322 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...


Are you seriously going to tell me that wars where the death toll was in the thousands have never been started over incidents with death tolls in the dozens? World War 1 was started because of the assassination of one man. It may be childish and juvenile, but maturity was never a requirement for royalty, politics, or war.

Of course it isn't. And I'm well aware why wars start. It does not make it any less eyeroll or facepalm worthy.

In fact, Sebastian is pretty typical of most nobles in that respect. He is not unique. It does not make him any less annoying or facepalm worthy. And unfortunately, while you can execute Anders and at least balance the book for that crime, sadly, there is no shank Sebastian option in there either, when he throws his threats around and then storms off.

I mean, in DAO, you could execute Alistair as a potential threat to the peace and stability of the kingdom. Why can't we do the same with Sebastian?

I can think of a couple of reasons...

#1, killing the crown prince of Starkhaven would likely cause a war to happen anyway.
#2, threats are not the same as actually doing it. Anders isn't executed because he threatened to blow up the Chantry and all the people inside.

Executing Alistair works because very few people knew he had royal blood. If he had time to gain followers and supporters among the bannorn and such, it would have been a very different story.

[Wulfram]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I mean, in DAO, you could execute Alistair as a potential threat to the peace and stability of the kingdom. Why can't we do the same with Sebastian?

Because we complain about Leliana not staying dead?

[leggywillow]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I can think of a couple of reasons...

#1, killing the crown prince of Starkhaven would likely cause a war to happen anyway.

Not necessarily.  Someone killed the entire Vael family except for Sebastian and nothing happened.  The only person who was ready to march to war over it was the only surviving Vael himself.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I can think of a couple of reasons...

#1, killing the crown prince of Starkhaven would likely cause a war to happen anyway.
#2, threats are not the same as actually doing it. Anders isn't executed because he threatened to blow up the Chantry and all the people inside.

Sebastian isn't the crown prince at that point. I doubt Starkhaven at that point would have really cared if he died, since his family had been overthrown anyway. Hell, probably a number of Starkhaven nobles would actually he happy to see Senastian dead, since it would fully leave the throne up for grabs.

Executing Alistair works because very few people knew he had royal blood. If he had time to gain followers and supporters among the bannorn and such, it would have been a very different story.

Anora demanded his execution because Alistair's actions were deemed threatening to the kingdom. He tried to take the crown so he could execute Loghain. Alistair had no followers, only Eamon. Sebastian is very similar, he is, after all, an "exiled prince".  Killing him, at that point, wouldn't have mattered any more than killing Alistair mattered to the nobility. 

And alot of people knew about Alistair's heritage. At the Landsmeet, everyone knew who he was.

[Mr.House]

leggywillow wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I can think of a couple of reasons...

#1, killing the crown prince of Starkhaven would likely cause a war to happen anyway.

Not necessarily.  Someone killed the entire Vael family except for Sebastian and nothing happened.  The only person who was ready to march to war over it was the only surviving Vael himself.

There was alot of unrest in Starkhaven however.

[berelinde]

leggywillow wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I can think of a couple of reasons...

#1, killing the crown prince of Starkhaven would likely cause a war to happen anyway.

Not necessarily.  Someone killed the entire Vael family except for Sebastian and nothing happened.  The only person who was ready to march to war over it was the only surviving Vael himself.

Very much so. Also, Sebastian, at this point, is not the crown prince of Starkhaven. He is a ward of the Chantry who happens to be the son of the former prince. And there is currently a Vael on the throne, and one who has absolutely NO interest in upholding Sebastian's claims. He'll have a hard time convincing Starkhaven to rally behind him. Sure, the incumbent Vael is an idiot, but as long as the populace is getting bread and circuses, they'll choose him over an unproven kid with nothing but some lacquered armor and a family bow to recommend him.

[Mr.House]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Anora demanded his execution because Alistair's actions were deemed threatening to the kingdom. He tried to take the crown so he could execute Loghain. Alistair had no followers, only Eamon. Sebastian is very similar, he is, after all, an "exiled prince".  Killing him, at that point, wouldn't have mattered any more than killing Alistair mattered to the nobility. 

Anora got rid of him because he was a threat to her power. As long as Alistair lived, him and his bloodline could be a danfger to Anoras rule, that's also not countingt he other bastard children Maric probaly had.


We don't know how many people where following Seb at the time, we do with Alistair and his supporters where small.

[Mr.House]

berelinde wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I can think of a couple of reasons...

#1, killing the crown prince of Starkhaven would likely cause a war to happen anyway.

Not necessarily.  Someone killed the entire Vael family except for Sebastian and nothing happened.  The only person who was ready to march to war over it was the only surviving Vael himself.

And there is currently a Vael on the throne,

Wrong, there is still fighting for the throne by the time of act 3.

[berelinde]

So, if the government is destabilized already, would it make sense to charge off to take on a foreign city state? Under the banner of a guy who changes his vows three times in a year?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Mr.House wrote...

Anora got rid of him because he was a threat to her power. As long as Alistair lived, him and his bloodline could be a danfger to Anoras rule, that's also not countingt he other bastard children Maric probaly had.


We don't know how many people where following Seb at the time, we do with Alistair and his supporters where small.

Sebastian's "followers" were limited to Hawke and Co. In Starkhaven, he might have some supporters. But no one of any import that would really care if you killed him, just like no one cared when his whole family got whacked. He had to sit around a Chantry waiting for someone to help him avenge his family. Had he any support of signifigance from anyone important, he wouldn't have had to appeal for help to the public.

So again, I do not see why Sebastain can't be killed. He's threatening to start a war between two Free Marcher cities. That's reason enough, even if his threats are idle, to decide to remove him. Anders already started one war that can't be stopped, even by executing him. Sebastian can be whacked with less consequence, I think. And more long term benefit.

[Mr.House]

berelinde wrote...

So, if the government is destabilized already, would it make sense to charge off to take on a foreign city state? Under the banner of a guy who changes his vows three times in a year?

Seb has the strongest claim, if they take over Kirkwall the nobles gain more influnce and power, more so Seb as prince. People like power, taking over a city brings in more power.

[berelinde]

Psst! Skadi! It's plot armor. We'll see him again. Unfortunately.

(By the way, good to see you again!)

[Melca36]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...


Of course it isn't. And I'm well aware why wars start. It does not make it any less eyeroll or facepalm worthy.

In fact, Sebastian is pretty typical of most nobles in that respect. He is not unique. It does not make him any less annoying or facepalm worthy. And unfortunately, while you can execute Anders and at least balance the book for that crime, sadly, there is no shank Sebastian option in there either, when he throws his threats around and then storms off.

I mean, in DAO, you could execute Alistair as a potential threat to the peace and stability of the kingdom. Why can't we do the same with Sebastian?

Thats why I hope any possible DLC that features Sebastian will give us  the choice to kill him if there is no character evolution where he realizes that the Chantry is not as perfect as he thinks it to be.

[berelinde]

Mr.House wrote...

berelinde wrote...

So, if the government is destabilized already, would it make sense to charge off to take on a foreign city state? Under the banner of a guy who changes his vows three times in a year?

Seb has the strongest claim, if they take over Kirkwall the nobles gain more influnce and power, more so Seb as prince. People like power, taking over a city brings in more power.

See the part where Seb had to come to Kirkwall to get help avenging his family, the rightful rulers of Starkhaven. When it comes to street cred, Seb's got nothing.

[Mr.House]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Anora got rid of him because he was a threat to her power. As long as Alistair lived, him and his bloodline could be a danfger to Anoras rule, that's also not countingt he other bastard children Maric probaly had.


We don't know how many people where following Seb at the time, we do with Alistair and his supporters where small.

Sebastian's "followers" were limited to Hawke and Co. In Starkhaven, he might have some supporters. But no one of any import that would really care if you killed him, just like no one cared when his whole family got whacked. He had to sit around a Chantry waiting for someone to help him avenge his family. Had he any support of signifigance from anyone important, he wouldn't have had to appeal for help to the public.

So again, I do not see why Sebastain can't be killed. He's threatening to start a war between two Free Marcher cities. That's reason enough, even if his threats are idle, to decide to remove him. Anders already started one war that can't be stopped, even by executing him. Sebastian can be whacked with less consequence, I think. And more long term benefit.

You don't know how importent his supporters are because we have never been to Starkhaven, nor do you know the true effects of what happens in Starkhaven after the deaths of his parents, we only know Seb followed them to kirkwall and no one in KIRKWALL was willing to help.

You can assume all you want but we don't know any facts.

[ipgd]

Sebastian can't be killed because they have future plans for him, and you'd be raising a much bigger stink if they let you kill him and then brought him back from the dead.

[Mr.House]

berelinde wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

berelinde wrote...

So, if the government is destabilized already, would it make sense to charge off to take on a foreign city state? Under the banner of a guy who changes his vows three times in a year?

Seb has the strongest claim, if they take over Kirkwall the nobles gain more influnce and power, more so Seb as prince. People like power, taking over a city brings in more power.

See the part where Seb had to come to Kirkwall to get help avenging his family, the rightful rulers of Starkhaven. When it comes to street cred, Seb's got nothing.

Seb was already in Kirkwall and was able to track they came to Kirkwall. He never went to Starkhaven until after the mercs where killed.

[leggywillow]

ipgd wrote...

Sebastian can't be killed because they have future plans for him, and you'd be raising a much bigger stink if they let you kill him and then brought him back from the dead.

Yep, this is really the long and short of it.  Hawke could cut Seb's throat right there at the end of the game, and most likely nothing would come of it in Thedas.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

@berelinde: Yeah, plot armor. Trust Bioware to make the one companion I'd actually enjoy executing immune to the murder knife. Sigh. And nice to see you here as well!

@Melca: If there is a future DLC revolving around a single companion, it better be Varric and the epic tale of Bianca and his chest hair.

[Quething]

bleetman wrote...

Mmhm. The various chantry sisters/mothers wandering Lowtown asking for donations were particularly irksome, I thought. Asking beggers and prostitutes if they want to make a donation? Really?

Eh. They're wandering around everywhere. They get turned down in Hightown too. Besides, I doubt they're expecting the Lowtown locals will donate thirty cows and a sack of gold each. When I was a wee thing, my church group would go on mission in other states, and stay at local churches while we were working. They'd pass the collection plate and we kids, who had like thirty dollars on ourselves on average, would toss a fiver in. Does a fiver mean much of anything to a church that spends forty times that in a week on utilities alone? No, of course not. But a fiver each from forty people does. And those forty people get to feel like they're part of the faith and like they've done a small part toward helping an institution that's helping them.

If that prostitute with nothing to offer but what's between her legs had tossed over a couple bits instead, a mother of any honesty in her role whatsoever would have counted herself more successful for the day than the mother collecting in the Hightown market coming home with ten gold.

That said, there's certianly reason to suspect the Kirkwall Chantry isn't holding up its own end of that system, given the general lack of faith-based charity the poor in the city seem to have as recourse.

Modifié par Quething, 14 août 2011 - 12:24 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Mr.House wrote...
You don't know how importent his supporters are because we have never been to Starkhaven, nor do you know the true effects of what happens in Starkhaven after the deaths of his parents, we only know Seb followed them to kirkwall and no one in KIRKWALL was willing to help.

You can assume all you want but we don't know any facts.

He sat around in Kirkwall for three years waiting for someone to pick up a notice on a chanter's board. If he had any supporters that were worth anything politically, he wouldn't need to look to random mercs or strangers. Hell, the fact that he had to ask for help on a Chanter's board, instead of asking family allies or these "supporters", who would have armies and resources beyond anything Hawke or random merc would have.

Not to mention he's constantly going on about how he needs to take back his kingdom if you rival him. Given what we know and learn in game, and given that nothing is even implied, it is not a stretch at all. No one really cares about Sebastian or the Vaels. If Starkhaven's nobility is anything like the nobility elsewhere, they are already maneuvering their way to the throne, now that the Vaels are gone.

One doesn't need to go to Starkhaven to figure this out.

[bleetman]

@ Quething

Whilst this is naturally true, and I agree - as usual, you and your infernal reasoning  - it just seemed like asking the poor for donations which may or may not help the poor, emphasis on the not. Obviously I don't expect to see and hear of everything the Chantry does within the city, but a demonstration now and again that they're actually doing good wouldn't go amiss. All I see if refugees and homeless squatting in low/darktown, whilst the Chantry sits all but empty.

The only charity I see going on is from Lirene, who I can only assume isn't connected to the Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

@berelinde: Yeah, plot armor. Trust Bioware to make the one companion I'd actually enjoy executing immune to the murder knife. Sigh. And nice to see you here as well!

@Melca: If there is a future DLC revolving around a single companion, it better be Varric and the epic tale of Bianca and his chest hair.

Considering how Hawke can't kill Petrice in "Sheparding Wolves" or the possessed Warden in "Legacy," it's not really a surprise he doesn't do anything about Sebastian. I suppose the writers think the universe will explode if Hawke is allowed to be proactive about these types of problems.

I recall Sebastian's writer, Jennifer Hepler, saying that his story wasn't over, but I don't think that means another DLC focusing on him. If they did have plans on another DLC with his character, I can't imagine what Sebastian's DLC story could be, since it's clear he's focused on protecting Grand Cleric Elthina and has no designs on reclaiming Starkhaven until the danger has passed(until the Kirkwall Chantry is destroyed, of course). If the DLC takes place after the Right of Annulment transpires, what happens if Hawke doesn't kill Anders like Sebastian demands? The Prince of Starkhaven has vowed to kill Anders, and he's clearly upset with Hawke. I don't see why he'd turn to Hawke for aid if the Champion spared Anders' life.

[Quething]

bleetman wrote...

@ Quething

Whilst this is naturally true, and I agree - as usual, you and your infernal reasoning  - it just seemed like asking the poor for donations which may or may not help the poor, emphasis on the not. Obviously I don't expect to see and hear of everything the Chantry does within the city, but a demonstration now and again that they're actually doing good wouldn't go amiss. All I see if refugees and homeless squatting in low/darktown, whilst the Chantry sits all but empty.

The only charity I see going on is from Lirene, who I can only assume isn't connected to the Chantry.

Haha, my apologies! 

No, you're definitely right though, there should have been more visible charity from the Chantry. If for no other reason than because it might help the plot actually work. The whole game seems to center on this weird one-upsmanship of "which side can be more evil," and that's just... such a horrible, counter-productive way to make the player sympathize with both sides.

Particularly, a big part of the big problem with Anders' destruction of the Chantry is... it's hard to argue it was particularly terrible, given what we've seen. Which is nuts. By all lore and reason, the Chantry should be the bedrock of its community in any Andrastean city, a center of community, education and charity. We should see what we saw in Lothering and Redcliffe, sisters distributing food to refugees and brothers teaching children to read. We should have run into templars like Ser Bryant while we were out adventuring, patrolling for Tal Vashoth or hunting down demon sightings in order to protect the locals when Jevan was still preventing the guards from competently doing so. Lirene should have obvious Chantry backing, and the locals' ambient barks should include chatter about Elthina's baptizing their grandchild (or whatever Andrastean equivalent they do) and Sister Phyleas' latest sermon. There should actually be some reason to believe that Meredith is talking sense when she says "the people will demand blood." As-is, it seems like the Jenga-bomb caused less incovnenience to Kirkwall than if he'd totaled the Hanged Man.

Modifié par Quething, 14 août 2011 - 01:25 .

[Xilizhra]

The trouble with all that is that the mages are hamstrung from doing anything for the community, and it creates another perception imbalance.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 14 août 2011 - 01:27 .