322 réponses à ce sujet

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

The trouble with all that is that the mages are hamstrung from doing anything for the community, and it creates another perception imbalance.

That's easily solved by letting us visit Bethany/Carver in the Gallows (integrated family plot my ass) and see the mages there, going about their lives; also, seeing other apostates like Anders and Beth who use their freedom to protect and heal the people around them instead of stitching them into zombie parodies or turning on their own rescuers.

Modifié par Quething, 14 août 2011 - 01:47 .

[Xilizhra]

Quething wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The trouble with all that is that the mages are hamstrung from doing anything for the community, and it creates another perception imbalance.

That's easily solved by letting us visit Bethany/Carver in the Gallows (integrated family plot my ass) and see the mages there, going about their lives; also, seeing other apostates like Anders and Beth who use their freedom to protect and heal the people around them instead of stitching them into zombie parodies or turning on their own rescuers.

Hmm. Possibly that could work as well. I still won't ever buy that the people would keep demanding blood after Anders was executed, though.

I'm also thinking that Anders was even more vital than I thought: war was going to come anyway, thanks to the Resolutionists. However, they were a divided faction full of blood mages, probably several who were only in it for personal power. There'd be power struggles among the fraternities, disputes over blood magic, all kinds of disunities, and the templars would steamroller the mages. Anders threw down the gauntlet and picked everyone's sides right away, uniting the mages at a stroke and probably playing a vital role in keeping them alive.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

Sebastian can't be killed because they have future plans for him, and you'd be raising a much bigger stink if they let you kill him and then brought him back from the dead.

Which makes me wonder why he was a DLC companion.

[Heidenreich]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Sebastian can't be killed because they have future plans for him, and you'd be raising a much bigger stink if they let you kill him and then brought him back from the dead.

Which makes me wonder why he was a DLC companion.

So you'd pay the extra 8$

[leggywillow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Sebastian can't be killed because they have future plans for him, and you'd be raising a much bigger stink if they let you kill him and then brought him back from the dead.

Which makes me wonder why he was a DLC companion.

This is my biggest question.  I think Fenris should have been the DLC companion instead.

[FieryDove]

ipgd wrote...

Sebastian can't be killed because they have future plans for him, and you'd be raising a much bigger stink if they let you kill him and then brought him back from the dead.

You mean he didn't go boom in the boom place? I am disappointed...and outraged! (Not really)
I hope the person steering the ship rewires his brain while they are at it. Less fickle please with a side of fries.

To the OP:

Anders is well...Anders New and Improved™. I have slight hope that Justice is really still Justice somewhere in there and not just a glowing ball of fury. But it's unlikely we'll see them again. Which makes my wardens sad, they could so talk to both of them and help. Sigh

[syllogi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Sebastian can't be killed because they have future plans for him, and you'd be raising a much bigger stink if they let you kill him and then brought him back from the dead.

Which makes me wonder why he was a DLC companion.

It seems like a lot of things about DA2 were experimental, including making a companion who is more story related DLC only.  Duty and Repentance are not vital, but I see Faith and Sebastian's role after the Chantry explosion as main plot material.

[Gespenst]

Quething wrote...

That's easily solved by letting us visit Bethany/

I didn't think you could.

[nuclearpengu1nn]

Its all Justice who turned Anders into a bisexual terrorist
I miss the old funny and totally hetero Anders from awakening

[ipgd]

GreyWarden36 wrote...

Its all Justice who turned Anders into a bisexual terrorist
I miss the old funny and totally hetero Anders from awakening

[Giggles_Manically]

ipgd wrote...

GreyWarden36 wrote...

Its all Justice who turned Anders into a bisexual terrorist
I miss the old funny and totally hetero Anders from awakening

snip

OW!
My sides hurt from all the laughing.... 

[john-in-france]

Most of the plot problems seem to come from early release of the game. If they had actually taken the rest of the year, and finished the programming properly...we might have seen a very different story.

Obviously main plot is coded first with snippets like NPCs added later. I've noticed since Legacy that my NPCs have started talking more in new playthroughs.

Bioware plot bunnies keep screwing with us all...

[miraclemight]

Heidenreich wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Sebastian can't be killed because they have future plans for him, and you'd be raising a much bigger stink if they let you kill him and then brought him back from the dead.

Which makes me wonder why he was a DLC companion.

So you'd pay the extra 8$

It wouldn't have hurt that much if the DLC also didn't use recycled locations. Technically, you're just paying for some extra dialogues. Dialogues that should have been in the game to begin with.

Good thing I check the content of a download pack before buying it. Even if they say the Exiled Prince is crucial for re-opening the way to Black City, I'm not going to pay for it.

[Gervaise]

Looking at the Sister Nightingale DLC again, I realised that what some are saying above is true.  This DLC which you only get by buying the more expensive game, or paying for it afterwards, is actually quite important to the  main plot and therefore should have been part of the basic game.  Because now we have a stated reason why there is so much mage unrest in Kirkwall and more importantly why Anders may have gravitated there in the first place.  Beyond his connection to Karl, which I have never been clear was a romantic relationship which originated in the Ferelden Circle, even if he knew him there and  Karl was later transferred to Kirkwall, there has to be a reason why someone whose prime motivation is now mage freedom heads for the main Templar base in the east.  Yes, he can make a big political statement here but he is also much more likely to get arrested before he gets the chance.  However, if there is already a well established mage movement following the same goals as himself, that makes sense.  In the basic game he talks about a mage underground but it is never that clear how organised this group is  beyond getting mages away from the Circle and we never get to meet them.   And it also explains why Elthinia tells me she won't leave, when I haven't asked her to, just speak out to Meredith.   The longer speech she gives in response to Leliana's message also gives a substance to what I already thought was the case - she wants peace but she doubts that either side does or would listen to her because the stakes are too high.  (Orsino wants peace but the underground group don't)   Finally, it explains why an incident in Kirkwall apparently has Thedas wide implications - which frankly doesn't make much sense on the information available in the basic game because the small number of surviving mages could not have had that great an impact in so short a time - but an already established network passing the information could. 

This raises a further query - if Fenris is present he suggests that it is a Tevinter inspired movement.  Now I know he is fixated on Tevinter but there do seem to be a lot of Tevinter people knocking around.  So are they pulling the strings behind the scenes even to the extent that the thing Anders mentions about getting the idea of his bomb from research into Tevinter scrolls is actually a partial truth in that they suggested it to him?  After all Anders seems so convinced that his name will be remembered after his death even though only a handful of people know he was responsible.

Also you'd think he'd have more objection to wearing a Tevinter Chantry amulet from the fact that he has just witnessed what the owner of the amulet was willing to do to innocent slaves to save their own skin but instead his only problem is that it is against the law and you can get hung for wearing one - so wear it under my clothes - no problem.  This seems to suggest that his ultimate aim would be a set up like in Tevinter and why he doesn't want to believe Fenris' depiction of it - "surely not all mages resort to blood magic there?"

May be I'm seeing too much but I sense the DLC is going to be significant to the future plot.

[LobselVith8]

Gervaise wrote...

Looking at the Sister Nightingale DLC again, I realised that what some are saying above is true.  This DLC which you only get by buying the more expensive game, or paying for it afterwards, is actually quite important to the  main plot and therefore should have been part of the basic game.  Because now we have a stated reason why there is so much mage unrest in Kirkwall and more importantly why Anders may have gravitated there in the first place. 

We know why there's unrest in Kirkwall: Meredith, and her top templars like Alrik and Kerras. Mages being made tranquil illegally, mages being raped and tortured, and people getting killed by Meredith's death squad. Leliana might have been privy to this if she'd actually done her job. Meredith needed to be replaced, but she's the reason why templars and mages united in "Best Served Cold."

And we already know why Anders headed to Kirkwall: Karl. It doesn't even seem that Anders joined the mage underground until after Karl dies.

Gervaise wrote...

Beyond his connection to Karl, which I have never been clear was a romantic relationship which originated in the Ferelden Circle, even if he knew him there and  Karl was later transferred to Kirkwall, there has to be a reason why someone whose prime motivation is now mage freedom heads for the main Templar base in the east. 

Anders explicitly states that Karl and him were romantically together in his personal quest after "Tranquility."

Gervaise wrote...

Yes, he can make a big political statement here but he is also much more likely to get arrested before he gets the chance. 

Cullen knows that Anders is in Kirkwall and that he's a mage (as his dialogue indicates if Hawke speaks to him after "Dissent" about the "Tranquil Solution"), but apparently Cullen assumes that Anders is still with the Grey Wardens.

Gervaise wrote...

And it also explains why Elthinia tells me she won't leave, when I haven't asked her to, just speak out to Meredith.   The longer speech she gives in response to Leliana's message also gives a substance to what I already thought was the case - she wants peace but she doubts that either side does or would listen to her because the stakes are too high. 

 
That doesn't explain why Elthina decided to do nothing repeatedly, like when Hawke informs her that her people are using her name to kidnap and kill people.

Gervaise wrote...

(Orsino wants peace but the underground group don't) 

The mage underground seems focused on rescuing mages from Meredith's tyranny, there's no evidence that the mage underground doesn't want peace. Even Hawke's quests with the mage underground (for Mistress Selby) focus on rescuing and protecting mages.

Gervaise wrote...

This raises a further query - if Fenris is present he suggests that it is a Tevinter inspired movement.  Now I know he is fixated on Tevinter but there do seem to be a lot of Tevinter people knocking around. 

Fenris is heavily biased against the mages, even if an apostate Hawke is helping him for several years against Tevinter slavers and Magister Danarius. He even blames Hawke and mages if he succumbs to the demon when Hawke is aiding Feynriel in the Fade.

Gervaise wrote...

Also you'd think he'd have more objection to wearing a Tevinter Chantry amulet from the fact that he has just witnessed what the owner of the amulet was willing to do to innocent slaves to save their own skin but instead his only problem is that it is against the law and you can get hung for wearing one - so wear it under my clothes - no problem.  

First, you're talking about the Friendship path with Hawke, who Anders has romantic feelings for. Second, Anders was pretty shocked when Hawke gives him the amulet. Anders doesn't even know what Hawke is giving him until he gets a clear look at it, and there's no evidence the amulet belonged to any of Danarius' allies.

Gervaise wrote...

This seems to suggest that his ultimate aim would be a set up like in Tevinter and why he doesn't want to believe Fenris' depiction of it - "surely not all mages resort to blood magic there?"

If Anders wanted to set up another Tevinter, he wouldn't say that the elves also need to rise up for their rights, or argue that people should be treated equally. Anders even accepts being imprisoned by Aveline under the idea of people being treated equally.

Gervaise wrote...

May be I'm seeing too much but I sense the DLC is going to be significant to the future plot.

I think Leliana's opinions in "Faith" had little to do with reality, and simply showcased her as being inept.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 14 août 2011 - 06:24 .

[Xilizhra]

Anders explicitly states that Karl and him were romantically together in his personal quest after "Tranquility."

If Hawke is male, at any rate.

[Carmen_Willow]

GreyWarden36 wrote...

Its all Justice who turned Anders into a bisexual terrorist
I miss the old funny and totally hetero Anders from awakening

Anders always had an angry streak. His humor goes beyond snark. He deflects his anger with that sarcastic wit, but it's there.  I kept wondering throughout DA: A when he was going to go off.  Didn't know I'd have to wait for the next game!

[Gervaise]

You miss my point.  I know Anders becomes steadily more insane but it did seem a bit too much that he thought he could single handedly  bring about something that there was no evidence that mages outside of Kirkwall really wanted.  I also found it hard to understand how the situation in Kirkwall could have such an enormous implact, not just on its closest neighbours but throughout Thedas.    This is not the age of modern communication and it is not as though mage Circles generally have easy access to outside information that the Chantry would not want them to hear.  Some mages do get away under either ending but they will now be apostates and so their ability to travel, let alone communicate with other Circles will be limited - its not as though they will have large funds available.  By contrast the Templars would have much better success in passing round information to tell their branches to keep a very careful eye on the local mages.  Yet within two years the entire Chantry system seems to have crumbled - all 14 Mage Circles have dissolved and even the Templars seem out of control.

There is also the speech that Varric makes when he says "We are defending our way of life here," if you support the Templars.  That seems a bit OTT.  Why exactly is it so imperative to the future of their way of life?  We have been fighting blood mages in and around Kirkwall for the last 7 years without it making an appreciable difference to the way the general populace do things and will the Circle annulled be so different to the Circle locked down to anyone but the Circle mages themselves and their relatives?   If we support Meredith, then at that point the outcome is likely to be she will continue to exercise supreme power, because she will argue there is still the risk of apostates, which is actually contrary to the accepted way of life in Kirkwall, which is to have a secular ruler.  No one knows that she will finally flip and allow you to step in as Vicount and since she has blocked your attempts in the past, there is no reason why she would allow it now just because you support her.

Forget about the Tevinter bit if you like, but an already established movement within the Circles, beyond the generally acknowledged fraternities, where mages have already been consulted and agree that all they need is a sign that it could succeed and they would be willing to risk it.    Then the total meltdown makes sense.   Wynne hinted at something in Awakening when she thought it so imperative that those entitled to should attend that mage gathering in Cumberland.    Then Leliana indicates as much as well.  To be honest not only does it seem more logical the success that Anders achieves in sparking the whole thing off but even if I don't approve of the bomb, at least I feel that he wasn't making a totally unilateral decision on behalf of all mages.  If you are a pro bomb action person, who thinks it justified, and supports Anders, at least you have some assurance, as you leave Kirkwall after defending the mages, that it does amount to more than just a handful of companions (most of whom leave you) and a score of renegade mages against the entire might of the Chantry.    And if you kill Anders, his defiant assertion about his cause living on is grounded in fact.

[Darkrider296]

I'll admit there are aspects to Ander's personality that can make him dark at times but thats why he needs the love of Hawke. Keeps his Justice side grounded for the most part and helps remind Anders of his humanity.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Gervaise wrote...

Was just watching the exchange with Sister Nightingale with Anders' present and when she says "If Kirkwall falls to magic, none of us is safe," his comment: "None of you."   Was that just directed at members of the Chantry or did it have a deeper meaning - like none of you non-mages?  Either way I found it rather chilling, particularly when I recall his comment "Justice is hard, justice is cold."   He clearly has forgotten that Sister Nightingale also help stopped the Blight in Ferelden and was good friends with the two mages he keeps banging on about.   No wonder he didn't care about any of the lay brothers and sisters in the chantry who also died alongside the Grand Cleric and the Templars there, not to mention any ordinary citizens who happened to be there at the time. 

To be honest, of all the mages we encounter in DA2, I find him by far and away the most scary, because he seems so nice and normal (when Justice is quiet) but underlying I sense this hard, cold, callous, utterly ruthless being - which the writers only allow to surface occasionally.  In fact I definitely would say he gives Meredith a good run for her money.   Why oh why are we not allowed to act on our instincts where he is concerned?

I actually wondered about this myself. Either answer is pretty scary, though. Far more than anything Leliana said by far. Refering to members of the Chantry does technically sound like what he talks about in the rest of the game but if he does refer to all non-mages, then that makes what Fenris feared about mages exactly true. It would pretty much also make him enemy to all humantiy that must be stopped as soon as possible.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 août 2011 - 05:44 .

[The Baconer]

I've never brought Anders along for this encounter, so this is the first time I've ever seen this dialogue. Anders, a mage supremacist?

My dislike of him is rapidly decreasing.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I've always taken his statement to be something more like "the divine's enforcers are a bunch of mindless jerks who will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes," rather than some blanket denouncement of all humanity and/or Andrasteism.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 19 août 2011 - 07:15 .

[aries1001]

What Sister Nightingale DLC? Here's the DLC packs for Dragon Age 2.

http://social.bioware.com/page/da2-dlc

As you can see, there is no Sister Nightingale DLC..... There's the Exiled Prince DLC, though...

As for Anders...

Well, after I refused to help him with his -ahem-problem, he went really really mad (in the game) and became very, very angry. After that as we were walking out, Anders said something and Varric said:
'quit it Justice, can Anders come out to play?'

This suggest to me that Anders is no more, there is only Justice, the spirit. Of which Merril once made this stunning comment: no spirits are good, they are all very dangerous...

I also had Anders present when Leliana made this comment mentioned above; I didn't reach much into the comment at the time, but maybe he meant that people who support the templars or some such will not be safe (in the game that is). Or maybe he meant something entirely different...