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[CulturalGeekGirl]

Mr.House wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

It's hard to betray something when you have no loyalty at all to them.

Or does being a mage or having a mage sibling mean you have to support total mage freedom and if you don't, that means you're a betrayer?

Commiting genocide makes you something of one, yes. But "traitor" is far from the worst epithet I could use there, so I apologize.

You are commiting genocide by also killing all Templars. Or Templars not humans anymore and simply monsters to be crushed so mages can be free and let dangerous mages go crazy? Last time I checked, Hawke kills blood mages and demons, none of them where inocent. Last time I checked, you can try to tell Meredith to have mercy. Last time I checked you can flat out say you are helping the Templars to keep order, not because you hate mages or have bloodlust. There is no betraying.

Have you even done the Templar side? Have you even done all the conversations, talked to the characters, took time to understand characters like Fenris or where you too busy swooing after Orsino who has no character and as intresting as a nail in wood and supporting full freedom which will end in disaster. Just because all mages are not evil does not mean ALL mages deserve freedom, fighting for freedom which Anders is doing is futile.

The templars are a military order. People are not "born" templars in a way that they cannot change. So, no, that isn't genocide by any remote definition. It counts as slaughter sure, but not as genocide. That's not how genocide works, or every war where you killed the attacking army would be genocide. Systematically killing everyone who believes in Andraste would be genocide, however, but nobody is proposing that. Not even my militantly anti-apartheid elves propose that.

Also, in the mage ending, you are fighting a battle of self-defense, while on the Templar side you are attacking. There's a difference there, as well. I've done the templar side, talked to everyone, had all the conversations and, in the end, you're still murdering an entire group of people born a particular way for no reason other than "because you can." The "keeping order" excuse is ludicrous, you could just publically execute Anders and then investigate, try, and execute some of the circle blood mages in order to "keep order," why do you have to agree to the murder of children in pursuit of your precious order? If the Templar ending was just publically executing Anders, and then defending yourself from a blodo mage attack, I could get behind that 100%. I'd probably side with the Templars more often than not if all I had to do was execute the mage actually responsible for the bombing. But that's not the ending, the ending is murdering hundreds of prisoners because you feel like it. It's participating in a Right that you know for a fact usually includes murdering children in their beds. Even if you don't have to do that personally, you know that that's what it entails when you start, and you have absolutely no reason to believe it will proceed otherwise this time.

I can side with the Templars at every step except for the very end. A Right of Annulment in response not to inherent corruption in the circle, but to the actions of an outside mage... that's messed up beyond belief.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 août 2011 - 11:24 .

[bleetman]

Lenimph wrote...

But she said that as an agent of the Chantry "we" being the Chantry tolerated a fraturnity group in the Circle that has been known to cause problems in the past (Origins) not necessarily herself. 

She could've just as easily said "the Chantry has... tolerated them" rather than including herself in it, but I suppose this is true.

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...
But, yes, I have no doubt Awakening Anders would make non-committal sexual jokes about Meredith, especially given the opportunity for such jokes to demean her. He was joking flippantly, not marrying the woman.

Well that's just making Anders sound like a douche.

But I am still of the opinion that he didn't seem to care about the non-mages being oppressed by the mage. That, or he acted like a douche when he shouldn't have.

In any case, his comment to Leliana does not make me optimistic at all about his condition.

Anders... is a douche. I don't think anyone was under the impression that he does not have the capacity to be hugely insensitive when he wants to be.

Awakening Anders didn't really care about anyone other than himself -- or, rather, didn't believe he had any ability to help anyone other than himself at the time, so he never bothered making a huge stink about anything. And he repeatedly establishes a habit of using humor to deflect attention away from his actual feelings; his comments about the Baroness were probably just him introducing an absurd comment into a terse situation to "lighten the mood" and make himself feel better about it. Given how the only other sexual partners of his we know of, Karl and Namaya, weren't exactly paragons of beauty, I doubt he was really so sexually single-minded as to have a genuine interest in the Baroness beyond maybe the most base of aesthetic appreciations. He was probably just being facetious.

Modifié par ipgd, 12 août 2011 - 11:24 .

[Ryzaki]

If you think the only reason to take the RoA is just because you can you obviously didn't bother thinking about the reasons to take the RoA. I certainly didn't do it "because I could.".

"Lesser evil." (rather than an exalted march on everyone) is one such reason. (And the one many of my templar siders choose).  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 août 2011 - 11:25 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Ryzaki wrote...

If you think the only reason to take the RoA is just because you can you obviously didn't bother thinking about the reasons to take the RoA. I certainly didn't do it "because I could."

Explain to me then how it keeps order better than trying and executing Anders would, and then going into the gallows and saying "This is not a Right of Annulment, any Mages who surrender will be spared" would, killing only mages who were rioting on the streets and those who refused to surrender.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 août 2011 - 11:25 .

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

If you think the only reason to take the RoA is just because you can you obviously didn't bother thinking about the reasons to take the RoA. I certainly didn't do it "because I could."

There are many reasons, but I have no respect for any Hawke who takes them to heart.

[Mr.House]

SurelyForth wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

It's hard to betray something when you have no loyalty at all to them.

Or does being a mage or having a mage sibling mean you have to support total mage freedom and if you don't, that means you're a betrayer?

Commiting genocide makes you something of one, yes. But "traitor" is far from the worst epithet I could use there, so I apologize.

You are commiting genocide by also killing all Templars. Or Templars not humans anymore and simply monsters to be crushed so mages can be free and let dangerous mages go crazy? Last time I checked, Hawke kills blood mages and demons, none of them where inocent. Last time I checked, you can try to tell Meredith to have mercy. Last time I checked you can flat out say you are helping the Templars to keep order, not because you hate mages or have bloodlust. There is no betraying.

Have you even done the Templar side? Have you even done all the conversations, talked to the characters, took time to understand characters like Fenris or where you too busy swooing after Orsino who has no character and as intresting as a nail in wood and supporting full freedom which will end in disaster. Just because all mages are not evil does not mean ALL mages deserve freedom, fighting for freedom which Anders is doing is futile.

Templars bcome templars...they take a vow to become templars. It's their job. And the templars are the ones attacking, not the ones being attacked in their own homes.

Also, they are all adults. In the Rite, you're killing children, teens and the elderly. In their home, which happens to also be a prison that thet are forced into.

You do know alot of Templars where raised in the Chantry and given to the order very young, with no real choice, right? You do know some like Cullen, Meredith and others have had bad experince eith mages and lost things. People who support total freedom are no better then people who are pro templars. They want to run things or let chao commence.

Order stays in power, more death will happen.

Mages have total freedom, chao will happen.

That is all there is to it, compromise is needed, and Anders blew that away when he killed a woman well loved, no matter how useless she was. You kill someone that the majority love and hell will happen. Any man,woman or child that dies in this war can be blamed at Anders feet.

[Giggles_Manically]

/finds a fun place to watch the show.

[Ryzaki]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

If you think the only reason to take the RoA is just because you can you obviously didn't bother thinking about the reasons to take the RoA. I certainly didn't do it "because I could."

Explain to me then how it keeps order better than trying and executing Anders would, and then going into the gallows and saying "This is not a Right of Annulment, any Mages who surrender will be spared" would.

You want me to explain how the RoA keeps order better than something that's not an actual choice? Sure it doesn't keep order better but...well it's not a choice. Just like the ending I'd really pick "f*ck all of you I'm leaving." isn't a choice. Or how killing Anders before he blows up the damn chantry in the first place isn't a choice. 

How does siding with the mages keep order better than the RoA? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 août 2011 - 11:29 .

[Xilizhra]

You do know alot of Templars where raised in the Chantry and given to the order very young, with no real choice, right? You do know some like Cullen, Meredith and others have had bad experince eith mages and lost things. People who support total freedom are no better then people who are pro templars. They want to run things or let chao commence.

Fenris lost everything to mages, repeatedly, throughout his whole life. Look at what he can become by the end of the game. And then there's Keran, imprisoned and tortured by mages and demons, and still fighting for mage freedom.

That is all there is to it, compromise is needed, and Anders blew that away when he killed a woman well loved, no matter how useless she was. You kill someone that the majority love and hell will happen. Any man,woman or child that dies in this war can be blamed at Anders feet.

There could never be compromise while the Chantry is in power. I don't know whether it was a necessity, what Anders did, but I'll damn well make as much use of it as I can.

[AtreiyaN7]

I'd like to point out that both before and after this Leliana incident, Anders was apparently still running his clinic and providing services for people who were probably almost all non-mages. If he suddenly hated all non-mages, I rather doubt that he would have continued to care for the sick and injured.

I believe that his comment to Leliana was specifically directed at members of the Chantry and Templars - the ones directly responsible for oppressing mages. Justice may have been twisted into Vengeance, but I don't think he would go after a non-mage unless provoked. However, if Vengenace had become twisted enough to lump non-mages into the category of agents of oppression, I suppose it's possible that he'd lump "normal" people into the category of agents of mage oppression, but I didn't see any actual indication that he'd gone quite that far (sure, he/they were willing to blow up the Chantry, but I think any civilian casualties outside Chantry members were collateral damage).

[Gespenst]

Ryzaki wrote...

If you think the only reason to take the RoA is just because you can you obviously didn't bother thinking about the reasons to take the RoA. I certainly didn't do it "because I could.".

No, I did it for the Trophy. And felt terrible about it. This is the only game that I've Platinumed and it's kind of tainted now...

Modifié par Gespenst, 12 août 2011 - 11:30 .

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

If you think the only reason to take the RoA is just because you can you obviously didn't bother thinking about the reasons to take the RoA. I certainly didn't do it "because I could."

There are many reasons, but I have no respect for any Hawke who takes them to heart.

You do know what would have happen had the Templars not step in when Anders did what he did right? The people of the city would have attacked mages and the circle, causing more death. Sometimes sacerfices need to be made, even the hard ones. Mages from a corrupted circle or people from a screwed up city, losing respect because a Hawke refuses to help the mages when Hawke has good reasons not to and can do more good and restore what happen because of one idiot mage is far better then ruining around with mages fighting a war that even if won, something like the Chantry will be made in the future again and the cycle will continue. Enjoy your war, when a couple of crazy blood mages cause hell and kill inocents when they have freedom and people are scared they have one person to blame, your Hawke.

[Ryzaki]

Gespenst wrote...

No, I did it for the Trophy. And felt terrible about it. This is the only game that I've Platinumed and it's kind of tainted now...

I'm glad I'm not an achievement wh*re. 

...Uh..no offense. 

[Sinaxi]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I'd like to point out that both before and after this Leliana incident, Anders was apparently still running his clinic and providing services for people who were probably almost all non-mages. If he suddenly hated all non-mages, I rather doubt that he would have continued to care for the sick and injured.

How dare you bring evidence like that into this thread. Don't you know Anders is a ruthless, cold-hearted Mage tyrant?!

[Xilizhra]

You do know what would have happen had the Templars not step in when Anders did what he did right? The people of the city would have attacked mages and the circle, causing more death.

Yes, something that clearly could never have been avoided by, I don't know, executing the who did it and admitted to it?
Plus, Kirkwall is the only city where the citizens actually aid the mages against the templars.

Sometimes sacerfices need to be made, even the hard ones

My point exactly.

Enjoy your war, when a couple of crazy blood mages cause hell and kill inocents when they have freedom and people are scared they have one person to blame, your Hawke.

They have the Chantry to blame for it. The Chantry sowed the wind, and now they reap the whirlwind.

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

There could never be compromise while the Chantry is in power. I don't know whether it was a necessity, what Anders did, but I'll damn well make as much use of it as I can.

You don't know that at all, The grand Cleric even says surly a compromise can be reached and Orsino is not an unreasonable person. You don't know what would have happen  in the chantry before Anders decided to spark something.

Also people like Thrask and karen where not fighting for mage freedom, they where fighting to get rid of the Knigh-Commander Had they succed and Meredith lost command, the circle would still be there and mages would still be in "prison". Did you miss that little number or just ignoring it?

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

They have the Chantry to blame for it. The Chantry sowed the wind, and now they reap the whirlwind.

The Chantry did not blow up a building, a mage by the name of Anders did, destorying the chance of compromise for ever and leaving mages only two choices. Fight or die.

[Gespenst]

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm glad I'm not an achievement wh*re.

I wouldn't have even bothered but I got 80% on my first playthrough! 80! The closest I've come to that before was Fallout 3 (61%) and I've played that loads of times... I might as well go for 100% I though...

Ryzaki wrote...

...Uh..no offense. 

That's not how offense works. You can't call someone a ****, say "no offense" and then expect it not to cause any.

None taken.

[SurelyForth]

Mr.House wrote...

You do know what would have happen had the Templars not step in when Anders did what he did right? The people of the city would have attacked mages and the circle, causing more death. Sometimes sacerfices need to be made, even the hard ones. Mages from a corrupted circle or people from a screwed up city, losing respect because a Hawke refuses to help the mages when Hawke has good reasons not to and can do more good and restore what happen because of one idiot mage is far better then ruining around with mages fighting a war that even if won, something like the Chantry will be made in the future again and the cycle will continue. Enjoy your war, when a couple of crazy blood mages cause hell and kill inocents when they have freedom and people are scared they have one person to blame, your Hawke.

Or! And here's a mother****ing thought, Meredith/the templars could have taken Anders who admitted to bombing the Chantry, acting alone, and offered himself up into custody and publicly executed him in a show of reasonibility that might have actually made the mages feel like there was some lines even Meredith wouldn't cross to get at them.

I mean...Sebastian gets it. I don't see why nobody else there does. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 12 août 2011 - 11:37 .

[Xilizhra]

Mr.House wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There could never be compromise while the Chantry is in power. I don't know whether it was a necessity, what Anders did, but I'll damn well make as much use of it as I can.

You don't know that at all, The grand Cleric even says surly a compromise can be reached and Orsino is not an unreasonable person. You don't know what would have happen  in the chantry before Anders decided to spark something.

Also people like Thrask and karen where not fighting for mage freedom, they where fighting to get rid of the Knigh-Commander Had they succed and Meredith lost command, the circle would still be there and mages would still be in "prison". Did you miss that little number or just ignoring it?

Elthina was either actively supporting Meredith's tyranny or too weak to oppose it, meaning that the blame can be laid at her feet or at the Divine's for not fixing the situation. Elthina is worse than useless.

As for Thrask and Keran, it's true that they couldn't fix everything, but they were doing what they could to help Kirkwall. Better than Cullen, certainly.

[Ryzaki]

Gespenst wrote...

I wouldn't have even bothered but I got 80% on my first playthrough! 80! The closest I've come to that before was Fallout 3 (61%) and I've played that loads of times... I might as well go for 100% I though...

Yeah...that's insanity. I just couldn't. 

That's not how offense works. You can't call someone a ****, say "no offense" and then expect it not to cause any.

None taken.

XD

[ipgd]

Mr.House wrote...

You don't know that at all, The grand Cleric even says surly a compromise can be reached and Orsino is not an unreasonable person. You don't know what would have happen  in the chantry before Anders decided to spark something.

Elthina repeatedly demonstrates nothing beyond timidity and an unwillingless to act in any proactive capacity, so I'm not sure why you would take her word for it. She kept saying that, for a good seven years, and yet Kirkwall steadily declined regardless -- because she did nothing.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Mr.House wrote...
You do know alot of Templars where raised in the Chantry and given to the order very young, with no real choice, right? You do know some like Cullen, Meredith and others have had bad experince eith mages and lost things. People who support total freedom are no better then people who are pro templars. They want to run things or let chao commence.

Order stays in power, more death will happen.

Mages have total freedom, chao will happen.

That is all there is to it, compromise is needed, and Anders blew that away when he killed a woman well loved, no matter how useless she was. You kill someone that the majority love and hell will happen. Any man,woman or child that dies in this war can be blamed at Anders feet.

Many dictators are loved by the majority of their people. Many political leaders who commit atrocities are beloved while they do so. That's how they get to be political leaders.

But that isn't the question. The question you asked is "is killing people in a military order genocide" and the answer to that is "no." It doesn't fit any of the definitions of genocide, which are pretty strongly defined, and there are some beliefs that commonly characterize genocide. They include: 

"One group denies the humanity of the other group."
"It is "extermination" to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human"
"The perpetrators... deny that they committed any crimes"

None of that is happening on the mage side, but it is everywhere on the Templar side. Anders admits that the chantry was a crime, that he may indeed have to pay for. I don't believe he ever says that the templars are all inherently less than human, while many many templars say that about mages.

I think the current chantry system harms people like Cullen almost as much as it harms people like Anders. Brainwashing, indoctrination into a belief system based on fear, exposure to propaganda from childhood... that's not good either. But you don't have to kill Cullen, or Carver. You only have to kill the templars who are so obsessed with murdering every single mage in the gallows that they will stop at nothing to do so.

I also find it interesting how everyone believes that Anders single-handedly started a war. It takes rather more than one man to start a war... wars only start if a whole lot of people are willing to have one. Why you practically need an army to start a war! If this war wasn't really close to happening anyway, it could have been simply averted by publically executing Anders. A lot of rebellions are quickly put down by executing the ring-leaders, the only time that doesn't work is if the people are ready to fight, an entire army's worth of people are willing to start the war.

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There could never be compromise while the Chantry is in power. I don't know whether it was a necessity, what Anders did, but I'll damn well make as much use of it as I can.

You don't know that at all, The grand Cleric even says surly a compromise can be reached and Orsino is not an unreasonable person. You don't know what would have happen  in the chantry before Anders decided to spark something.

Also people like Thrask and karen where not fighting for mage freedom, they where fighting to get rid of the Knigh-Commander Had they succed and Meredith lost command, the circle would still be there and mages would still be in "prison". Did you miss that little number or just ignoring it?

Elthina was either actively supporting Meredith's tyranny or too weak to oppose it, meaning that the blame can be laid at her feet or at the Divine's for not fixing the situation. Elthina is worse than useless.

As for Thrask and Keran, it's true that they couldn't fix everything, but they were doing what they could to help Kirkwall. Better than Cullen, certainly.

Yes, a man who left his daughter to die, a person who worked with Grace and supported the kidnaping a GW if your siblnig iso ne.

Yes that's what Kirkwall needs.