322 réponses à ce sujet

[SurelyForth]

Aeowyn wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Op
That's how I interpreted it. That Anders became so delusional, obsessed and full of hatred that he began to see things not in terms of mage vs templars. But rather mages vs non-mages.

And we have an indication of that in Awakening. He was impressed with the baroness and did not feel disgusted by her (indeed, he almost sounded sexually attracted to her). One could decide to help her out for pragmatic reasons while being repulsed by her (what I did). But Anders was impressed by a petty mage tyrant.

Say what now? He votes to side with the Baroness and not Justice, but it wasn't out of power, he just didn't want to be trapped in the Fade, and believed that they would have a bigger chance getting out of there if they sided with her.

Plus, in retrospect, it's pretty ironic that he'd side against Justice to save his own hide and then...he merges with Justice to fight on behalf of all mages.  It's pretty much the only time he's not a total paragon. He and Sigrun are the most compassionate companions in Awakening.

As for topic? I think Anders is referring to the Chantry. I think it's a silly moment of OooOOoooO! Foreshadowing! but what are you gonna do?

[Zjarcal]

Aeowyn wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
Say what now? He votes to side with the Baroness and not Justice, but it wasn't out of power, he just didn't want to be trapped in the Fade, and believed that they would have a bigger chance getting out of there if they sided with her.

He said he is impressed with her and that he likes strong women. He didnt even seem remotely disgusted with her.

Is this if you side with her?

Yes, when they enter her house (well the yard), there's some extra dialogue and he does indeed make a comment about finding her attractive.

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

Quething wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Only enemies of mage freedom are valid deliberate targets. Others might wind up being collateral damage

That may be the party line, but Janders' behavior doesn't bear it out. As early as Act II and the Ella issue, even, though I would say it doesn't get truly overwhelming until Act III where you've got Anders advocating slavery against people he doesn't like even in a moment of emotional control and calm.

Fenris is a threat to mages everywhere, and will side with the templars unless Hawke sticks out her neck for him to an incredible length.

No.

Fenris is exactly zero threat to mages while Hawke is there. Fenris even tells Sebastian to shut it when Sebastian wants him to turn in Merrill and Anders to the templars.

If and only if Fenris sides with Meredith at the endgame, he at that point becomes a threat to mages and is a valid target (I like to let Beth have the killing blow in that case, if I can arrange it). It is entirely possible for Fenris to, in fact, become a powerful ally of mages, and do a hell of a lot more to save the mages of Kirkwall than Anders, who sentenced them all to death or Tranquility. Prior to the endgame he is 100% talk, and opinions are, despite what some would have you believe, not actually a hanging crime.

Other allies of mages who Anders considers the enemy include Orsino, the one guy who's kept the Kirkwall Circle alive for the seven years Anders has been there, and Thrask, who Anders was perfectly happy to advocate killing.

Modifié par Quething, 12 août 2011 - 10:54 .

[leggywillow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Op
That's how I interpreted it. That Anders became so delusional, obsessed and full of hatred that he began to see things not in terms of mage vs templars. But rather mages vs non-mages.

And we have an indication of that in Awakening. He was impressed with the baroness and did not feel disgusted by her (indeed, he almost sounded sexually attracted to her). One could decide to help her out for pragmatic reasons while being repulsed by her (what I did). But Anders was impressed by a petty mage tyrant.

He says "I do love powerful women, and she's Orlesian too."  I think that was more a case of Awakening Anders being flippant and sex-obsessed.  His wording doesn't really convey genuine respect for a woman, especially given his smarmy tone.

ETA:  I think his different reactions to the Baronnes are more indicative of his general selfishness in Awakening.  If you don't side with the Baroness, he's absolutely terrified of her.  If you do side with her, he feels a bit more confident that events will unfold in their favor, and thus feels safe and comfortable enough to start joking around again.

Modifié par leggywillow, 12 août 2011 - 11:03 .

[Xilizhra]

Fenris is exactly zero threat to mages while Hawke is there. Fenris even tells Sebastian to shut it when Sebastian wants him to turn in Merrill and Anders to the templars.

While Hawke is there. That isn't a permanent state.

It is entirely possible for Fenris to, in fact, become a powerful ally of mages, and do a hell of a lot more to save the mages of Kirkwall than Anders, who sentenced them all to death or Tranquility. Prior to the endgame he is 100% talk, and opinions are, despite what some would have you believe, not actually a hanging crime.

Honestly, death or Tranquility in this Circle is practically a guarantee, especially as Meredith goes steadily crazier. I don't think Anders hurt their lot much, and at the end, as long as Hawke doesn't betray the mages, many escape and the worldwide revolution kicks off, and if that works out, Anders can take a lot of credit for it.

Other allies of mages who Anders considers the enemy include Orsino, the one guy who's kept the Kirkwall Circle alive for the seven years Anders has been there, and Thrask, who Anders was perfectly happy to advocate killing.

Thrask wasn't really an ally of mages back then, and I don't recall Anders ever saying Orsino was an enemy, just not doing much to help. Which... well, yes, that was stupid of him; Orsino was doing everything he could. Anders could do more because he had far more freedom of movement.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 août 2011 - 11:01 .

[Ryzaki]

...Hawke doesn't "betray" the mages. He owes them no loyalty. Nor they him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

leggywillow wrote...
He says "I do love powerful women, and she's Orlesian too."  I think that was more a case of Awakening Anders being flippant and sex-obsessed.  His wording doesn't really convey genuine respect for a woman, especially given his smarmy tone.

His dialogue if you don't side with her is more telling, since he's absolutely terrified of her.

He still didn't seem to give a damn about the non-mages that were oppressed by the mage (do you think, had it been mages oppressed by a non-mage, that he'd find the latter attractive?).
Had he shown at least some once of respect to the situation, I would have gotten a different impression.

[Gespenst]

Xilizhra wrote...

Leliana betrayed my Warden and everything she stood for.

Kind of this. What happened to you Leliana? You used to be cool! Well she seems to have gotten her act together by the epilogue... well maybe. Hopfully next time Bioware can vague it up a bit.

Xilizhra wrote...

Whatever Anders says here, I have no issues with.

I was going to disagree with you there but then I realised

1) You said "Whatever Anders says here" (not say ... does half an hour later)
2) Leliana basically made it a "them" and "us" thing there - not just mages and templars but mages and everyone else. If mages get free we're heading for a disaster of biblical proportions, real wrath of God type stuff - fire and brimstone coming down from the sky, rivers and seas boiling, forty years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanoes, human sacrifice, Grey Wardens and cats living together... Mass hysteria!

W.W.S, Leliana? What would Wynne say? ...Apart from "what does Biblical mean?"

Modifié par Gespenst, 12 août 2011 - 11:04 .

[Mr.House]

It's hard to betray something when you have no loyalty at all to them.

Or does being a mage or having a mage sibling mean you have to support total mage freedom and if you don't, that means you're a betrayer?

Modifié par Mr.House, 12 août 2011 - 11:03 .

[Aeowyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

leggywillow wrote...
He says "I do love powerful women, and she's Orlesian too."  I think that was more a case of Awakening Anders being flippant and sex-obsessed.  His wording doesn't really convey genuine respect for a woman, especially given his smarmy tone.

His dialogue if you don't side with her is more telling, since he's absolutely terrified of her.

He still didn't seem to give a damn about the non-mages that were oppressed by the mage (do you think, had it been mages oppressed by a non-mage, that he'd find the latter attractive?).
Had he shown at least some once of respect to the situation, I would have gotten a different impression.

I wouldn't have. Not from Awakening Anders. Awakening Anders was more concerned about saving his skin than caring about others - mages and non-mages alike. There's a banter between him and Justice regarding that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Hawke doesn't "betray" the mages. He owes them no loyalty. Nor they him.

I see revolutionary rethoric and tendencies are present even here. Makes me feel warm inside.

[Xilizhra]

Mr.House wrote...

It's hard to betray something when you have no loyalty at all to them.

Or does being a mage or having a mage sibling mean you have to support total mage freedom and if you don't, that means you're a betrayer?

Commiting genocide makes you something of one, yes. But "traitor" is far from the worst epithet I could use there, so I apologize.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aeowyn wrote...

I wouldn't have. Not from Awakening Anders. Awakening Anders was more concerned about saving his skin than caring about others - mages and non-mages alike. There's a banter between him and Justice regarding that.

That's what he says (to Justice and himself). That doesn't mean he does not have the anger of the mage situation inside him, otherwise Justice wouldn't have become vengeance.

I find it highly unlikely that Anders would find any Templar, let alone a petty Templar tyrant, attractive and impressive, the same way he saw the baroness.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I see revolutionary rethoric and tendencies are present even here. Makes me feel warm inside.

Aw. *hugs KoP*

There now your warm on the outside too!  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 août 2011 - 11:09 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He still didn't seem to give a damn about the non-mages that were oppressed by the mage (do you think, had it been mages oppressed by a non-mage, that he'd find the latter attractive?).

You mean like the templar woman he leers over in a conversation with Velanna, the one who keeps capturing him and dragging him back to the Circle? I dare say yes.

Either forgot about that, or never heard it.

Still, I doubt Awakening Anders would have found say Meredith attractive. And don't tell me she is more ugly than the ugly Baroness.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 août 2011 - 11:08 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I find it highly unlikely that Anders would find any Templar, let alone a petty Templar tyrant, attractive and impressive, the same way he saw the baroness.

Well he did seem to have that thing for Rylock... 

EDIT: 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 12 août 2011 - 11:12 .

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

It's hard to betray something when you have no loyalty at all to them.

Or does being a mage or having a mage sibling mean you have to support total mage freedom and if you don't, that means you're a betrayer?

Commiting genocide makes you something of one, yes. But "traitor" is far from the worst epithet I could use there, so I apologize.

You are commiting genocide by also killing all Templars. Or Templars not humans anymore and simply monsters to be crushed so mages can be free and let dangerous mages go crazy? Last time I checked, Hawke kills blood mages and demons, none of them where inocent. Last time I checked, you can try to tell Meredith to have mercy. Last time I checked you can flat out say you are helping the Templars to keep order, not because you hate mages or have bloodlust. There is no betraying.

Have you even done the Templar side? Have you even done all the conversations, talked to the characters, took time to understand characters like Fenris or where you too busy swooing after Orsino who has no character and as intresting as a nail in wood and supporting full freedom which will end in disaster. Just because all mages are not evil does not mean ALL mages deserve freedom, fighting for freedom which Anders is doing is futile.

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He still didn't seem to give a damn about the non-mages that were oppressed by the mage (do you think, had it been mages oppressed by a non-mage, that he'd find the latter attractive?).

You mean like the templar woman he leers over in a conversation with Velanna, the one who keeps capturing him and dragging him back to the Circle? I dare say yes.

Either forgot about that, or never heard it.

Still, I doubt Awakening Anders would have found say Meredith attractive. And don't tell me she is more ugly than the ugly Baroness.

It's this:

Velanna: You escaped your Circle, didn't you?
Anders: Several times. But they always found me using my phylactery. Not that I minded being caught much. They always assigned the same templar to track me down. Or perhaps she asked. I hope it's the latter. On those long trips back to the tower -- I in manacles, she glaring silently -- the air practically sizzled.
Velanna: You escaped your Circle, repeatedly, for a woman?
Anders: Well, not for her. But she made being caught more fun. That's me, always looking on the bright side.


But, yes, I have no doubt Awakening Anders would make non-committal sexual jokes about Meredith, especially given the opportunity for such jokes to demean her. He was joking flippantly, not marrying the woman.

Modifié par ipgd, 12 août 2011 - 11:12 .

[Lenimph]

bleetman wrote...



I also forgot to mention her line about 'tolerating' mages who want freedom. That one got my back up something fierce.

But she said that as an agent of the Chantry "we" being the Chantry tolerated a fraturnity group in the Circle that has been known to cause problems in the past (Origins) not necessarily herself. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I see revolutionary rethoric and tendencies are present even here. Makes me feel warm inside.

Aw. *hugs KoP*

There now your warm on the outside too!  

...I wasn't aware that committing genocide made one a traitor? 

Right that makes perfect sense. 

I was actually feeling cold a bit, so thanks!

"Traitor" would probably rank high in words used by revolutionaries, along side beautiful terminologies such as "inner enemy", "them", "reactionary" and....well "revolution."

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I was actually feeling cold a bit, so thanks! 

"Traitor" would probably rank high in words used by revolutionaries, along side beautiful terminologies such as "inner enemy", "them", "reactionary" and....well "revolution."

Glad to help.  

Let's not forget "if you're not with us you're against us" and "there's no neutrality." why yes it's somehow impossible for someone not to give a damn about you and your rights. IMPOSSIBLE! They must want to oppress you if they don't want to help! 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 août 2011 - 11:16 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...
But, yes, I have no doubt Awakening Anders would make non-committal sexual jokes about Meredith, especially given the opportunity for such jokes to demean her. He was joking flippantly, not marrying the woman.

Well that's just making Anders sound like a douche.

But I am still of the opinion that he didn't seem to care about the non-mages being oppressed by the mage. That, or he acted like a douche when he shouldn't have.

In any case, his comment to Leliana does not make me optimistic at all about his condition.

[SurelyForth]

Mr.House wrote...

You are commiting genocide by also killing all Templars. Or Templars not humans anymore and simply monsters to be crushed so mages can be free and let dangerous mages go crazy? Last time I checked, Hawke kills blood mages and demons, none of them where inocent. Last time I checked, you can try to tell Meredith to have mercy. Last time I checked you can flat out say you are helping the Templars to keep order, not because you hate mages or have bloodlust. There is no betraying.

Have you even done the Templar side? Have you even done all the conversations, talked to the characters, took time to understand characters like Fenris or where you too busy swooing after Orsino who has no character and as intresting as a nail in wood and supporting full freedom which will end in disaster. Just because all mages are not evil does not mean ALL mages deserve freedom, fighting for freedom which Anders is doing is futile.

Templars bcome templars...they take a vow to become templars. It's their job. And the templars are the ones attacking, not the ones being attacked. It's not genocide if it's self-defense.

Also, they are all adults. In the Rite, you're killing children, teens and the elderly. In their home, which happens to also be a prison that thet are forced into.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 12 août 2011 - 11:19 .

[Xilizhra]

You are commiting genocide by also killing all Templars. Or Templars not humans anymore and simply monsters to be crushed so mages can be free and let dangerous mages go crazy?

Templars aren't a racial/national group, they're soldiers in an army. Mages, on the other hand, are defined by a biological condition and can be basically considered the equivalent of a race.

Last time I checked, Hawke kills blood mages and demons, none of them where inocent.

Every last mage you kill there is a blood mage? I find this somewhat unlikely, but if we accept that, we must also realize that not only are many of them likely pushed into it by circumstance, they haven't been show to do anything other than defend themselves (except for that one in the Docks commanding a demon horde).

Last time I checked, you can try to tell Meredith to have mercy.

On three who never even try to defend themselves. Here's what I think of your "mercy": *spits*

Last time I checked you can flat out say you are helping the Templars to keep order, not because you hate mages or have bloodlust.

You can, and perchance be a pathetic moral coward instead of a ravening fiend. It doesn't really help your victims any.

Have you even done the Templar side?

No need, you people repeat it to me often enough.

Have you even done all the conversations, talked to the characters, took time to understand characters like Fenris or where you too busy swooing after Orsino who has no character and as intresting as a nail in wood and supporting full freedom which will end in disaster.

I have. I'm grateful that Fenris took the time to understand me in turn; I respect him more than I do any loyalist templar, and that includes Cullen. In fact, I respect him more than Sebastian, and maybe even Isabela.

Just because all mages are not evil does not mean ALL mages deserve freedom, fighting for freedom which Anders is doing is futile.

Chantry broken, templars rogue, Circles fighting on. I see little futility.