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[Quething]

Tidra wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

All I wish to say regarding Anders true colors is that Sebastian got it dead on when he told my Hawke that Anders was a selfish man. By the end of the tale, I knew exactly what he meant.

Oh boy, go Sebastian! POM POMS! Cause like, threatening to march on a city just to kill 1 guy isn't selfish or anything...right??!?!

Now that, ladies and gentlemen, is an example of actual ad hominem in work. It doesn't mean "calling your opponent mean names." It means "saying an opponent's argument is invalid, because of a negative qualtiy they have."

It's a logical fallacy, because a negative quality on the part of the arguer has no impact whatsoever on the factual accuracy of the argument. Arguments must stand on their own merits.

That is to say: just because Sebastian is selfish doesn't make him any less right that Anders is.

Of course, as already mentioned, Anders will also tell you this. You can't truly romance him until after the Ella Incident. At that point no player can legitimately claim to not know what they were getting into.

[Sinaxi]

Quething wrote...

Tidra wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

All I wish to say regarding Anders true colors is that Sebastian got it dead on when he told my Hawke that Anders was a selfish man. By the end of the tale, I knew exactly what he meant.

Oh boy, go Sebastian! POM POMS! Cause like, threatening to march on a city just to kill 1 guy isn't selfish or anything...right??!?!

Now that, ladies and gentlemen, is an example of actual ad hominem in work. It doesn't mean "calling your opponent mean names." It means "saying an opponent's argument is invalid, because of a negative qualtiy they have."

It's a logical fallacy, because a negative quality on the part of the arguer has no impact whatsoever on the factual accuracy of the argument. Arguments must stand on their own merits.

That is to say: just because Sebastian is selfish doesn't make him any less right that Anders is.

Of course, as already mentioned, Anders will also tell you this. You can't truly romance him until after the Ella Incident. At that point no player can legitimately claim to not know what they were getting into.

Except I'm not actually arguing or debating with anyone on this thread, and therefore don't actually give a ****. I guess you could call it blatant sarcasm (which it was) or some people might want to refer to it as "trolling"...don't really care. Take your pick.

But thank you so much for that lesson on logical fallacies that I didn't need, and am quite sure half the other people in this thread didn't need. Besides, I never said Sebastian was "less right" I simply stated (in my sarcastic way) that what he did can also be construed as selfish - which it can. In no way did I argue against the "factual accuracy" of her post.

Also, unless you counted that as me making fun of all Sebastian fans (which, sure, you could I guess) I never actually made a statement in regards to a negative quality about the poster. So, um, kay.

Modifié par Tidra, 13 août 2011 - 07:21 .

[SurelyForth]

Quething wrote...


Of course, as already mentioned, Anders will also tell you this. You can't truly romance him until after the Ella Incident. At that point no player can legitimately claim to not know what they were getting into.

I disagree with Sebastian's claim. Anders isn't selfish, because he's not acting out of any urge to make his life better. Were he to blow up the Chantry and disappear, starting the war and leaving Hawke to hold the bag while he saved his pretty hide, that would be selfish. If he suicide bombed the Chantry, that would also be selfish. But he's going into it and ensures that he's is caught and is willing to accept whatever punishment is leveled against him. For all he knows, Meredith could have him tortured, but he risks it any way all for the opportunity to maybe give mages a chance at freedom he himself will probably never know. 

I mean...Anders tells Hawke that his cause is more important than anything, including himself, and he's hardly the first person to do so. Is every soldier that leaves his family behind to fight in wars where he might die or kill another selfish if they're fighting against tyrrany or for the freedom of others? I certainly don't think so.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 13 août 2011 - 07:25 .

[Chignon]

I don't think Sebastian meant that Anders in himself is a selfish person. I think he meant that Anders is "selfish" in his focus on the cause he completely dedicated himself to.

[Dave of Canada]

He's selfish in the case that he's doing it for mages without considering the context of what might happen afterward, he's not considering that some mages don't want to be caught in a war. Hell, he doesn't seem to mind that the Rite was called. All he cares about is "FREEEEDDDDDDOOOOMMM".

He's making a choice for mages throughout Thedas and will blackmail Hawke's relationship with him to achieve it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 août 2011 - 07:31 .

[Quething]

Tidra wrote...
But thank you so much for that lesson on logical fallacies that I didn't need, and am quite sure half the other people in this thread didn't need.

You're very welcome! 

SurelyForth wrote...

I disagree with Sebastian's claim. Anders isn't selfish, because he's not acting out of any urge to make his life better. Were he to blow up the Chantry and disappear, starting the war and leaving Hawke to hold the bag while he saved his pretty hide, that would be selfish. If he suicide bombed the Chantry, that would also be selfish. But he's going into it and ensures that he's is caught and is willing to accept whatever punishment is leveled against him. For all he knows, Meredith could have him tortured, but he risks it any way all for the opportunity to maybe give mages a chance at freedom he himself will probably never know.

I dunno. "Selfish" doesn't necessarily have to mean "out to improve one's own lot." In the case of Anders, as Chignon said, it's more "will always put his own concerns first," which in Anders' case means "the Cause Of Mages" (as he sees it). Which he does - even to the point where he puts them above the concerns of other mages who see it otherwise.

Modifié par Quething, 13 août 2011 - 07:49 .

[john-in-france]

Dave of Canada wrote...

He's selfish in the case that he's doing it for mages without considering the context of what might happen afterward, he's not considering that some mages don't want to be caught in a war. Hell, he doesn't seem to mind that the Rite was called. All he cares about is "FREEEEDDDDDDOOOOMMM".

He's making a choice for mages throughout Thedas and will blackmail Hawke's relationship with him to achieve it.

Pretty much my take on the matter. Thank you.

[Giggles_Manically]

Its more that Anders thinks that every single mage wants what he wants.
That every mage is a basically decent individual who would agree with him.

Like after All that Remains :"I cant believe any mage would ever do something like that"
Or how is shocked that Merrill would use blood magic willingly.
Or how he thinks that all Templars are pure evil who oppress innocent mages for no reason.

He is not selfish but he fails to see things as they really are.
That some mages like Bethany, or Wynne are content being in the circle.
That some mages are bad people like Quentin, or well most mages we meet.
That some templars are decent people like Thrask. "That Thrask seemed a decent fellow... for a templar"

In the end he is to blinded by his and Justice's views to see things for what they really are.
That there is good cause for the circles, and that freedom is just as dangerous as oppression.

He is the type of person or persons as it were who sees their cause as right and will do whatever it takes to see that through. Which is well most of our companions.
In the end Anders puts a cause before anything else, which while admirable does cause significant issues.

Dont even ASK my sister what she though on Anders after he said: "If you really loved me you do this for me".
Also to note is that he has someone VERY one track in his head who cant see things in any true complexity or depth.

But no Anders is not selfish, simply obsessed to the point of well being Anders.

[Ryzaki]

Ugh. "If you loved me you would do this for me." said in response to something someone just told you no to is the (to me) number 1 sign of an abusive and/or smarmy boyfriend or just a plain manipulator. In RL I hear that line and I bounce because it's time to go.  

As for selfishness. Many forms. Dave said it well. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 août 2011 - 08:47 .

[Gervaise]

Selfish, obsessed, tunnel vision, call it what you will - giggles has got the point I made on an earlier post. Anders has made a decision that he wants to affect every mage in Thedas without considering if that is what every mage in Thedas wants. Presumably that is why he bombs the Chantry instead of the Gallows, because to resolve the situation in Kirkwall the best move would be to take out Meredith, because by now few Templars it seems would shed any tears on that one. But no, he wants total freedom on his terms. Better a quick death now, than a slow one later - may be some mages just don't want death at all.
Actually once again, just as with the concept of justice, there is a paradox here. Freedom is essentially the ability to make choices without coersion or compulsion by outside agents - Anders is not free because he is trapped by his obsession, the mages are not free because he has removed the possibility for compromise that many of them might have chosen. They are free to be killed by Templars, the mob, demons, starvation but they are denied the choice to actually be part of a Circle, to have a sense of belonging, to be protected from the ignorant and exploitation by mages stronger than themselves. Alain admits that the situation in Kirkwall is far worse than Starkhaven. Feynriel admits that what he has seen in Tevinter makes him question if prehaps the Templars are right.
Anders was forcibly removed from his family but some mages were actually rejected by their families - Jowan certainly was. Even without Chantry teaching a child with magic in a village where the others do not possess this gift would likely to be picked on and isolated because they are different.
He stresses how the two mages helped the warden and in at least one case that did do a great deal of good for the cause of mages and she was invited to advise the new monarch. Later she attended a mages conference in Cumberland without a Templar in constant supervision. Mages who were considered trustworthy were allowed a degree of freedom outside the Circle - Anders never experienced this because he kept running away. If the Warden was a mage they could actually ask for greater freedom for the Circle - Meredith criticises Alistair for allowing this. But now all the good done by moderate mages to demonstrate that mages can be trusted out in the community has been undone. And it won't help that when the Templars go inside to clean up in the gallows, they are going to find the remains of various abominations, not to mention the disgusting lump in the main hall that will endorse the fact that the Circle was corrupt - likely to be put on display in case anyone doubts the RoA was necessary. To make matters worse, when the poor people of Darktown start asking where the nice mage is who used to care for them they will discover that he bombed the Chantry and caused the sudden unleashing of abominations and demons in the streets. I think sympathy for mages is likely to take a big nosedive in the immediate area for the foreseeable future. But that's all right because the mages are free.

[Xilizhra]

It was an enormous blow, yes. But the status quo was unacceptable. Some mages could survive in it, yes; many more fell through the cracks, and either died or suffered horribly. Or were made Tranquil. Destroying any tyrannical regime leaves some people adrift; some may well die in the meantime. But the future of the world is often better for it. It's a regrettable necessity, but many things are.

[Carmen_Willow]

Tidra wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

All I wish to say regarding Anders true colors is that Sebastian got it dead on when he told my Hawke that Anders was a selfish man. By the end of the tale, I knew exactly what he meant.

Oh boy, go Sebastian! POM POMS! Cause like, threatening to march on a city just to kill 1 guy isn't selfish or anything...right??!?!

Even a pompous a** gets it right once in awhile. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Tidra wrote...
Cause like, threatening to march on a city just to kill 1 guy isn't selfish or anything...right??!?!

LOL, thank you. This.

I mean, that whole scene. Sebastian, for one brief moment, was the only one with any sense, where he points out that Anders, not the Circle, was responsible, and that Anders, not the Circle, should pay. And he was absolutely right on that point.

Until he threw a fit because Hawke would execute Anders. I was like "No one's stopping, you, choir boy. Anders is sitting right over there, quietly, just waiting for you to put an arrow in him." But no, his Highness Sebastian seems to think Hawk has a tattoo on her forhead that says "Sebastians Royal Exocutioner" or something. I wasn't stopping him. No one was.

His response to bring back an army to destroy a city just to get one man (who will most likely be gone by the time Sebastain shows up, if ever) is perhaps the most juvinile moment of act 3. Really, talk about temper tantrums.

He'll have to get in line to sack Kirkwall, however, since its likely the Divine will call an EM on the city. That would be funny if Sebastian's army showed up the same time the Divine's army did, and then they fight over who gets to attack the city first.

[Giggles_Manically]

I still dont understand why people think its so bad what Sebastian says.
FIVE MINUTES AFTER SOMEONE JUST BLEW UP HIS SURROGATE MOTHER.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I still dont understand why people think its so bad what Sebastian says.
FIVE MINUTES AFTER SOMEONE JUST BLEW UP HIS SURROGATE MOTHER.

Because he's about to do go kill thousands more to avenge the death of ONE PERSON. As well as destroy/ransack a city to kill ONE PERSON.

People b*tched about Alistair when he threw a fit at Landsmeet for sparing Loghain. But at least Alistair did not threaten to go get an army somewhere to burn Denerim to the ground. He just told everyone screw you, I'm out of here.

Had Sebastian simply told Hawke to go f*ck themselves and left, or vowed to personally hunt them and Anders down, it would have been different. Brining armies into his threats pretty much destroyed any respect he had briefly earned earlier when he told everyone forget the Circle, Anders was right there and should be punished.

[leggywillow]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I still dont understand why people think its so bad what Sebastian says.
FIVE MINUTES AFTER SOMEONE JUST BLEW UP HIS SURROGATE MOTHER.

Because he's about to do go kill thousands more to avenge the death of ONE PERSON. As well as destroy/ransack a city to kill ONE PERSON.

Meh, he isn't going to actually go through with it.  Sometimes I shriek ridiculous threats (to myself, of course) to the cars around me when I'm a traffic jam.  Never followed through with it yet.

[Giggles_Manically]

And we should totally take someone who says something in a moment of grief at their word.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

And we should totally take someone who says something in a moment of grief at their word.

Is there a reason in this case we should not believe Sebastian will not carry out on his threats, or at least try?

Not that I care, in fact, Kirkwall getting razed to the ground would be pretty good start. But that is not the point.

[LobselVith8]

john-in-france wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What I'm saying that Quentin may well have escaped Starkhaven, but it can't have been at the fire. I think it was years earlier.

I agree.

I checked both the Wiki and Codex, whilst the letter says that he was searching for mages from Starkhaven, there is no confirmation that Quentin is from Starkhaven.

It's never explicitly stated where Quentin came from, but the note found in Gascard's mansion does imply that Quentin may have been from the Circle of Starkhaven. The note is the only piece of information that Hawke obtains which suggests where Quentin came from, although Xilizhra has a point in addressing that he could have left the Circle of Starkhaven at any time. Why Orsino would even care about Quentin's experiments - since the reasoning behind him providing Quentin with books - is never explained, nor can I find any reason why anyone would provide Quentin with books (on topics I assume would pertain to necromancy). It seems more than a little forced to me to have Orsino aiding Quentin without providing any sort of rationale behind the assistance, especially when the portrayals of Orsino seem to continually depict him trying to avoid any danger to his people (sans the nonsensical conclusion of Act III that also includes Meredith becoming a Super-Sayian).

[Sinaxi]

leggywillow wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I still dont understand why people think its so bad what Sebastian says.
FIVE MINUTES AFTER SOMEONE JUST BLEW UP HIS SURROGATE MOTHER.

Because he's about to do go kill thousands more to avenge the death of ONE PERSON. As well as destroy/ransack a city to kill ONE PERSON.

Meh, he isn't going to actually go through with it.  Sometimes I shriek ridiculous threats (to myself, of course) to the cars around me when I'm a traffic jam.  Never followed through with it yet.

The reason why it's funny to me is because all I ever hear people going on about is "RAH RAH ANDERS SAID THIS, ANDERS DID THIS...ANDERS IS A DICK FOR SAYING AND DOING THESE THINGS!" And they somehow ignore how almost every single character in DA2 does and says things that can be construed as extremely selfish as well or "dickish". So..it just makes me laugh.

[nos_astra]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Is there a reason in this case we should not believe Sebastian will not carry out on his threats, or at least try?

Common sense.

He's grieving and angry.
He still lacks the army needed to attack anyone. It will take months (at least) to built such an army. (Unless I'm missing something.)
The situation will have changed by then. (Anders will have died or left.)

[hoorayforicecream]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I still dont understand why people think its so bad what Sebastian says.
FIVE MINUTES AFTER SOMEONE JUST BLEW UP HIS SURROGATE MOTHER.

Because he's about to do go kill thousands more to avenge the death of ONE PERSON. As well as destroy/ransack a city to kill ONE PERSON.

The Chantry is also a place that also takes care of orphans, widows, refugees, the poor and the sick. Leandra can send Orana to the Chantry. The Redcliffe Chantry gave succor to refugees from the undead, and Leliana also took refuge at the Chantry after fleeing from Orlais.

So... is it just the one person that Anders killed? I doubt it. A good number of innocents were likely there a well.

[berelinde]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

And we should totally take someone who says something in a moment of grief at their word.

Is there a reason in this case we should not believe Sebastian will not carry out on his threats, or at least try?

Not that I care, in fact, Kirkwall getting razed to the ground would be pretty good start. But that is not the point.

If Sebastian's past is any indication of his future, something else will distract him before he even reaches Starkhaven. In the event that he doesn't talk himself out of his own solemn vows (again), he will probably just tack a poster to the Chanter's Board and wait for someone else to do it.

[Giggles_Manically]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I still dont understand why people think its so bad what Sebastian says.
FIVE MINUTES AFTER SOMEONE JUST BLEW UP HIS SURROGATE MOTHER.

Because he's about to do go kill thousands more to avenge the death of ONE PERSON. As well as destroy/ransack a city to kill ONE PERSON.

The Chantry is also a place that also takes care of orphans, widows, refugees, the poor and the sick. Leandra can send Orana to the Chantry. The Redcliffe Chantry gave succor to refugees from the undead, and Leliana also took refuge at the Chantry after fleeing from Orlais.

So... is it just the one person that Anders killed? I doubt it. A good number of innocents were likely there a well.

Hush you collateral damage and all that.

[berelinde]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Leandra can send Orana to the Chantry.

Is this headcanon or actual dialogue? Because all I've been able to get out of her is "And elven slave? I hope you know what you're doing." But that's because my Hawkes always said that they would pay her as a servant.