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[john-in-france]

Ryzaki wrote...

I really don't know why Hawke's not allowed to report Anders to the templars other than the railroad plot. I mean...he can kill an innocent girl and Hawke can't report him? Huh...

And I'm not gonna start on the idiocy that is reporting him to Cullen after his Justice quest. Talk about holding the idiot ball. 

I have fired Anders from the party just after Dissent (last playthrough). I still get Merediths annoying 'He's one of your companions speech. Nothing I do effects the end. Which is sad because there should be a way for Hawke to influence the game.

Faith and Dissent both make me wary.

However what Anders says to Leliana, creeps me out.

[john-in-france]

Xilizhra wrote...

Quething wrote...

Tidra wrote...

Good. You should be scared.

It seems perfectly reasonable he said that to her when Leilana appears to blame everything going on in Kirkwall on Mages or "Magic". She seems to have no problem with the Divine considering an Exalted March except other than to get Elthina the great and holy out.

Leliana being OOCly crazy isn't exactly justification for Anders acting like doctors, children, and two out of three Hawkes are the enemy and therefore valid targets over an accident of birth.

And it's not like that's the only time he expresses that sentiment. By Act III Janders has kind of lost the plot, and is no longer about Freedom or Justice, just Mages.

Only enemies of mage freedom are valid deliberate targets. Others might wind up being collateral damage, but more of that seems to show up with templar action than with any mage one.

The only way that I have found to save any circle mages in the endgame is to play Templar ending.

Mage ending (played 5 times): you kill bloodmages and templar in the streets, when you get to the Gallows, kill more Templar, Orsino goes Dark Side (How could you...I loved your character...and you protected Quentin), then off we go and kill more Templar.

Templar ending (played 7 times): you kill bloodmages in the streets, when you get to the Gallows you do kill more bloodmages, then if you and Cullen work together, you get to save the lives of a group of circle mages, then it is more bloodmages and Orsino (I could never play Templar ending if Orsino remained the man we saw during the Qunari invasion and just threw fireballs), then Meredith who did need to be taken out.

So I guess, that makes my preferred Hawke who saves mages, a target of mages...I'll live with that, because those few mages that I save are worth it. Just fireball me after I save them ok?
Judy.

On Leliana: The present Divine Justinia V, is Revered Mother Dorothea who helped Leliana so many years ago.

[Melca36]

Xilizhra wrote...

Her skills in gathering information don't seem that hot.

Unless she didn't want to make the Chantry look weak in front of Hawke.

The Chantry is weak enough as it is.........

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Gervaise wrote...

Was just watching the exchange with Sister Nightingale with Anders' present and when she says "If Kirkwall falls to magic, none of us is safe," his comment: "None of you."   Was that just directed at members of the Chantry or did it have a deeper meaning - like none of you non-mages?  Either way I found it rather chilling, particularly when I recall his comment "Justice is hard, justice is cold."   He clearly has forgotten that Sister Nightingale also help stopped the Blight in Ferelden and was good friends with the two mages he keeps banging on about.   No wonder he didn't care about any of the lay brothers and sisters in the chantry who also died alongside the Grand Cleric and the Templars there, not to mention any ordinary citizens who happened to be there at the time. 

"Sister Nightingale" was not necessarily the Warden's friend, nor did she necessarily help stop the Blight, depending on the import, since no matter what happens to leliana in Origins, she still shows up about the same in DA2. So it's somewhat a moot point. Even if Leliana did help the Warden, I do not see how this effects anything. Besides, In most of my playthroughs, Leliana sits in camp, because I prefer using Zevran. So really, whether or not she helped stop the Blight is subjective.

In fact, Leliana, in my own playthrough, would probably be considered worse than Anders. My canon Warden was a mage, who see the institution that is the Chantry as the enemy. While my Warden was not a hot head or revolutionary, and really wasn't bothered by people simply believing in the Chant, working directly for the divine as her personal left hand is another matter. That is betrayal. My Warden tolerated Leliana's religous beliefs because she thought that's all they were: her own personal beliefs, which everyone is entitled to. Directly working for the Divine is a differnt matter, one that would be a betrayal, especially since Leliana appears now to have adopted a morre antagonistic view towards mages, despite the situation in Kirkwall being very much the fault of Meredith and her brutish incompetance.

And there's another example of why the Chantry epically fails: Leliana, a seeker, who is part od an organization whose job supposedly a Chantry internal affairs division, is in Kirkwall simply to tell Elthina it might be a good time to use her vacation time and go elsewhere. Instead of, you know, actually investigating what was going on? Investigating both the templars in Kirkwall, as well as the Circle, instead of automatically assuming the mages are running amok and terrorizing people for no reason?

Anyways, Anders comment to Leliana was pretty cool. I only wish there was an option to shank her myself.  As far as the people killed in the Chantry when Anders blew it up, since the majority were Chantry staff and Elthina, who was useless anyway, I didn't really care about them myself. For that matter, I'm yet to see anyone or anything in Kirkwall that I have't wanted to choke, strangle, decaptitate, disembowel, or nuke. Anders just beat me to the punchline first.

To be honest, of all the mages we encounter in DA2, I find him by far and away the most scary, because he seems so nice and normal (when Justice is quiet) but underlying I sense this hard, cold, callous, utterly ruthless being - which the writers only allow to surface occasionally.  In fact I definitely would say he gives Meredith a good run for her money.   Why oh why are we not allowed to act on our instincts where he is concerned?

Justice/vengance is cold and focused, single minded. Scary to some. I find it more sad than anything,

[Gervaise]

Wow, did this thread take off.  Most seem to be missing the point.  You can argue to the cows come home about which is the moral choice at the end - I've played both, justified both in my character's mind but I feel more comfortable with siding with the mages, particularly but not exclusively if up to then I have opposed Meredith.  In fact it gives more clout if up to then I have supported her and then turn round and say, this time you've gone too far.
I was specifically looking at Anders and what he claims to represent. 

So far as him doing good in his clinic -  well it may have started off as a totally selfless gesture - but it does provided him with a good cover.  Ironically some of the people he heals in his clinic one day, may well be victims of his bomb the next.  We never get to know how badly ordinary people were affected by his action.  Don't go by the number of people you can see in the Chantry - this wouldn't be the first time you have to assume certain things - like when Anders says have you seen the number of new tranquil in the Gallows Courtyard and you think, not really, is he hallucinating?
And it is convenient that he seems to have no desire to progress a relationship when you are stuck in a hovel in lowtown but moves it on when he starts feeling the heat in Darktown and when you are in the much more strategically useful and more secure location in Hightown.  Reckon that's why Justice ultimately agreed to it.

The biggest injustice in all of Thedas is to the elves - they have been slaves or downtrodden serfs for twice as long as the mages - some of which has been the responsibility of the Magisters, some the Chantry and some just the ruling class generally.  Why does Anders approve if you hand back Fenris to Danarius?  Because he doesn't like him personally and because Fenris doesn't embrace the idea of freedon for all mages. That is not Justice nor Vengence since what has Fenris done to him?   However, Fenris will admit that there are some good mages who resist temptation (specifically to do deals with demons/spirits), just they are few and far between in his experience, which is valid, that there are plenty of dangerous ones you ought to be scared of, which is true, and tends to direct these comments at Anders personally, again perfectly justified.  If anything, he wants to get rid of Fenris partly because it makes him feel a twinge of conscience about his relationship with Justice and partly because he is afraid that Fenris may influence Hawke in way that is detrimental to his cause. Is this Anders or that spirit within him?  If you go with the Anders romance he admits that Justice doesn't approve of anything which distracts him from his purpose, and I might add could make him have empathy with other people.

My whole point about the exchange with Lelianna is that the way Anders says it is so chilling. 
Mostly when he is sounding off, he is actually quite emotional, which is in character with the real Anders from Awakening.  By Act 3 something has definitely changed.  And the fact is that he can jerk you around, manipulate you, lie to you and deceive you, all in the name of Justice and then murder innocent people who've never done him any harm or anyone else for that matter.  Forget Elthinia, the entire building goes up and sets fire to many buildings surrounding it or deposits debris on them, hence why you have to go down through the city to the docks to get to the gallows rather than simply going through Hightown.
To do what the Templars do they have to stop seeing mages as individual people, just a dangerous group, they admit as much.  The individual no longer matters.
To do what Anders does, he likewise has to stop seeing people as individuals, just the enemy or collateral damage.  The individual no longer matters.
The reason why I defend the mages is because I am still seeing them as individual people - they matter - and I felt utterly betrayed by Orsino.
If I was in Tevinter and a rebel slave planted a bomb in the Magisters hall, I would defend the slaves from retribution.
If I was in Tevinter and a rogue Templar planted a bomb in the Magisters hall, I would defend the regular Templars from retribution.
The Chantry is responsible for injustice to mages.  The Magisters are responsible for injustice to slaves. 
Remember what Fenris says, there have been rebellions in the Imperium and they have ended badly - for the slaves.  Look at what happened to Andraste.   Is it not reasonable to assume that the current rebellion will end badly for the majority of mages, because the ruling classes have no vested interest in allowing them greater power as a group?
In the oncoming war, it is inevitable that both sides will commit attrocities - that is the nature of things - what is started in blood will end in blood.  Ultimately though, if one side is not to prosper at the expense of the other, compromise will have to take place.
I just wish, that even if only in Kirkwall, there had been a third way to finish the game, because that is what I had been working to the rest of the game and by Act 3 I was impotent.   The main character was no longer Hawke but Anders.  War may have been inevitable but his bomb speeded matters along.  All that I did was tie up a few lose ends.
And there was no Justice at the end because if you kill him, he becomes a martyr and that's what he wants.
If you spare him and let him stay with you, then he escapes punishment for his crime and you are now culpable.
If you spare him and tell him to get lost, you have set a dangerous psycopath free.
Letting Fenris squeeze his heart until he screams? - cruel and in any case not an option.
Cold, clinical, calculating, pitiless Justice triumphs over all.

[Xilizhra]

Remember that the mage rebellion has been going on for three years and they don't seem to be losing. In fact, they got the templars to break away from the Chantry, meaning that the Divine has lost her army and the templars have lost a lot of civil and logistical support, not to mention probably having political opinion turning against them. The fight is very far from lost.

Why does Anders approve if you hand back Fenris to Danarius? Because he doesn't like him personally and because Fenris doesn't embrace the idea of freedon for all mages. That is not Justice nor Vengence since what has Fenris done to him?

Actually, it's because he sees Fenris as a threat. Which... really, he kinda is. Anders' assessment may be off, as he's not privy to all of Fenris' conversations, but I believe that Anders is sincere.

The only way that I have found to save any circle mages in the endgame is to play Templar ending.

That's because you're saving them from your own side. In the mage ending, it states that "many survived to tell the tale," so you save far more in the mage ending. Not to mention that you directly save five or six from a templar attack right before the Docks.

[john-in-france]

I think Faith was meant to show a turning point, perhaps a shadow of what was to come.
We see hard lines being drawn by both sides, and neither wish to listen to reason.

Supposedly Hawke and Sebastian (locked character) are there to talk to Leliana about stopping an Exhalted March. Elthina had already asked the Divine not to send troops, and Leliana wanted to speak with us for our opinions. Then we had the joy of Bioware dialogue, that would not let your Hawke or Sebastian give a good reason against it, so we get the infuriating 'Tell Elthina to leave line'.

You are right, what Anders says there is chilling, and suggests that he no longer sees non-mages as people.

Elthina is still trying to sustain peace (not working), Meredith has already sent to Orlais for the RoA, Anders seems to become totally magecentric, and Orsino lost control of the circle. Pretty much a set up for a bad fall.

The Justice quest was easy to see through the lies on, sela petrae, please Bioware, latin for Salt Petre one of the main ingredients of gunpowder. He does however lie to Hawke, and worse...with the truth. 'Well you mix the two together...and boom.'

He never survives my endgame, my Hawkes always feel too betrayed.
Also I myself, don't want anymore Anders/Justice moments occurring because of importing DA2 files to DA3.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I doubt the stories about the Circle Tower were anything more than rumors if the mages survived, but it's acknowledged there was a presence of abominations to deal with if the Circle was purged, so it clearly isn't impossible to deal with more than one abomination according to lore.

Lore never said it was impossible for the warden (or indeed anyone) and his crew to deal with more than one abomination. Gregoir said it was impossible for him and his current amount of templars to deal with the abominations that were in the circle without razing it to the ground (which he needed clearence for thus sending for the rite). Big difference. 

All the more amusing that it can take a mage to do a templar's job.

[john-in-france]

Xilizhra wrote...

The only way that I have found to save any circle mages in the endgame is to play Templar ending.

That's because you're saving them from your own side. In the mage ending, it states that "many survived to tell the tale," so you save far more in the mage ending. Not to mention that you directly save five or six from a templar attack right before the Docks.

The templar ending also says that circle mages escaped.

However, I've never played Mage ending with Sebastian as LI before, so I shall have another go and see how it plays out. I don't remember mages at the docks, but my  Hawke is always willing to save more mages. It is just that so many of them come back to bite you...

I think it would have been more poignant if Orsino had not become an abomination, having to fight a First Enchanter who never gave in to temptation...would have been difficult. Mage ending even better with real Orsino...it is just horrid.

Judy

[Gervaise]

If you support Templars you get to save 3 mages running from Orsino and Bethany if she is alive.
If you support the Mages, you get the opportunity to save a group of Circle Mages when Meredith first leaves you, 4 or 5 further on down in Lowtown just before you leave for the docks(presumably not blood because they don't resort to dirty tricks when attacked), and around a dozen in the hall before Orsino does his flip.   These include Emile and Alain if you previously spared them and sent them back to the Circle.  If you succeed, and ignore Orsino but focus on what they are doing beyond the force field, you see them running away.  Plus again Bethany if alive.
So on balance, you definitely get to save to save more mages if you support them if you do not.  It is just a bit harder work than the Templar ending, since you have to fight blood mage abominations and Templars simultaneously.

[Ryzaki]

Yes mage ending saves much more mages than templar ending does.


Mage ending however doesn't get to call Orsino out.

[LobselVith8]

Are people actually arguing that saving three mages makes up for murdering hundreds of men, women, and children in cold blood? Varric clearly states that there are "many survivors" if Hawke protects the mages instead of choosing to participate in an act of genocide, while the three mages who are spared may be made tranquil.

[SurelyForth]

Gervaise wrote...


So far as him doing good in his clinic -  well it may have started off as a totally selfless gesture - but it does provided him with a good cover.  Ironically some of the people he heals in his clinic one day, may well be victims of his bomb the next.  We never get to know how badly ordinary people were affected by his action.  Don't go by the number of people you can see in the Chantry - this wouldn't be the first time you have to assume certain things - like when Anders says have you seen the number of new tranquil in the Gallows Courtyard and you think, not really, is he hallucinating?
And it is convenient that he seems to have no desire to progress a relationship when you are stuck in a hovel in lowtown but moves it on when he starts feeling the heat in Darktown and when you are in the much more strategically useful and more secure location in Hightown.  Reckon that's why Justice ultimately agreed to it.

Seeing how most of the underclass are in Lowtown/Darktown...probably none were harmed by the actual bomb. Looters are another story, but they survived the Qunari attack and can probably deal with some **** raiders for a night.

I don't doubt Anders' claim about the tranquil because it is verifiable. All Hawke has to do is go to the Gallows and check things out. The fact that Alrik is threatening Ella with tranquility for escaping confirms the most important point Anders is making anyway: That Tranquility is being used to punished Hawrrowed mages. And that Alrik is a slimy bastard who rapes mages and gets away with it.

Merrill also has no desire to pursue a relationship until Hawke is in Hightown. Nor do Isabela (who hits on you within a day of meeting you) or Fenris. I'd say the fact that Anders hits on Hawke first and gets upset at being turned down in Act 1 indicates his interest in Hawke is genuine, and frustrating since he doesn't feel he's in a place to be in a relationship.

If anything, the fact that he doesn't really pursue Hawke sooner says more about his unwillingness to drag Hawke onto the wreck that is his life. He waits until Hawke has seen him at his worst, after killing/almost killing Ella, and asks over and over and over again if Hawke is sure s/he wants to be with him. Seriously, if he was just in it for the fortress or whatever, it would be in his best interest to not push the whole disaster/we'll be hunted, hated/did I mention the spirit in my head disapproves of this? You're acting like Anders is this nefarious mastermind and he does pretty much everything wrong by laying himself so completely bare for Hawke to reject.

And I won't even get into Justice and how, the one time we know he's misleading Hawke it's so blatantly obvious it's almost not funny. Shifty eyes? Suspicious fidgetyness? Overly cheerful? Yeah. All the signs of a real stealth baddie.

[Ryzaki]

@Lob: Hawke's killed hundreds of men and women on a yearly basis. That's nothing new. 

As for children. Hawke doesn't actually kill any kids. Sure you can RP it that way but trying to insist that Hawke killed children by siding with the templars...just no. The templars do that regardless whether Hawke sides with the mages or not. If he sides with the mages he just happens to save more instead of just letting it happen. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 août 2011 - 02:46 .

[john-in-france]

Ok, so why does Orsino turn on us if we are playing a mage in the mage ending? I can understand him deciding to use blood magic in the Templar ending. He sees it as an act of last resort.

In mage ending, why doesn't he remain the old Orsino from the Qunari invasion? There is no way that the Templar were going to win against mage Hawke and Orsino (+ Anders if you play it that way). I just can't see it.

Bioware want us to see the mages as being in the wrong. The outlook for DA3 therefore looks a little grim.

My personal take on the Templar that use lyrium is...latent mages.

[LobselVith8]

john-in-france wrote...

The templar ending also says that circle mages escaped.

No, the templar ending doesn't have Varric saying that. There's only a reference to survivors in the mage ending.

[esper]

john-in-france wrote...

Ok, so why does Orsino turn on us if we are playing a mage in the mage ending? I can understand him deciding to use blood magic in the Templar ending. He sees it as an act of last resort.

In mage ending, why doesn't he remain the old Orsino from the Qunari invasion? There is no way that the Templar were going to win against mage Hawke and Orsino (+ Anders if you play it that way). I just can't see it.

Bioware want us to see the mages as being in the wrong. The outlook for DA3 therefore looks a little grim.

My personal take on the Templar that use lyrium is...latent mages.

Because the writers thought both Meridith and Orsino had to die no matter what

Orsino thinks you are being overrun by the templars, sadly gameplaywise you are powerfull enough to kill templars like flies in last straw and thus it isn't very convincing.
I must say after the last patch it made a little (emphasis on little) more sense last time I played. All the surviving mage NPC's ran through the fire and esacped and the templars ran through the fire and attacked Orsino first, so it was only my Hawke who wasn't fire proof and decided she had to stay and kill the monster.

[berelinde]

john-in-france wrote...

Ok, so why does Orsino turn on us if we are playing a mage in the mage ending? I can understand him deciding to use blood magic in the Templar ending. He sees it as an act of last resort.

In mage ending, why doesn't he remain the old Orsino from the Qunari invasion? There is no way that the Templar were going to win against mage Hawke and Orsino (+ Anders if you play it that way). I just can't see it.

Bioware want us to see the mages as being in the wrong. The outlook for DA3 therefore looks a little grim.

My personal take on the Templar that use lyrium is...latent mages.

Nothing that dramatic, or even that logical. According to this, mage-supporters were originally not required to fight Orsino at all. It was a last-minute addition because they wanted one more boss battle before the end. So, no, BioWare did not want to show just how evil all mages were. They just ran out of monsters to throw at Hawke toward the end.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Lob: Hawke's killed hundreds of men and women on a yearly basis. That's nothing new. 

As for children. Hawke doesn't actually kill any kids. Sure you can RP it that way but trying to insist that Hawke killed children by siding with the templars...just no. The templars do that regardless whether Hawke sides with the mages or not. If he sides with the mages he just happens to save more instead of just letting it happen. 

Hawke is helping Meredith and the templars, which makes him responsible for the execution of the hundreds of men, women, and children because he's aiding her in an act of mass murder against hundreds who are innocent of the act that Anders alone committed.

john-in-france wrote...

Ok, so why does Orsino turn on us if we are playing a mage in the mage ending? I can understand him deciding to use blood magic in the Templar ending. He sees it as an act of last resort.

In mage ending, why doesn't he remain the old Orsino from the Qunari invasion? There is no way that the Templar were going to win against mage Hawke and Orsino (+ Anders if you play it that way). I just can't see it.

Bioware want us to see the mages as being in the wrong. The outlook for DA3 therefore looks a little grim.

My personal take on the Templar that use lyrium is...latent mages.

If murdering hundreds of innocent people makes the templars right, I'd prefer to be wrong every time.

[john-in-france]

esper wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

Ok, so why does Orsino turn on us if we are playing a mage in the mage ending? I can understand him deciding to use blood magic in the Templar ending. He sees it as an act of last resort.

In mage ending, why doesn't he remain the old Orsino from the Qunari invasion? There is no way that the Templar were going to win against mage Hawke and Orsino (+ Anders if you play it that way). I just can't see it.

Bioware want us to see the mages as being in the wrong. The outlook for DA3 therefore looks a little grim.

My personal take on the Templar that use lyrium is...latent mages.

Because the writers thought both Meridith and Orsino had to die no matter what

Orsino thinks you are being overrun by the templars, sadly gameplaywise you are powerfull enough to kill templars like flies in last straw and thus it isn't very convincing.
I must say after the last patch it made a little (emphasis on little) more sense last time I played. All the surviving mage NPC's ran through the fire and esacped and the templars ran through the fire and attacked Orsino first, so it was only my Hawke who wasn't fire proof and decided she had to stay and kill the monster.

Meredith had to die...Big yes to that! My most hated characters Meridith and Petrice...at least I got to kill one of them. 

[ipgd]

john-in-france wrote...

Ok, so why does Orsino turn on us if we are playing a mage in the mage ending? I can understand him deciding to use blood magic in the Templar ending. He sees it as an act of last resort.

In mage ending, why doesn't he remain the old Orsino from the Qunari invasion? There is no way that the Templar were going to win against mage Hawke and Orsino (+ Anders if you play it that way). I just can't see it.

Bioware want us to see the mages as being in the wrong. The outlook for DA3 therefore looks a little grim.

Orsino goes nuts on the mage ending because Bioware wanted another boss fight. It could have been handled better (they could have just as easily made it so the mages were actually being overwhelmed with templars and the preceding battle were extremely difficult or legitimately impossible before his cutscene cuts in, like they did with Flemeth's entrance in the prologue), but it was not done because Bioware has some sort of anti-mage conspiracy. They have an investment in the issue being difficult and non-absolute, because specific work went into doing the worldbuilding that way. The writers do not want you to think mages are all evil; they were a little heavy handed in an effort to balance things out in response to how strongly opinions trended towards mages in reaction to DAO, but that is an issue of execution, not philosophy.

[SurelyForth]

john-in-france wrote...

Ok, so why does Orsino turn on us if we are playing a mage in the mage ending? I can understand him deciding to use blood magic in the Templar ending. He sees it as an act of last resort.

In mage ending, why doesn't he remain the old Orsino from the Qunari invasion? There is no way that the Templar were going to win against mage Hawke and Orsino (+ Anders if you play it that way). I just can't see it.

Bioware want us to see the mages as being in the wrong. The outlook for DA3 therefore looks a little grim.

My personal take on the Templar that use lyrium is...latent mages.

Word of God: Orsino turns on Hawke because the programmers wanted two boss battles for everyone, no matter what. 

How to make that work: He snaps. He's been fighting with Meredith for years, trying to protect his mages, who he cares about (see how upset he is during the Qunari attack when he realizes none of them survived) and now they're being annulled for something completely beyond their control or doing. Even with Hawke, the one person he feels can help him, the templars manage kill the entire front line and he just...snaps. He can't take it anymore.

I mean...it's disgusting, but it's also proof of how ****ed up things are and how bad things have gotten. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 13 août 2011 - 03:00 .

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke is helping Meredith and the templars, which makes him responsible for the execution of the hundreds of men, women, and children because he's aiding her in an act of mass murder against hundreds who are innocent of the act that Anders alone committed.

Uh no. It's Meredith's responsibility hell one could even say Hawke's under duress in certain circumstances. So trying to blame Hawke for the mages' deaths (that he doesn't personally kill) is ridculous. The templars kill them. It's no different than trying to blame Hawke for everyone the Qunari killed because he didn't go after Isabela so he could return the tome. Hawke didn't make the templars kill those mages, he didn't order them to envoke the RoA. 

It sure in hell isn't Hawke's responsibility to save their lives. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 août 2011 - 03:25 .

[esper]

john-in-france wrote...

esper wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

Ok, so why does Orsino turn on us if we are playing a mage in the mage ending? I can understand him deciding to use blood magic in the Templar ending. He sees it as an act of last resort.

In mage ending, why doesn't he remain the old Orsino from the Qunari invasion? There is no way that the Templar were going to win against mage Hawke and Orsino (+ Anders if you play it that way). I just can't see it.

Bioware want us to see the mages as being in the wrong. The outlook for DA3 therefore looks a little grim.

My personal take on the Templar that use lyrium is...latent mages.

Because the writers thought both Meridith and Orsino had to die no matter what

Orsino thinks you are being overrun by the templars, sadly gameplaywise you are powerfull enough to kill templars like flies in last straw and thus it isn't very convincing.
I must say after the last patch it made a little (emphasis on little) more sense last time I played. All the surviving mage NPC's ran through the fire and esacped and the templars ran through the fire and attacked Orsino first, so it was only my Hawke who wasn't fire proof and decided she had to stay and kill the monster.

Meredith had to die...Big yes to that! My most hated characters Meridith and Petrice...at least I got to kill one of them. 

I agree with Meridith, but she is evil no matter what - and have the crazy by lyrium as an excuse for pro-templar. Plus it is stated many times that she is overly paranoid so it is in character for her to turn on Hawke.
Orsino on the other hand. It is just not convincing that you are being overrun by templars.

[john-in-france]

berelinde wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

Ok, so why does Orsino turn on us if we are playing a mage in the mage ending? I can understand him deciding to use blood magic in the Templar ending. He sees it as an act of last resort.

In mage ending, why doesn't he remain the old Orsino from the Qunari invasion? There is no way that the Templar were going to win against mage Hawke and Orsino (+ Anders if you play it that way). I just can't see it.

Bioware want us to see the mages as being in the wrong. The outlook for DA3 therefore looks a little grim.

My personal take on the Templar that use lyrium is...latent mages.

Nothing that dramatic, or even that logical. According to this, mage-supporters were originally not required to fight Orsino at all. It was a last-minute addition because they wanted one more boss battle before the end. So, no, BioWare did not want to show just how evil all mages were. They just ran out of monsters to throw at Hawke toward the end.

I don't think the words that just came to mind will actually print on the form, too many *********** for you to make it out.

As you may have guessed, and been rather shocked to hear I expect, I liked Orsino. Being forced to make him go down that path is utter s**t.

Blasted Bioware...