templars. But rather mages vs non-mages.

And we have an indication of that in Awakening. He was impressed with the baroness and did not feel disgusted by her (indeed, he almost sounded sexually attracted to her). One could decide to help her out for pragmatic reasons while being repulsed by her (what I did). But Anders was impressed by a petty mage tyrant.

Say what now? He votes to side with the Baroness and not Justice, but it wasn't out of power, he just didn't want to be trapped in the Fade, and believed that they would have a bigger chance getting out of there if they sided with her.

[miraclemight]

As mentioned by one of the posters here, people seemed to be holding the idiocy ball a lot in the game. I'm not sure if Lelianna's reaction to the situation was the result of Chantry's indoctrination... or from holding that ball.

A LOT of characters were acting strange or nonchalant, whereas in real life (Thedas), they wouldn't have done such a thing.

Edit: Does Anders really vote to side with Baroness in Awakening? I didn't know that. Well, of all the people in the Free Marches, Justice had to merge with Anders. That was huge naivety on his part.

Modifié par miraclemight, 12 août 2011 - 10:35 .

[Lenimph]

bleetman wrote...

She does come across as somewhat anti-mage in her DA2 cameo, what with turning up, seeming content that the mages are responsible and suggesting that the Grand Cleric get out of town before it gets any worse, then leaving again.

 
I see... well I don't blame her. If I was sent to check on Kirkwall and attacked by crazy mages upon arrival I would indeed suspect there was some sort of problem... but that's just me.

[bleetman]

Lenimph wrote...

I see... well I don't blame her. If I was sent to check on Kirkwall and attacked by crazy mages upon arrival I would indeed suspect there was some sort of problem... but that's just me.

And if the city state had spent the past three or so years under the vice grip of the Knight Commander whose own Templars were rebelling against her, I might be inclined to investigate the matters a little deeper, not just assume that a handful of violent apostates are behind it all.

I also forgot to mention her line about 'tolerating' mages who want freedom. That one got my back up something fierce.

[Xilizhra]

Her skills in gathering information don't seem that hot.

Unless she didn't want to make the Chantry look weak in front of Hawke.

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

Only enemies of mage freedom are valid deliberate targets. Others might wind up being collateral damage

That may be the party line, but Janders' behavior doesn't bear it out. As early as Act II and the Ella issue, even, though I would say it doesn't get truly overwhelming until Act III where you've got Anders advocating slavery against people he doesn't like even in a moment of emotional control and calm.

bleetman wrote...

I also forgot to mention her line about 'tolerating' mages who want freedom. That one got my back up something fierce.

Yeah, that's... not a good line, and rather difficult to reconcile with DA:O Leliana (proud blood mage apostate Amell's lover, in the first playthrough I did with that DLC).

Modifié par Quething, 12 août 2011 - 10:42 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aeowyn wrote...
Say what now? He votes to side with the Baroness and not Justice, but it wasn't out of power, he just didn't want to be trapped in the Fade, and believed that they would have a bigger chance getting out of there if they sided with her.

He said he is impressed with her and that he likes strong women. He didnt even seem remotely disgusted with her.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 août 2011 - 10:43 .

[Xilizhra]

Quething wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Only enemies of mage freedom are valid deliberate targets. Others might wind up being collateral damage

That may be the party line, but Janders' behavior doesn't bear it out. As early as Act II and the Ella issue, even, though I would say it doesn't get truly overwhelming until Act III where you've got Anders advocating slavery against people he doesn't like even in a moment of emotional control and calm.

Fenris is a threat to mages everywhere, and will side with the templars unless Hawke sticks out her neck for him to an incredible length.

[Aeowyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
Say what now? He votes to side with the Baroness and not Justice, but it wasn't out of power, he just didn't want to be trapped in the Fade, and believed that they would have a bigger chance getting out of there if they sided with her.

He said he is impressed with her and that he likes strong women. He didnt even seem remotely disgusted with her.

Is this if you side with her?