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Anders shows his true colours?


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#201
john-in-france

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miraclemight wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

 Nothing really gave away Orsino until the end 


Do we have another character whose name starts with O? They could have at least tried to throw some here and there to avert our attention. Instead, Meredith comes and says "First Enchanter Orsino... You live." And all I can think about it "Wait a minute... You were with the Lily Killer?"

Same reason why a player who sides with Templars can quickly guess the "A" writing notes to apostates is Anders and "MS" is Mistress Selby... Image IPB


Only from the second playthrough. Until then there could have been another 'O'.
Normally I do try to playthrough as though I don't know the end.

I often fail. Thus 7 Templar playthroughs...because I just get too lost in Orsino/bloodmages in the circle issues.

#202
Gervaise

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Orsino supplies informationon Necromancy that he knows to be evil to a mage outside the circle system.   What does he imagine he is going to use it for?  That runs counter to the elf we meet at the end of Act 2, beginning of Act 3, who seems to be doing his best to operate within the law, protect his charges and has concern for ordinary citizens as well.  He seemed to be one of the few powerful totally sane and sensible mages we encountered.  In my head I could see my Hawke saying to his friend Fenris, see they're not all like in Tevinter and then after Orsino transforms, Fenris actually says effectively "told you so", to Bethany if not to myself. 

When we finally made it back out to Meredith having encountered possessed templars, blood mages, demons, skeletal undead, shades, arcane horrors and Orsino/Havester, I almost felt embarressed.  Yes, I'd saved around a dozen normal mages, which was about the only thing a had to feel proud about but offset by a greater number of Templars who were probably pretty far down the pecking order and only doing their job.   To be honest, it was a bit of relief she turned on me and I could get down to getting the memory of Orsino off my chest by undertaking a fight  where didn't feel horribly let down, because she had always made it clear she would come after me for the choice I made.  Whether I opted for Templars or Mages,  I always guessed I'd have to take her on eventually. 

The Orsino I thought I knew would have waited for Meredith and then let her have it in a full throttle magical assault.  But he transforms when she is nowhere in sight, into a monstrosity that can't even do proper magic, and when the only people likely to suffer are his own allies, because we're going to die anyway?   Thank you but I'd prefer to fall to my actual enemies - not the person I put my own neck on the line for.   I tell you, my mage Hawke, had never felt more ashamed of being a mage and my other Hawkes want as little as possible to do with them in the future.  So all in all, between them, Anders and Orsino have alienated a powerful potential ally for the cause - Score!

#203
john-in-france

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Thank you to everyone who has discussed Orsino with me. I think I have a better understanding of his character now.

I also read the codex, which also suggests that he was a decent man trying hard to keep his people safe, and just gets pushed over the edge at the end.

One of the memorable characters of DA2.

#204
Xilizhra

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Orsino supplies informationon Necromancy that he knows to be evil to a mage outside the circle system. What does he imagine he is going to use it for? That runs counter to the elf we meet at the end of Act 2, beginning of Act 3, who seems to be doing his best to operate within the law, protect his charges and has concern for ordinary citizens as well. He seemed to be one of the few powerful totally sane and sensible mages we encountered. In my head I could see my Hawke saying to his friend Fenris, see they're not all like in Tevinter and then after Orsino transforms, Fenris actually says effectively "told you so", to Bethany if not to myself.

The Orsino who sent the note was likely a much younger one, and possibly far more impulsive. He seems to have found a measure of restraint since then.

When we finally made it back out to Meredith having encountered possessed templars, blood mages, demons, skeletal undead, shades, arcane horrors and Orsino/Havester, I almost felt embarressed. Yes, I'd saved around a dozen normal mages, which was about the only thing a had to feel proud about but offset by a greater number of Templars who were probably pretty far down the pecking order and only doing their job. To be honest, it was a bit of relief she turned on me and I could get down to getting the memory of Orsino off my chest by undertaking a fight where didn't feel horribly let down, because she had always made it clear she would come after me for the choice I made. Whether I opted for Templars or Mages, I always guessed I'd have to take her on eventually.

Templars are soldiers. The purpose of a soldier is to fight and likely die. They made themselves the enemy.

The Orsino I thought I knew would have waited for Meredith and then let her have it in a full throttle magical assault. But he transforms when she is nowhere in sight, into a monstrosity that can't even do proper magic, and when the only people likely to suffer are his own allies, because we're going to die anyway? Thank you but I'd prefer to fall to my actual enemies - not the person I put my own neck on the line for. I tell you, my mage Hawke, had never felt more ashamed of being a mage and my other Hawkes want as little as possible to do with them in the future. So all in all, between them, Anders and Orsino have alienated a powerful potential ally for the cause - Score!

Well, the Harvester can summon lots of corpses and has a crapload of health, and is also not vulnerable to templar antimagic. As for the timing, he needed time and a lot of corpses; he could have used templar ones, but the armor might interfere with the binding. I think his plan was to charge out of the Gallows and leave a wide swathe for Hawke and company to follow in, but he couldn't control the form.

#205
john-in-france

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Gervaise wrote...

Orsino supplies informationon Necromancy that he knows to be evil to a mage outside the circle system.   What does he imagine he is going to use it for?  That runs counter to the elf we meet at the end of Act 2, beginning of Act 3, who seems to be doing his best to operate within the law, protect his charges and has concern for ordinary citizens as well.  He seemed to be one of the few powerful totally sane and sensible mages we encountered.  In my head I could see my Hawke saying to his friend Fenris, see they're not all like in Tevinter and then after Orsino transforms, Fenris actually says effectively "told you so", to Bethany if not to myself. 

When we finally made it back out to Meredith having encountered possessed templars, blood mages, demons, skeletal undead, shades, arcane horrors and Orsino/Havester, I almost felt embarressed.  Yes, I'd saved around a dozen normal mages, which was about the only thing a had to feel proud about but offset by a greater number of Templars who were probably pretty far down the pecking order and only doing their job.   To be honest, it was a bit of relief she turned on me and I could get down to getting the memory of Orsino off my chest by undertaking a fight  where didn't feel horribly let down, because she had always made it clear she would come after me for the choice I made.  Whether I opted for Templars or Mages,  I always guessed I'd have to take her on eventually. 

The Orsino I thought I knew would have waited for Meredith and then let her have it in a full throttle magical assault.  But he transforms when she is nowhere in sight, into a monstrosity that can't even do proper magic, and when the only people likely to suffer are his own allies, because we're going to die anyway?   Thank you but I'd prefer to fall to my actual enemies - not the person I put my own neck on the line for.   I tell you, my mage Hawke, had never felt more ashamed of being a mage and my other Hawkes want as little as possible to do with them in the future.  So all in all, between them, Anders and Orsino have alienated a powerful potential ally for the cause - Score!


Pretty much my problem with the mage ending...

#206
john-in-france

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I'd rather a mage ending with fire ball wielding Orsino.

#207
miraclemight

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Xilizhra wrote...

The Orsino who sent the note was likely a much younger one, and possibly far more impulsive. He seems to have found a measure of restraint since then.


That couldn't have been the case because Quentin was one of the escaped mages from Starkhaven. Which now that I think of it, makes Orsino's "Meredith was insane, so I kept it hidden" excuse moot. That was in Act I and Meredith wasn't a sadistic mage hunter even in the middles of Act II (Refusing Ser Alrik's Tranquil Solution). Even Anders says that she's misguided in that act.

In short... Orsino's excuse was not a convincing one.

#208
KnightofPhoenix

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Xilizhra wrote...
Well, the Harvester can summon lots of corpses and has a crapload of health, and is also not vulnerable to templar antimagic. As for the timing, he needed time and a lot of corpses; he could have used templar ones, but the armor might interfere with the binding. I think his plan was to charge out of the Gallows and leave a wide swathe for Hawke and company to follow in, but he couldn't control the form.


Yea that's brilliant. Let's show the world that Meredith was right.
Seeing how apostates kept running away from the Gallows, I am pretty sure there were ways to escape other than this.

#209
Xilizhra

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miraclemight wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Orsino who sent the note was likely a much younger one, and possibly far more impulsive. He seems to have found a measure of restraint since then.


That couldn't have been the case because Quentin was one of the escaped mages from Starkhaven. Which now that I think of it, makes Orsino's "Meredith was insane, so I kept it hidden" excuse moot. That was in Act I and Meredith wasn't a sadistic mage hunter even in the middles of Act II (Refusing Ser Alrik's Tranquil Solution). Even Anders says that she's misguided in that act.

In short... Orsino's excuse was not a convincing one.

Wait, what the hell? When did this come out; I can't find it anywhere.

Yea that's brilliant. Let's show the world that Meredith was right.
Seeing how apostates kept running away from the Gallows, I am pretty sure there were ways to escape other than this.

Well, the real reason was that they needed another crap boss fight, and it wasn't written to match Orsino's character. So I think it can be safely ignored. Though it still doesn't make Meredith right. Or the templars.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 août 2011 - 05:22 .


#210
KnightofPhoenix

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Xilizhra wrote...

Yea that's brilliant. Let's show the world that Meredith was right.
Seeing how apostates kept running away from the Gallows, I am pretty sure there were ways to escape other than this.

Well, the real reason was that they needed another crap boss fight, and it wasn't written to match Orsino's character. So I think it can be safely ignored. Though it still doesn't make Meredith right. Or the templars.


It makes her right in one thing at least. Mages need protection from their own stupidity. She isn't the one to talk, but still.

#211
Xilizhra

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yea that's brilliant. Let's show the world that Meredith was right.
Seeing how apostates kept running away from the Gallows, I am pretty sure there were ways to escape other than this.

Well, the real reason was that they needed another crap boss fight, and it wasn't written to match Orsino's character. So I think it can be safely ignored. Though it still doesn't make Meredith right. Or the templars.


It makes her right in one thing at least. Mages need protection from their own stupidity. She isn't the one to talk, but still.

No, mages need protection from the writers' stupidity.

#212
Wulfram

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Desperate times call for desperate measures. The failure on the part of Bioware was not conveying well how desperate the situation was

#213
KnightofPhoenix

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@ Xilizhra
Thanks for saying it for me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 août 2011 - 05:30 .


#214
Ryzaki

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It's not just mages who need writer's protection from stupidity.

#215
Carmen_Willow

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All I wish to say regarding Anders true colors is that Sebastian got it dead on when he told my Hawke that Anders was a selfish man. By the end of the tale, I knew exactly what he meant.

#216
miraclemight

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Xilizhra wrote...

miraclemight wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Orsino who sent the note was likely a much younger one, and possibly far more impulsive. He seems to have found a measure of restraint since then.


That couldn't have been the case because Quentin was one of the escaped mages from Starkhaven. Which now that I think of it, makes Orsino's "Meredith was insane, so I kept it hidden" excuse moot. That was in Act I and Meredith wasn't a sadistic mage hunter even in the middles of Act II (Refusing Ser Alrik's Tranquil Solution). Even Anders says that she's misguided in that act.

In short... Orsino's excuse was not a convincing one.

Wait, what the hell? When did this come out; I can't find it anywhere.


Gascard's mansion. Letter from the First Enchanter of the Circle in Starkhaven.

Modifié par miraclemight, 13 août 2011 - 05:43 .


#217
Xilizhra

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Gascard's mansion. Letter from the First Enchanter of the Circle in Starkhaven.

That doesn't really make sense. The letter mentions "if there were any to begin with." Quentin may have been from Starkhaven, but the Starkhaven Circle fire was extremely public and couldn't have been covered up, so Quentin had to have left much earlier. Additionally, the Starkhaven mages were all in one party discovered in Act of Mercy, and Quentin is first sighted in The First Sacrifice, and this is after he's already been killing for a while and set up his foundry base. The timing makes it impossible.

#218
Sinaxi

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Carmen_Willow wrote...

All I wish to say regarding Anders true colors is that Sebastian got it dead on when he told my Hawke that Anders was a selfish man. By the end of the tale, I knew exactly what he meant.


Oh boy, go Sebastian! POM POMS! :wizard: Cause like, threatening to march on a city just to kill 1 guy isn't selfish or anything...right??!?!

#219
Ryzaki

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Carmen_Willow wrote...

All I wish to say regarding Anders true colors is that Sebastian got it dead on when he told my Hawke that Anders was a selfish man. By the end of the tale, I knew exactly what he meant.


He warned your Hawke several times. I don't see why you'd start a relationship with a revolutist if you didn't want them betraying you. 

There's a reason my Hawkes mainly romance the other LIs unless I rival him. You don't have to worry about getting stabbed in the back over a cause. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 août 2011 - 05:55 .


#220
miraclemight

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"That doesn't really make sense. The letter mentions "if there were any to begin with." Quentin may have been from Starkhaven, but the Starkhaven Circle fire was extremely public and couldn't have been covered up, so Quentin had to have left much earlier. Additionally, the Starkhaven mages were all in one party discovered in Act of Mercy, and Quentin is first sighted in The First Sacrifice, and this is after he's already been killing for a while and set up his foundry base. The timing makes it impossible. "

Gascard was searching for Quentin to learn necromancy.

Gascard was looking for a specific mage that escaped from Starkhaven.

Conclusion: Quentin was one of them.

At least that's what I remember. I'm going to check that codex entry again now, and see if it mentions something else.

PS. The time you do a quest is completely dependant on you.

Modifié par miraclemight, 13 août 2011 - 05:57 .


#221
Xilizhra

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What I'm saying that Quentin may well have escaped Starkhaven, but it can't have been at the fire. I think it was years earlier.

#222
Ryzaki

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Ah but see I believe the Act of Mercy Quest can only be completed *after* you do several quests (Lost Son (which is only available after you recruit Merril).) First Sacrifice is available right away.

Then again DA has a ****ty timeline so it could just be that. >_>

#223
leggywillow

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Xilizhra wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It makes her right in one thing at least. Mages need protection from their own stupidity. She isn't the one to talk, but still.

No, mages need protection from the writers' stupidity.


In the case of Orsino, they needed to protected from game designer's stupidity.  Or from being in a combat-focused video game.  Gaider said that originally we weren't supposed to fight Orsino, but someone decided that we needed another boss fight.

Modifié par leggywillow, 13 août 2011 - 06:08 .


#224
Fraevar

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leggywillow wrote...
In the case of Orsino, they needed to protected from game designer's stupidity.  Or from being in a combat-focused video game.  Gaider said that originally we weren't supposed to fight Orsino, but someone decided that we needed another boss fight.


*headdesk* Seriously? That is the reason for that completely random, utterly ridiculous bossfight which raises more questions than answers because they just reused the Harvester model from Golems without even having it in the proper context? Oh BioWare...

Modifié par Delerius_Jedi, 13 août 2011 - 06:19 .


#225
john-in-france

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Xilizhra wrote...

What I'm saying that Quentin may well have escaped Starkhaven, but it can't have been at the fire. I think it was years earlier.


I agree.

I checked both the Wiki and Codex, whilst the letter says that he was searching for mages from Starkhaven, there is no confirmation that Quentin is from Starkhaven.