322 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not entirely. The city's fallen into demonic chaos, the guard is neutral, the templars are as shocked as everyone else and don't seem to be tremendously well-coordinated, and the only goal of the mages is to escape, not destroy the templars.

Plus, you're still supporting and siding with the genocidal army.

The alternative is to help the mages escape, which, unless you somehow have some sort of foolproof possession-detection system (which admittedly would be really, really useful), would invariably lead to demonic chaos (which, as you said, is inevitable) spreading elsewhere.

I'm pretty sure it's not the templars summoning demons and turning into abominations, after all. 

It's not a clear-cut answer. Both choices suck. Help the mages, release a bunch of abominations and innocents will die. Help the templars, kill a bunch of innocents along with the guilty. It's tragic, either way.

[Mr.House]

jlb524 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

bleetman wrote...
Not the mention the Templars are supposedly there to protect the Circle from the population as much as the other way around. Anyone attacking the Gallows should have to go through the Templars first, which doesn't seem all that likely to happen.

That's also beleving the Templars would stop them after what happen with the chantry. Emotions run high, more so when someone well loved is killed by something part of a select group. Misguided and stupid actions yes, but anger does overcome logic.

If it's their job to protect mages (I should say, innocent mages b/c they had nothing to do with what Anders did) then they should do that regardless of how angry people are.

Not every mage in that circle is inocent, we know the circle is corrupted well before the battle thanks to Thrask and his little group of kidnapping morons.

Let's say Templar Bob is guarding the Gallows, his mother was in the chantry when it exploded and he knew people where comnig to the Gallows to cause hell, what do you think he would do? Protect a group that the killer belonged to or get revange? Emotion will overcome proper logic and some Templars will help. The Knight-Commander has been wanting to do the RoA forawhile, however not every Templar who supports her is doing it because she said so, they are doing it for revange, and some like Cullen are doing it because they have no choice.

Modifié par Mr.House, 13 août 2011 - 12:06 .

[Xilizhra]

The alternative is to help the mages escape, which, unless you somehow have some sort of foolproof possession-detection system (which admittedly would be really, really useful), would invariably lead to demonic chaos (which, as you said, is inevitable) spreading elsewhere.

I'm pretty sure it's not the templars summoning demons and turning into abominations, after all.

I think part of the problem is Anders' bomb and the other part is the templar's slaughter. There's only one instance of a mage actually summoning demons; most are just popping through the Veil unaided, and it's surely in absolute shreds from both those factors.

It's not a clear-cut answer. Both choices suck. Help the mages, release a bunch of abominations and innocents will die. Help the templars, kill a bunch of innocents along with the guilty. It's tragic, either way.

The abominations here aren't exactly subtle. They're easy enough to spot and kill, and they try to kill Hawke no matter whom she sides with in any case.

[jlb524]

Mr.House wrote...
Not every mage in that circle is inocent, we know the circle is corrupted well before the battle thanks to Thrask and his little group of kidnapping morons.

Then the templars should have investigated this and done something about the bad mages.  I guess killing every single mage in the Circle works too.  

Mr.House wrote...
Let's say Templar Bob is guarding the Gallows, his mother was in the chantry when it exploded and he knew people where comnig to the Gallows to cause hell, what do you think he would do? Protect a group that the killer belonged to or get revange? Emotion will overcome proper logic and some Templars will help. The Knight-Commander has been wanting to do the RoA forawhile, however not every Templar who supports her is doing it because she said so, they are doing it for revange, and some like Cullen are doing it because they have no choice.

I doubt Templar Bob is the only one guarding the mages.

You don't know the motives of each Templar...perhaps some were doing it out of revenge.  You also seem to keep forgetting the possibility that Templar Joe could have a young daughter in the Circle.  Yes, some people lost loved ones in the Chantry, but other people have loved ones in the Circle.

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think part of the problem is Anders' bomb and the other part is the templar's slaughter. There's only one instance of a mage actually summoning demons; most are just popping through the Veil unaided, and it's surely in absolute shreds from both those factors.

Hard to tell what's actually happening in-canon there and what's just the game's bizarre whack-a-mole demon combat system in action, though.

The combat system is a big part of the problem in general, I think. The totally arbitrary trash mob nature of abominations (when just one is supposed to, by lore, be able to carelessly flatten a whole phalanx of templars) makes it hard to credit any real danger to the idea that a few would escape.

Of course there's also the question of why Hawke just post-Jenga would have any reason to think that anyone in the Circle at all is a blood mage or possessed. All the blood mages and abominations she's met are apostates. Only people she knows that are actually in the Circle that point are Alain, Orsino and potentially Beth, and Harvestino notwithstanding, she has no reason to believe any of them are even a remote threat to anyone else.

[Gespenst]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah...that's insanity. I just couldn't.

Oh, it gets worse.

After my warrior and rogue playthrough I looked at what I had left.

Mass Exodus (Get to Kirkwall as all three classes)
Crowning Glory (Side With the Templars)
Mage Hunter - or as I will now call it:

Get an innocent man sent to jail for a crime he didn't commit and have his sister thrown onto the street to starve, turn a group of apostates over to an insane templar who'd kill the good templar that's trying to help them and flay them alive as soon as look at them, send a bright and good natured young mage to the circle and later destroy his mind while he sleeps and ... make a reasonably sound tactical decision when Kirkwall's keep is occupied by enemy forces ... achievement.

It's actually worse than I imagined. If I ever want to feel bad about myself again I'll play a real templar sympathiser.

[hoorayforicecream]

Xilizhra wrote...

The alternative is to help the mages escape, which, unless you somehow have some sort of foolproof possession-detection system (which admittedly would be really, really useful), would invariably lead to demonic chaos (which, as you said, is inevitable) spreading elsewhere.

I'm pretty sure it's not the templars summoning demons and turning into abominations, after all.

I think part of the problem is Anders' bomb and the other part is the templar's slaughter. There's only one instance of a mage actually summoning demons; most are just popping through the Veil unaided, and it's surely in absolute shreds from both those factors.

Proof that they're just coming in through the veil? They could easily have been summoned by desperate mages or Resolutionists. If they were coming through the veil, I'd probably have expected them to comment about it at least. What they *did* show was desperate mages and demon summoning. I assumed that since they showed me *that*, there was more of that going on. I could be wrong, but I didn't see any evidence that it was demons crossing over directly from the Fade.

It's not a clear-cut answer. Both choices suck. Help the mages, release a bunch of abominations and innocents will die. Help the templars, kill a bunch of innocents along with the guilty. It's tragic, either way.

The abominations here aren't exactly subtle. They're easy enough to spot and kill, and they try to kill Hawke no matter whom she sides with in any case.

If that were true, you'd be right - it wouldn't be a big deal. However, it isn't true. We've seen examples of possessed people who aren't immediately spotted. Wilmod didn't show any outward signs of possession until pushed. Connor didn't show any visible outward signs of possession. Keran was put under observation for years in order to verify that he wasn't possessed. Factually, it's entirely possible for possessed people not to show. If spotting abominations was so easy, why did they have to do these things?

[Xilizhra]

The mages are trapped in the Gallows. The docks of the gallows aren't very large, the secret passage to darktown ends in a person-sized entryway and the templars know about it (considering Alrik was there himself). The way the Circles are set up one would think (particularly one growing up in a society where the established order of the Chantry and Circles has been a constant rule of the land) they would have a sufficient force of templars to enact the Right of Annulment effectively, and we're told the people of Kirkwall will be after the mages' blood as well. Much less if an Exalted March should be called.

The only people who says that the people would be after the mages' blood is Meredith, and she's cuckoo for cocoa puffs. And Meredith says that she has to go rally the rest of the Order, thus implying its disorganization. The Gallows are sort of tricky to hold, but it's far from impossible.

[Ryzaki]

Gespenst wrote...
Oh, it gets worse.

After my warrior and rogue playthrough I looked at what I had left.

Mass Exodus (Get to Kirkwall as all three classes)
Crowning Glory (Side With the Templars)
Mage Hunter - or as I will now call it:

Get an innocent man sent to jail for a crime he didn't commit and have his sister thrown onto the street to starve, turn a group of apostates over to an insane templar who'd kill the good templar that's trying to help them and flay them alive as soon as look at them, send a bright and good natured young mage to the circle and later destroy his mind while he sleeps and ... make a reasonably sound tactical decision when Kirkwall's keep is occupied by enemy forces ... achievement.

It's actually worse than I imagined. If I ever want to feel bad about myself again I'll play a real templar sympathiser.

Heh. I felt pretty bad myself when I played a mage sympathiser. Felt like everyone was playing me for a sucker. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 août 2011 - 12:21 .

[Mr.House]

jlb524 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
Not every mage in that circle is inocent, we know the circle is corrupted well before the battle thanks to Thrask and his little group of kidnapping morons.

Then the templars should have investigated this and done something about the bad mages.  I guess killing every single mage in the Circle works too.  

Mr.House wrote...
Let's say Templar Bob is guarding the Gallows, his mother was in the chantry when it exploded and he knew people where comnig to the Gallows to cause hell, what do you think he would do? Protect a group that the killer belonged to or get revange? Emotion will overcome proper logic and some Templars will help. The Knight-Commander has been wanting to do the RoA forawhile, however not every Templar who supports her is doing it because she said so, they are doing it for revange, and some like Cullen are doing it because they have no choice.

I doubt Templar Bob is the only one guarding the mages.

You don't know the motives of each Templar...perhaps some were doing it out of revenge.  You also seem to keep forgetting the possibility that Templar Joe could have a young daughter in the Circle.  Yes, some people lost loved ones in the Chantry, but other people have loved ones in the Circle.

That's if you beleive every Templar enjyoed doing it, shall I remind you that certain Templars have no choice but to stay in the Templars? Shall I remind you that rebelling against the Knight-Commander could lead you to your death andt he only reason why the rest of the order does go against her was because of Cullen, who had enough of it, her and doing something he did not agree with.

[Xilizhra]

Proof that they're just coming in through the veil? They could easily have been summoned by desperate mages or Resolutionists. If they were coming through the veil, I'd probably have expected them to comment about it at least. What they *did* show was desperate mages and demon summoning. I assumed that since they showed me *that*, there was more of that going on. I could be wrong, but I didn't see any evidence that it was demons crossing over directly from the Fade.

Because that is what they showed. I only saw one blood mage summoning demons in the mage side; the rest just appeared, many in places where there were never any traces of mage presence (like many of the Templar Hall corridors).

If that were true, you'd be right - it wouldn't be a big deal. However, it isn't true. We've seen examples of possessed people who aren't immediately spotted. Wilmod didn't show any outward signs of possession until pushed. Connor didn't show any visible outward signs of possession. Keran was put under observation for years in order to verify that he wasn't possessed. Factually, it's entirely possible for possessed people not to show. If spotting abominations was so easy, why did they have to do these things?

Wilmod and Keran were possessed via a ritual deliberately designed to make inconspicuous demon possessees, and Connor deliberately took the demon in. None of this happens in here; even one apparently willing mage turns into the mutant fleshsack variety of abomination, and I'm fairly sure avoiding it requires more deliberation than the vast majority of mages here will have time for. The risk here is too small compared to the alternative.

Hawke can say it too, when Merrill protests. It's not shown very well (they could have had rioting Kirkwallers attack you on your way to th gallows, if you side with the mages), but it's reasoning intended to be taken seriously.

And apparently then dismissed, as it never happens. I also really do need to point out that your rogue's assessment of the situation is incorrect; is it really metagaming to avoid this?

[Xilizhra]

Filament wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And apparently then dismissed, as it never happens. I also really do need to point out that your rogue's assessment of the situation is incorrect; is it really metagaming to avoid this?

It never happens that we see. Maybe the situation resolved itself before the 'angry mob' could take form. And Orsino also points out your grim odds, so along with those other points, yes I would say it's metagaming to think siding with the mages has much hope of success. The player knows s/he'll be given the opportunity to succeed either way, obviously, but Hawke shouldn't.

Orsino's been beaten down by the templars for years and never really fought them before. Hawke, however, has, and has gotten many things accomplished under long odds. Orsino's pessimism is understandable, but I also doubt it's that well-founded.

[miraclemight]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because that is what they showed. I only saw one blood mage summoning demons in the mage side; the rest just appeared, many in places where there were never any traces of mage presence (like many of the Templar Hall corridors).

It's because when Hawke is helping them against the Templars, they don't really need to show what they're hiding under their sleeves.

Try playing the Lowtown and Templar Hall section while siding with the Templars. Many of those mages transform into abominations asap you slay their 'mortal' form, suggesting that they've been possessed all along.

Even without siding with Templars, just lingering a bit and watching the way they cast spells is enough to say who is actually what. Some spells are impossible to be cast without blood magic.

Modifié par miraclemight, 13 août 2011 - 12:56 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Xilizhra wrote...

Proof that they're just coming in through the veil? They could easily have been summoned by desperate mages or Resolutionists. If they were coming through the veil, I'd probably have expected them to comment about it at least. What they *did* show was desperate mages and demon summoning. I assumed that since they showed me *that*, there was more of that going on. I could be wrong, but I didn't see any evidence that it was demons crossing over directly from the Fade.

Because that is what they showed. I only saw one blood mage summoning demons in the mage side; the rest just appeared, many in places where there were never any traces of mage presence (like many of the Templar Hall corridors).

I disagree, but whatever. I mean, if you accept that, then the demons had been crawling through... well, everything then, and there really isn't anything stopping them.

If that were true, you'd be right - it wouldn't be a big deal. However, it isn't true. We've seen examples of possessed people who aren't immediately spotted. Wilmod didn't show any outward signs of possession until pushed. Connor didn't show any visible outward signs of possession. Keran was put under observation for years in order to verify that he wasn't possessed. Factually, it's entirely possible for possessed people not to show. If spotting abominations was so easy, why did they have to do these things?

Wilmod and Keran were possessed via a ritual deliberately designed to make inconspicuous demon possessees, and Connor deliberately took the demon in. None of this happens in here; even one apparently willing mage turns into the mutant fleshsack variety of abomination, and I'm fairly sure avoiding it requires more deliberation than the vast majority of mages here will have time for. The risk here is too small compared to the alternative.

I disagree with that idea. Kitty possessed the girl at Honnleath too, and so was Marethari. Neither of them went fleshbag. You say it's because it was deliberate, but practically all possessions are deliberate, including the fleshbag ones. 

There are literally hundreds of mages at the circle, and it's on record that even weak mages (like Meredith's sister) can kill dozens on their own.

You might be ok with dismissing the lives of innocents like that, but I'm not. But whatevs. You've already written the fanfiction in your head, and you're welcome to it. Forgive me if I'm more reluctant to accept it.

[Xilizhra]

There are literally hundreds of mages at the circle, and it's on record that even weak mages (like Meredith's sister) can kill dozens on their own.

They can, but only in the sense that individual mages can. Most abominations, as seen in both games, can be cut down squad by squad, because few mages or demons are that powerful.

You might be ok with dismissing the lives of innocents like that, but I'm not. But whatevs. You've already written the fanfiction in your head, and you're welcome to it. Forgive me if I'm more reluctant to accept it.

It's the innocents who might die later in some vague scenario I have no way of ascertaining, or the innocents who are definitely dying right here and right now. What can I do?

[Ryzaki]

...Xilzhra...you do realize since it's a game abominations are gonna be significantly weaker than they are in lore right? I have a harder time fighting rage demons (who are supposedly weaker according to lore) than them.  

(Not to mention the protagonist is...well a damn sue. Of course he/she can take them out with ease.)

They should've made abominations like deathclaws. But alas.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 août 2011 - 01:01 .

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Xilzhra...you do realize since it's a game abominations are gonna be significantly weaker than they are in lore right? I have a harder time fighting rage demons (who are supposedly weaker according to lore) than them.  

(Not to mention the protagonist is...well a damn sue. Of course he/she can take them out with ease.)

They should've made abominations like deathclaws. But alas.

Abominations could be like revenants. Like arcane horrors. Not mooks summoned by hordes. The fact that they didn't do this strikes me as meaning something.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote..
Abominations could be like revenants. Like arcane horrors. Not mooks summoned by hordes. The fact that they didn't do this strikes me as meaning something.

Yeah. Gameplay. The same reason abominations pop out of the damn ground. 
Abominations supposedly use terrorfiying magic. I can't recall a single instance of being attacked with magic by an abomination. Instead the idiots charge at me and start hitting me with their fists. Morons. 

Arcane horrors are pretty damn easy to kill to. Revanants are kind of pathetic in DA2. Though in DAO...yeah they were something. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 août 2011 - 01:04 .

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote..
Abominations could be like revenants. Like arcane horrors. Not mooks summoned by hordes. The fact that they didn't do this strikes me as meaning something.

Yeah. Gameplay. The same reason abominations pop out of the damn ground. 
Abominations supposedly use terrorfiying magic. I can't recall a single instance of being attacked with magic by an abomination. Instead the idiots charge at me and start hitting me with their fists. 

Arcane horrors are pretty damn easy to kill to. Revanants are kind of pathetic in DA2. Though in DAO...yeah they were something. 

Arcane horrors are at least elite or bosses. There was no integral reason to make abominations demon mooks; shades do the job just fine, and as you said, rage demons would work too. Nothing about gameplay forces this.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...
Arcane horrors are at least elite or bosses. There was no integral reason to make abominations demon mooks; shades do the job just fine, and as you said, rage demons would work too. Nothing about gameplay forces this.

You mean other than them showing how easily mages can become abominations and trying not to have the player swarmed? There's a reason you don't fight more than 2 AHs/Revanants/Pride Demons at a time. (Not to mention they're supposed to be rare are they not?) 

Being swarmed by elites or bosses is not fun. It's annoying. And if they were spamming spells it'd be even more annoying. Abominations tend to come in packs. (at least in Kirkwall and in Broken Circle). One of their points is that they'll try to make more of them if they can. 

Unless you want to suggest that an average thief (or assassin...whatever they're called. The irritating buggers with that backstab) is stronger than Anders since they can take him out in one hit? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 août 2011 - 01:10 .

[Xilizhra]

You mean other than them showing how easily mages can become abominations and trying not to have the player swarmed? There's a reason you don't fight more than 2 AHs/Revanants/Pride Demons at a time. (Not to mention they're supposed to be rare are they not?)

They don't even do that, since even abominations emerge from the Fade. I think they're the accumulated population of all the abominations that have come into being in Kirkwall over the years. We only see three mages actually spontaneously become them.
And this isn't just gameplay either; abominations fly out of the ground like shades in Wilmod's cutscene.

Unless you want to suggest that an average theif is stronger than Anders since they can take him out in one hit?

Well, the average thief has no magic.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

They don't even do that, since even abominations emerge from the Fade. I think they're the accumulated population of all the abominations that have come into being in Kirkwall over the years. We only see three mages actually spontaneously become them. 

And this isn't just gameplay either; abominations fly out of the ground like shades in Wilmod's cutscene. 

Since when did abominations emerge from the Fade? The whole point is that an abomination is its a possessed mage. (or someone a mage FORCED a demon into and the demon turned into an abomination. Or some poor sod that a demon managed to possess without help).  

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Abomination

[Well, the average thief has no magic.

He can still take out Anders in one hit and doesn't die from any of Anders' single attacks. So he's obvioulsy the stronger.  That's totally not gameplay in affect. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 août 2011 - 01:14 .