322 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Yes, a man who left his daughter to die, a person who worked with Grace and supported the kidnaping a GW if your siblnig iso ne.

Yes that's what Kirkwall needs.

Better than the alternative.

[hoorayforicecream]

Xilizhra wrote...

You do know alot of Templars where raised in the Chantry and given to the order very young, with no real choice, right? You do know some like Cullen, Meredith and others have had bad experince eith mages and lost things. People who support total freedom are no better then people who are pro templars. They want to run things or let chao commence.

Fenris lost everything to mages, repeatedly, throughout his whole life. Look at what he can become by the end of the game. And then there's Keran, imprisoned and tortured by mages and demons, and still fighting for mage freedom.

Proof that he's fighting for mage freedom? I always thought he and Thrask wanted to depose Meredith, which is a different kettle of fish entirely.

[Ryzaki]

That's the thing about DA2. There is no evil choice no matter what some people would like to believe.

Now if Hawke could support Alrik's "tranquil solution" and give him/herself a sexslave mage or two...then there'd be an evil choice.

I'm still kind of bummed there's not a side with the guards/neutral/walk away ending. That I would've gladly took.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 août 2011 - 11:46 .

[Quething]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
If this war wasn't really close to happening anyway, it could have been simply averted by publically executing Anders.

... what, exactly, makes you think that it wouldn't have been? Had that been an option on this railroad to Hell?

[Mr.House]

Anything that does not agree with pro mage is evil in Xils eyes, no matter reasoning. She probably would hug Quentin and though he was ok.

[Xilizhra]

Proof that he's fighting for mage freedom? I always thought he and Thrask wanted to depose Meredith, which is a different kettle of fish entirely.

Fine. Not fighting to oppress mages like Cullen.

My rogue Hawke saw the RoA as an injustice, but that wasn't his choice to make. It was already set in motion. Since he estimated the mages couldn't possibly overcome the templars and the people of Kirkwall both, the best thing he could do was limit the scale of the damage as much as he could and protect as many lives as he could. Even considering the lives of the mages alone-- siding with the templars and sparing what mages he can saves more mage lives than siding with the mages, going down in a blaze of righteous glory, and letting the templars annul all mages, including the ones he could have saved. Even if you have no respect for the lives of templars and Kirkwall citizens who would suffer more greatly from siding with the mages, choosing the templars is still the better choice from this point of view, because it's better for the mages to have some of them survive, than none.

So your rogue Hawke is blessed with a pitiable lack of foresight that leads him into genocide. Fair enough.

In any case, siding with the templars does nothing to help the greatest danger to the populace, which is the demons popping up everywhere (one would think that demons would be considered more of a threat than mages, but no one ever accused them of having your priorities straight). Presumably the city guard is fighting them off while the templars are off committing mass murder.

[Mr.House]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...



Proof that he's fighting for mage freedom? I always thought he and Thrask wanted to depose Meredith, which is a different kettle of fish entirely.

You'd be right. They still wanted the Circle, just have it run by someone sane and not be a prison.

Yup, which is why it's kinda amusing that full freedom supports support Thrask yet his agenda is still against theres.

[jlb524]

Xilizhra wrote...

You do know what would have happen had the Templars not step in when Anders did what he did right? The people of the city would have attacked mages and the circle, causing more death.

Yes, something that clearly could never have been avoided by, I don't know, executing the who did it and admitted to it?
Plus, Kirkwall is the only city where the citizens actually aid the mages against the templars.

Also, I'm sure a significant amount of Kirkwall's citizens like, ya know, have friends/family in the Circle.

I can't follow the line of logic that the citizens would be rioting in the streets unless they slaughter every last mage in the city including possibly their own family members.

[ipgd]

Even if you have no respect for the lives of templars and Kirkwall citizens who would suffer more greatly from siding with the mages, choosing the templars is still the better choice from this point of view, because it's better for the mages to have some of them survive, than none.

Well, if your Hawke is uninformed as to what exactly the Right of Annulment entails, sure -- but that is what the RoA is. Every single mage is to be killed. Those who surrender may receive Tranquility, at best. But that's why the RoA is the RoA and not the templars defending themselves against a violent revolt, because it explicitly entails killing every single mage in the Circle down to the last child. There's a Gaider post somewhere that says mages who surrender to a RoA would still be made Tranquil, let's see if I can find that.

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fine. Not fighting to oppress mages like Cullen.

.

Even Cullen says the order has to change, and he is against with what the Knight-Commander does. You can try to convince your self that Cullen is evil incarnated but he is not, he is the only Templar that makes sense in that hellhole called Kirkwall.

[SurelyForth]

Quething wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
If this war wasn't really close to happening anyway, it could have been simply averted by publically executing Anders.

... what, exactly, makes you think that it wouldn't have been? Had that been an option on this railroad to Hell?

Mostly because the mages wouldn't have rebelled had they not had the Rite forced on them in Kirkwall. That is the uprising that motivates the other Circles (they don't even have to win, just the act of them fighting back is enough to spur the other Circles on). Had Anders been executed for a crime he admitted to committing, nobody could possibly fault anyone that decision AND, as I said before, it would show that the Chantry (the "Chantry" but really, Meredith) could see the difference between one guilty mage and all mages. 

[Xilizhra]

Mr.House wrote...

Anything that does not agree with pro mage is evil in Xils eyes, no matter reasoning. She probably would hug Quentin and though he was ok.

Most of it I'll say is more misguided. Pro-genocide? Well, yes, that's evil.

Even Cullen says the order has to change, and he is against with what the Knight-Commander does. You can try to convince your self that Cullen is evil incarnated but he is not, he is the only Templar that makes sense in that hellhole called Kirkwall.

Keran? Hello?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 août 2011 - 11:52 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Quething wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
If this war wasn't really close to happening anyway, it could have been simply averted by publically executing Anders.

... what, exactly, makes you think that it wouldn't have been? Had that been an option on this railroad to Hell?

Because, according to Varric, it was either the slaugher of the Right of Annulment or the resistance to the right of Annulment that caused the mages to decide to revolt.

You can doubt Varric if you want to, sure, but until I see evidence to the contrary I trust him. He has no reason to lie about that, especially not to Cassandra. Actually preventing Meredith from calling the Right may well have stopped the war, but you can execute Anders and nobody cares.

[bleetman]

jlb524 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You
do know what would have happen had the Templars not step in when Anders
did what he did right? The people of the city would have attacked mages
and the circle, causing more death.

Yes, something that clearly could never have been avoided by, I don't know, executing the who did it and admitted to it?
Plus, Kirkwall is the only city where the citizens actually aid the mages against the templars.

Also, I'm sure a significant amount of Kirkwall's citizens like, ya know, have friends/family in the Circle.

I can't follow the line of logic that the citizens would be rioting in the streets unless they slaughter every last mage in the city including possibly their own family members.

Not the mention the Templars are supposedly there to protect the Circle from the population as much as the other way around. Anyone attacking the Gallows should have to go through the Templars first, which doesn't seem all that likely to happen.

Modifié par bleetman, 12 août 2011 - 11:53 .

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

Keran? Hello?

He could have lost his Templar stasus.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Gervaise wrote...

No wonder he didn't care about any of the lay brothers and sisters in the chantry who also died alongside the Grand Cleric and the Templars there, not to mention any ordinary citizens who happened to be there at the time. 

To be honest, of all the mages we encounter in DA2, I find him by far and away the most scary, because he seems so nice and normal (when Justice is quiet) but underlying I sense this hard, cold, callous, utterly ruthless being - which the writers only allow to surface occasionally.

Sorry if I missed this as being quoted before, but this conversation immediately sprang to mind:

• Anders: There is justice in the world.
• Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
• Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
• Anders: Yes.

And the Act III banters in which he's not prodding companions on the mage/templar issue (which admittedly comes up a lot), Anders seems to know exactly the magnitude of what he's planning and the cost to both himself and others - and isn't exactly being hard and callous about it.  He sounds like it's breaking his heart.

So we can argue all day long about whether Anders was right in blowing up the Chantry, whether he actually helped the mages by doing so, whether Hawke siding with mages or templars is better, or whether Hawke should shank the guy and for what reasons...

but he doesn't not care about the regular people who will be lost.

[Mr.House]

bleetman wrote...

Not the mention the Templars are supposedly there to protect the Circle from the population as much as the other way around. Anyone attacking the Gallows should have to go through the Templars first, which doesn't seem all that likely to happen.

That's also beleving the Templars would stop them after what happen with the chantry. Emotions run high, more so when someone well loved is killed by something part of a select group. Misguided and stupid actions yes, but anger does overcome logic.

[Xilizhra]

Filament wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So your rogue Hawke is blessed with a pitiable lack of foresight that leads him into genocide. Fair enough.

Not genocide. He fought those who fought him (who were mostly abominations...). He spared them when the opportunity was available. And if you put yourself into the role, having such foresight would be out of character. At least it felt that way for me. It's presented as if siding with the mages is shooting for long odds.

Not entirely. The city's fallen into demonic chaos, the guard is neutral, the templars are as shocked as everyone else and don't seem to be tremendously well-coordinated, and the only goal of the mages is to escape, not destroy the templars.

Plus, you're still supporting and siding with the genocidal army.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 août 2011 - 11:57 .

[Lenimph]

bleetman wrote...


She could've just as easily said "the Chantry has... tolerated them" rather than including herself in it, but I suppose this is true.

Why would she exclude herself like that when we already know that some of Leliana's core beliefs clash with the Chantry at face value but that doesn't get in the way of going back to work for Dorothea.  I think the fact she's siding with the Chantry is probably the most upsetting to people who romanced and hardened her, however, if someone's warden really hated the Chantry that much then why fall for Leliana in the first place and expect it to work out? 

This is just babble though. This is an thread about Ander's not Lels xD 

[jlb524]

Mr.House wrote...

bleetman wrote...
Not the mention the Templars are supposedly there to protect the Circle from the population as much as the other way around. Anyone attacking the Gallows should have to go through the Templars first, which doesn't seem all that likely to happen.

That's also beleving the Templars would stop them after what happen with the chantry. Emotions run high, more so when someone well loved is killed by something part of a select group. Misguided and stupid actions yes, but anger does overcome logic.

If it's their job to protect mages (I should say, innocent mages b/c they had nothing to do with what Anders did) then they should do that regardless of how angry people are.

[Quething]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Quething wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
If this war wasn't really close to happening anyway, it could have been simply averted by publically executing Anders.

... what, exactly, makes you think that it wouldn't have been? Had that been an option on this railroad to Hell?

Because, according to Varric, it was either the slaugher of the Right of Annulment or the resistance to the right of Annulment that caused the mages to decide to revolt.

You can doubt Varric if you want to, sure, but until I see evidence to the contrary I trust him. He has no reason to lie about that, especially not to Cassandra. Actually preventing Meredith from calling the Right may well have stopped the war, but you can execute Anders and nobody cares.

??

The claim was that "Anders is not to blame for the war, the war was immenent anyway. As proof: if Anders had been publically executed, the war would have happened anyway."

This is not proof. It is an unsupported and unsupportable claim. It is impossible to execute Anders publically. It is only possible for him to be murder-knifed on a box in front of six people who then likely disappear on Izzy's boat.

If Anders had been executed publically, instead of Meredith calling for the Rite like the idol-crazed loony the plot demands she be and completely ignoring the actual criminal, there is every reason to believe there would be no war. Because, in fact, as you say, it was the RoA that started the war, and Anders deliberately provoked the RoA, in an intentional bid to start the war. That's exactly his plan! He even explains that to you right there in the climax! There would be no war without Anders! That's why he did what he did! Gratuitous exclamation point!

Modifié par Quething, 13 août 2011 - 12:03 .

[bleetman]

Mr.House wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Not the mention the Templars are supposedly there to protect the Circle from the population as much as the other way around. Anyone attacking the Gallows should have to go through the Templars first, which doesn't seem all that likely to happen.

That's also beleving the Templars would stop them after what happen with the chantry. Emotions run high, more so when someone well loved is killed by something part of a select group. Misguided and stupid actions yes, but anger does overcome logic.

Oh, I know, I'm just saying if they didn't invoke the RoA it doesn't seem particularly likely that Kirwall at large would descend on the Gallows. Between those who're sympathetic to mages and theoretically having to go through the Templars first, there's a lot of deterrents in play.

Incidentally, what does Bethany say if you use a post-campaign save to import into Legacy? She briefly mentioned being saved by Templars when I used a start-of-act-three import.