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[Gervaise]

The Anders Justice quest and the Orsino transformation are the two plot developments that had me tearing my hair out.
With the former it is patently obvious he is up to something and to actually say, you mix the two together and boom. It also annoyed me that it is flagged up as magic. Even if Meredith assumes everything is magic, could he not have said, actually it isn't? That bit about the Tevinters was a total smoke screen, since if they had a recipe that could do that, they wouldn't have a problem with the Qunari. Clearly he got his knowledge from Dworkin when they were at Vigil's Keep.
As for Orsino, I had really respected him, particularly when he showed concern for people who might get hurt being held by the Qunari if we went for an all out assault and proposed the distraction, then volunteered to provide it. To face down the Qunari alone and encourage them to come after him, showed real courage. I opted to help the mages to save innocents but to some extent also because of the fact that the First Enchanter seemed like a good guy. And first run through I hadn't picked up the message in Quentin's lair, so the revelation about his involvement would have been shocking enough, but then for him to do that transformation. It really had me feeling that if we got out alive, that was the last I was having to do with any mage rebellion - so Hawke disappearing without trace was totally believeable. I doubt that mages will really listen to me because they won't like what I have to say.

[john-in-france]

esper wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

esper wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

Ok, so why does Orsino turn on us if we are playing a mage in the mage ending? I can understand him deciding to use blood magic in the Templar ending. He sees it as an act of last resort.

In mage ending, why doesn't he remain the old Orsino from the Qunari invasion? There is no way that the Templar were going to win against mage Hawke and Orsino (+ Anders if you play it that way). I just can't see it.

Bioware want us to see the mages as being in the wrong. The outlook for DA3 therefore looks a little grim.

My personal take on the Templar that use lyrium is...latent mages.

Because the writers thought both Meridith and Orsino had to die no matter what

Orsino thinks you are being overrun by the templars, sadly gameplaywise you are powerfull enough to kill templars like flies in last straw and thus it isn't very convincing.
I must say after the last patch it made a little (emphasis on little) more sense last time I played. All the surviving mage NPC's ran through the fire and esacped and the templars ran through the fire and attacked Orsino first, so it was only my Hawke who wasn't fire proof and decided she had to stay and kill the monster.

Meredith had to die...Big yes to that! My most hated characters Meridith and Petrice...at least I got to kill one of them. 

I agree with Meridith, but she is evil no matter what - and have the crazy by lyrium as an excuse for pro-templar. Plus it is stated many times that she is overly paranoid so it is in character for her to turn on Hawke.
Orsino on the other hand. It is just not convincing that you are being overrun by templars.

An open Chantry supporter is admitting that they like a mage...and I thought you'd be cheering

[john-in-france]

Gervaise wrote...

The Anders Justice quest and the Orsino transformation are the two plot developments that had me tearing my hair out.
As for Orsino, I had really respected him, particularly when he showed concern for people who might get hurt being held by the Qunari if we went for an all out assault and proposed the distraction, then volunteered to provide it. To face down the Qunari alone and encourage them to come after him, showed real courage. I opted to help the mages to save innocents but to some extent also because of the fact that the First Enchanter seemed like a good guy. And first run through I hadn't picked up the message in Quentin's lair, so the revelation about his involvement would have been shocking enough, but then for him to do that transformation. It really had me feeling that if we got out alive, that was the last I was having to do with any mage rebellion - so Hawke disappearing without trace was totally believeable. I doubt that mages will really listen to me because they won't like what I have to say.

What message in the lair? I've found several but none from Orsino? 12 playthroughs and I keep missing this...

Apart from that. My thoughts exactly.

[dangereusegirl]

john-in-france wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

The Anders Justice quest and the Orsino transformation are the two plot developments that had me tearing my hair out.
As for Orsino, I had really respected him, particularly when he showed concern for people who might get hurt being held by the Qunari if we went for an all out assault and proposed the distraction, then volunteered to provide it. To face down the Qunari alone and encourage them to come after him, showed real courage. I opted to help the mages to save innocents but to some extent also because of the fact that the First Enchanter seemed like a good guy. And first run through I hadn't picked up the message in Quentin's lair, so the revelation about his involvement would have been shocking enough, but then for him to do that transformation. It really had me feeling that if we got out alive, that was the last I was having to do with any mage rebellion - so Hawke disappearing without trace was totally believeable. I doubt that mages will really listen to me because they won't like what I have to say.

What message in the lair? I've found several but none from Orsino? 12 playthroughs and I keep missing this...

Apart from that. My thoughts exactly.

I believe there is a note to the mage that is responsible for what happens to Leandra (Quentin?), that is signed simply 'O.' You don't get a confirmation on the identity of O until the very end, when Orsino admits he knew what was going on.


And I love the fact that this thread has been up for less than 24 hours and already has seven or eight pages to it. Yay discussions! 

[john-in-france]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If murdering hundreds of innocent people makes the templars right, I'd prefer to be wrong every time.

What has that to do with my question on Orsino?

[esper]

john-in-france wrote...

esper wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

esper wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

Ok, so why does Orsino turn on us if we are playing a mage in the mage ending? I can understand him deciding to use blood magic in the Templar ending. He sees it as an act of last resort.

In mage ending, why doesn't he remain the old Orsino from the Qunari invasion? There is no way that the Templar were going to win against mage Hawke and Orsino (+ Anders if you play it that way). I just can't see it.

Bioware want us to see the mages as being in the wrong. The outlook for DA3 therefore looks a little grim.

My personal take on the Templar that use lyrium is...latent mages.

Because the writers thought both Meridith and Orsino had to die no matter what

Orsino thinks you are being overrun by the templars, sadly gameplaywise you are powerfull enough to kill templars like flies in last straw and thus it isn't very convincing.
I must say after the last patch it made a little (emphasis on little) more sense last time I played. All the surviving mage NPC's ran through the fire and esacped and the templars ran through the fire and attacked Orsino first, so it was only my Hawke who wasn't fire proof and decided she had to stay and kill the monster.

Meredith had to die...Big yes to that! My most hated characters Meridith and Petrice...at least I got to kill one of them. 

I agree with Meridith, but she is evil no matter what - and have the crazy by lyrium as an excuse for pro-templar. Plus it is stated many times that she is overly paranoid so it is in character for her to turn on Hawke.
Orsino on the other hand. It is just not convincing that you are being overrun by templars.

An open Chantry supporter is admitting that they like a mage...and I thought you'd be cheering

Cheers.
But Orisino turning on Hawke could still have been done a lot better - which was kind of the main point.

[john-in-france]

dangereusegirl wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

The Anders Justice quest and the Orsino transformation are the two plot developments that had me tearing my hair out.
As for Orsino, I had really respected him, particularly when he showed concern for people who might get hurt being held by the Qunari if we went for an all out assault and proposed the distraction, then volunteered to provide it. To face down the Qunari alone and encourage them to come after him, showed real courage. I opted to help the mages to save innocents but to some extent also because of the fact that the First Enchanter seemed like a good guy. And first run through I hadn't picked up the message in Quentin's lair, so the revelation about his involvement would have been shocking enough, but then for him to do that transformation. It really had me feeling that if we got out alive, that was the last I was having to do with any mage rebellion - so Hawke disappearing without trace was totally believeable. I doubt that mages will really listen to me because they won't like what I have to say.

What message in the lair? I've found several but none from Orsino? 12 playthroughs and I keep missing this...

Apart from that. My thoughts exactly.

I believe there is a note to the mage that is responsible for what happens to Leandra (Quentin?), that is signed simply 'O.' You don't get a confirmation on the identity of O until the very end, when Orsino admits he knew what was going on.


And I love the fact that this thread has been up for less than 24 hours and already has seven or eight pages to it. Yay discussions! 

Sheesh. It would have been nice to have had a little discussion with Orsino about it before the endgame. I did catch the end discussion all 12 times, and was not amused. I felt a bit betrayed as mage Hawke. Not so much as warrior Hawke as Orsinos first loyalties were obviously to the mages.

I did have a good laugh in his office at the 'slit your wrists and dance in the moonlight' semi flirt with mage Hawke.

Poor Orsino, would have liked to see him in DA3.

[john-in-france]

esper wrote...

Cheers.
But Orisino turning on Hawke could still have been done a lot better - which was kind of the main point.

Very true, they could have done it with dialogue about Quentin.

[esper]

john-in-france wrote...

esper wrote...

Cheers.
But Orisino turning on Hawke could still have been done a lot better - which was kind of the main point.

Very true, they could have done it with dialogue about Quentin.

Or the could just have made the templar fight harder or impossible to win. So we could feel the desperation. I am not oppossed to the Quentin idea, though. Almost everything is better than: Oh no, we are winning, I better turn to blood magic - that is sort of how Orisino comes off as it is now.

[Xilizhra]

Orsino's fall wasn't unbelievable if you just fantasize the actual fight away, but having it be mandatory was extremely unfortunate... though, considering how weak their actual reason for doing so is, and having it not be an actual storytelling decision, I feel quite safe in just dismissing it in my own mental canon.

[esper]

In my head canon there is a lot more templars and they are almost winning so Orsino's act truely seems like desperation.

[Quething]

john-in-france wrote...

esper wrote...

Cheers.
But Orisino turning on Hawke could still have been done a lot better - which was kind of the main point.

Very true, they could have done it with dialogue about Quentin.

I don't know. Even that I felt was a little... "lol THERE'S NO RIGHT ANSWER MAGES SUCK TOO." I mean, the stated justification for Orsino letting Quentin be was that he didn't want to give Meredith an excuse to crack down harder by showing her proof that there were evil bloodmages out there.

Which...

What?

If Orsino didn't actually know what Quentin was doing, if he just knew that Quentin was dabbling in necromancy and didn't realize he was actively killing women for parts, that sort of makes sense. But that's not really the story the game presents us with. The game gives us "Orsino knew Quentin killed Maren and Leandra and Alessa and thought it was awesome because it was For Science, and also kept it on the downlow so Meredith wouldn't get her panties in a twist."

This is not particularly compatible with the rational, compassionate, and courageous (if increasingly frazzled and pessmistic) man we meet through late Act II and most of III. If they really wanted a plausibly "morally grey" Orsino, they needed to write him differently from the start, not tack on an arbitrary, unjustified and ill-fitting crime at the last minute.

[Xilizhra]

Remember Orsino's line about how Quentin's research was too evil and too dangerous to use. The For Science stuff seemed to happen earlier in Quentin's career, before his wife died. Orsino seemed to hate the thought of the current Quentin, but did avoid going after him so as not to give Meredith an excuse to crack down harder on the Circle.

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

Remember Orsino's line about how Quentin's research was too evil and too dangerous to use. The For Science stuff seemed to happen earlier in Quentin's career, before his wife died. Orsino seemed to hate the thought of the current Quentin, but did avoid going after him so as not to give Meredith an excuse to crack down harder on the Circle.

That would sort of make sense, if we didn't know Orsino to be the kind of man who would want murder stopped, and we didn't also know Orsino to be the kind of man who would willingly contract outside help in order to stop blood mages without alerting Meredith.

And considering you don't have to side with him publically in the Act III opener for him to be your questgiver for Best Served Cold, it's pretty obvious he does have ways of learning about the pro-mage things Hawke can do in Acts I and II and just generally identify sympathetic elements withink Kirkwall.

[Xilizhra]

Remember that this was after Hawke had proven herself by beating the qunari, and that Orsino is an inveterate pessimist. Hawke would need to do something amazing to make him think that she could deal with Quentin without alerting the templars, or that he could alert her to it (she had to have access to Templar Hall for her to even reach Orsino in Act 3, and that only came from becoming Champion as well).

[john-in-france]

Quething wrote...

If Orsino didn't actually know what Quentin was doing, if he just knew that Quentin was dabbling in necromancy and didn't realize he was actively killing women for parts, that sort of makes sense. But that's not really the story the game presents us with. The game gives us "Orsino knew Quentin killed Maren and Leandra and Alessa and thought it was awesome because it was For Science, and also kept it on the downlow so Meredith wouldn't get her panties in a twist."

This is not particularly compatible with the rational, compassionate, and courageous (if increasingly frazzled and pessmistic) man we meet through late Act II and most of III. If they really wanted a plausibly "morally grey" Orsino, they needed to write him differently from the start, not tack on an arbitrary, unjustified and ill-fitting crime at the last minute.

What got me most was with other characters we saw, or heard about the transition into grey (then black). Nothing really gave away Orsino until the end and I still think it was almost OOC, like they wanted a quick boss fight fix and couldn't be bothered to code a new one.

Brings me back to sarcastic Hawke: I'd like to go one week, just one, without meeting an insane mage!
That Bloodmage sigil under Kirkwall seems to be working on overtime...

I have to admit that I wanted Orsino to be that mage.  

[Xilizhra]

I don't think Orsino was insane regardless, or that what he did was particularly evil. Quentin was a nasty piece of work, but the templars could kill far more.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I don't think Orsino was being an idiot lunatic for science. Question is, what was he being an idiot lunatic for exactly? What was his idea? What was he planning to do with a harvester in the first place?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 août 2011 - 04:42 .

[esper]

I don't hate Orsino for the Quetin. I understand that he feared Meridith enough too not turn him, and I am not convinced that he knew about the Frankenstein project - just that Quetin was researching necromancy and he would risk the whole Kirkwall circle by admitting that Quetin existed.

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

Remember that this was after Hawke had proven herself by beating the qunari, and that Orsino is an inveterate pessimist. Hawke would need to do something amazing to make him think that she could deal with Quentin without alerting the templars, or that he could alert her to it (she had to have access to Templar Hall for her to even reach Orsino in Act 3, and that only came from becoming Champion as well).

Just send her a letter saying "I've heard of your exploits, and you may find something of interest to you at X location," and give her the address of the warehouse or his drop point or wherever it was he was smuggling books to for Quentin. Remember that there's always the possibility that the templars find Quentin on their own, just as there was the possibility that Thrask and Grace would be found, hence Orsino hiring Hawke in the first place. As long as that risk exists, Orsino has motivation to answer it; that plus the fact that, unlike Thrask and Grace, he knows Quentin is doing Bad Things, thus intensifying both the need to take him down and the risk if he's discovered by Meredith first, gives him a tremendous imperative to make at least some effort.

Besides, I wouldn't call "deals personally with the Arishok, is a trusted personal agent of the Viscount, and survived the Deep Roads, including darkspawn and dragon attacks" (that much at least must be common knowledge, whether most people seriously believe the more implausible tales about Profanes and rock wraiths or not) is all that less of an endorsement of skill than "killed some kossith." Which, really, Hawke was doing in Act I and II as well.

Modifié par Quething, 13 août 2011 - 04:44 .

[john-in-france]

Xilizhra wrote...

Remember that this was after Hawke had proven herself by beating the qunari, and that Orsino is an inveterate pessimist. Hawke would need to do something amazing to make him think that she could deal with Quentin without alerting the templars, or that he could alert her to it (she had to have access to Templar Hall for her to even reach Orsino in Act 3, and that only came from becoming Champion as well).

True.

I think my mage Hawke might have understood the Quentin thing if there had been dialogue and an apology, during one of the visits to Orsino in Act 3.

My warrior Hawke most likely wouldn't. No, being honest...totally wouldn't forgive or forget. Most likely why she always takes the Templar side.

Judy

[Quething]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think Orsino was being an idiot lunatic for science. Question is, what was he being an idiot lunatic for exactly? What was his idea? What was he planning to do with a harvester in the first place?

His letter to Quentin seems to suggest it was For Science. He's very enthusiastic about the idea that Quentin's done the impossible and achieved things that no one previously has. He offers the books because he's excited to see what more Quentin can learn and achieve. It seems very much like pure joy in academia, learning about magic for its own sake.

[miraclemight]

john-in-france wrote...

 Nothing really gave away Orsino until the end 

Do we have another character whose name starts with O? They could have at least tried to throw some here and there to avert our attention. Instead, Meredith comes and says "First Enchanter Orsino... You live." And all I can think about it "Wait a minute... You were with the Lily Killer?"

Same reason why a player who sides with Templars can quickly guess the "A" writing notes to apostates is Anders and "MS" is Mistress Selby...

[john-in-france]

Hmmm context issues with my post:

I wanted Orsino to be that mage...the sane one!

[Xilizhra]

Just send her a letter saying "I've heard of your exploits, and you may find something of interest to you at X location," and give her the address of the warehouse or his drop point or wherever it was he was smuggling books to for Quentin. Remember that there's always the possibility that the templars find Quentin on their own, just as there was the possibility that Thrask and Grace would be found, hence Orsino hiring Hawke in the first place. As long as that risk exists, Orsino has motivation to answer it; that plus the fact that, unlike Thrask and Grace, he knows Quentin is doing Bad Things, thus intensifying both the need to take him down and the risk if he's discovered by Meredith first, gives him a tremendous imperative to make at least some effort.

It's possible that that was his original plan, but that Hawke killed Quentin sooner than expected because of All that Remains. We know that he didn't do it, but we don't know that he wasn't planning on it.