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[Carmen_Willow]

Xilizhra wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Marethari's.

If I remember correctly, she doesn't become an abomination until the 3rd act.  I think she tells Merrill that the mirror is cursed long before that.

She says it's tainted, which it isn't, as we can tell from the total lack of ghouls in the Alienage.

It was tainted, Merethari just didn't know that Merrill cleansed it with blood magic.  She wasn't lying, she just didn't have all the facts.  However, just because it no longer creates ghouls is no evidence that it is going to be the salvation of the elven people. Merrill is relying on the word of a demon that the mirror is somehow going to make a difference, even when a demon lies to her in the Fade in Act 2 (I think) when you rescue Fenriel. 

[Xilizhra]

Interestingly, the same demon will do the same thing to Fenris. And Varric, for that matter.

In any case, I'm fairly sure Merrill knew what the Eluvians were; the most Audacity told her was how to repair it.

[berelinde]

Xilizhra wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Marethari's.

If I remember correctly, she doesn't become an abomination until the 3rd act.  I think she tells Merrill that the mirror is cursed long before that.

She says it's tainted, which it isn't, as we can tell from the total lack of ghouls in the Alienage.

Merrill herself said that the mirror was tainted and that she had to use blood magic to cleanse it. Who's to say that she was 100% successful?

Don't get me wrong. I adore Merrill. But she does have a way of not seeing what she doesn't want to see. Just like everyone else, really.

[Carmen_Willow]

Xilizhra wrote...

Interestingly, the same demon will do the same thing to Fenris. And Varric, for that matter.

In any case, I'm fairly sure Merrill knew what the Eluvians were; the most Audacity told her was how to repair it.

If I could make up my own argument to Merrill it would be "In what way is this mirror going to save your people.  And what do you base this belief on?"  She may know that it's a mirror that will take you from place to place, but my question would still be the same. " How does this make the plight of your people better? Explain to me how the benefit outweighs the cost."

I know, Fenris can be just as obstinate and stubbon, but  his brand of obstinate doesn't drive me nuts.  That's all I'm saying.

[Xilizhra]

[quote]Merrill herself said that the mirror was tainted and that she had to use blood magic to cleanse it. Who's to say that she was 100% successful?[quote]
If it was tainted, Anders could sense it.

[Carmen_Willow]

Thank you for the civil discussion this evening. Please forgive me, but it's growing late where I live and I must retire. Again, thanks.

[dragonflight288]

If I could make up my own argument to Merrill it would be "In what way is this mirror going to save your people. And what do you base this belief on?" She may know that it's a mirror that will take you from place to place, but my question would still be the same. " How does this make the plight of your people better? Explain to me how the benefit outweighs the cost."

I know, Fenris can be just as obstinate and stubbon, but his brand of obstinate doesn't drive me nuts. That's all I'm saying.

I think I have a good answer to that question. She isn't hoping it'll save her people. She's hoping it'll help save what little is left of their heritage. The purpose of the Dalish, the very reason they avoided joining the humans after the sacking of the Dales, is because they are seeking out ancient elven artifacts, the lost language, their ancient culture. Heck, they don't even have their whole religion restored because most of the knowledge is lost.

She is hoping that by recreating an ancient mirror, she will have learned a great deal on ancient elven construction, elven magic, and even elven culture because she could, theoretically, restore a very powerful artifact for her people. Heck, if all the clans had an eluvian, they could contact each other quickly.

Simply think on how fast the elves on Sundermount could have had more halla delivered if they could get in contact with another clan almost instantly.

In her mind, the potential gains far outweigh the risks. It isn't fool-proof but nothing in life is. Heck, Hawke didn't know if he would make a profit going to the deep roads in Act 1, but did anyway because the potential profits certainly beat getting arrested by the templars.

[phaonica]

dragonflight288 wrote...

She is hoping that by recreating an ancient mirror, she will have
learned a great deal on ancient elven construction, elven magic, and
even elven culture because she could, theoretically, restore a very
powerful artifact for her people. Heck, if all the clans had an eluvian,
they could contact each other quickly. 

So is the one and only reason that Marethari objects to the mirror being restored is because the demon helping Merrill might possess her? If the mirror could have been purified without using blood magic (that is without the need to ask a demon for help), would Marethari have been okay with using the mirror?

Modifié par phaonica, 08 septembre 2011 - 03:48 .

[dragonflight288]

Merrill: If I had lyrium, I could have used that, but I didn't!

Essentially, Merrill needed power that she herself without blood magic didn't have.

And in Origins, Merethari is also against studying the mirror because she's so scared of the darkspawn taint. In Act 2, she outright says she told the clan Merrill may bring back he taint. I honestly think she's afraid of the tainted mirror (which has been purified) to a point of overdoing it.

As for the demon possessing Merrill, the only in-game evidence of that happening is the word of a possessed Merethari. There is absolutely no evidence she is right or wrong, so that one comes down to "do we trust her word at this point?"

She doesn't give us a reason not to help Merrill...or a clear one at any rate until that moment.

So...no. I don't think Merethari would have been okay with her using the mirror in any circumstances.

[phaonica]

dragonflight288 wrote...

She doesn't give us a reason not to help Merrill...or a clear one at any rate until that moment.

So...no. I don't think Merethari would have been okay with her using the mirror in any circumstances.

So Marethari seems to be afraid of a *purified* mirror. Maybe she thinks that the taint will just come back, or something? Or maybe she thinks that even without the taint, the mirror is dangerous?

[Heidenreich]

phaonica wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

She doesn't give us a reason not to help Merrill...or a clear one at any rate until that moment.

So...no. I don't think Merethari would have been okay with her using the mirror in any circumstances.

So Marethari seems to be afraid of a *purified* mirror. Maybe she thinks that the taint will just come back, or something? Or maybe she thinks that even without the taint, the mirror is dangerous?

Even with out the taint, the mirror itself is dangerous, because there are very few people left in the world who actually understand its magic. And its old magic, and everyone knows old magic is unstable.

At the end of the day, its just one of those "you really shouldn't play with that" things that Merethari knows to be not such a good idea.

[Sabariel]

The only companion I can say that I truly didn't like was Merrill. She creeped me out in every way possible.

[phaonica]

Heidenreich wrote...

Even with out the taint, the mirror itself is dangerous, because there are very few people left in the world who actually understand its magic. And its old magic, and everyone knows old magic is unstable.

At the end of the day, its just one of those "you really shouldn't play with that" things that Merethari knows to be not such a good idea.

I suppose. It just seems odd that a Keeper and a clan would not be willing to take a risk in order to restore a seemingly significant piece of their history, unless that Keeper had decided that the said artifact was extraordinarily dangerous, even when not tainted.

[ninja0809]

The only companion i liked 100% was bethany, I think bioware did a good job making her dialogues feel like i actually i have a sister. But you guys just had to take the best companion away for most of the game = =...dumb move.

I didn't like Merril unless she was a romance option, Yes she's cute as a romance option, but other than that she is just a stupid, stubborn elf.

Isabela was alright i guess, funny witty and a good companion/friend to have around, but i was really angry when she tried to justify her actions from stealing the book when so many innocent people in Kirkwall died from the Qunari that day.

My biggest disappointment was Anders. He's not the same chill dude in awakening, and was rather annoying most of the game. At the end i felt killing him was just letting him off easy for what he has done....hmph >"<

Varric and aveline were pretty well written i suppose, i enjoyed their company. Although Aveline's constant plea for help about her guard duties is a little bit annoying.

Fenris, what can you say, even though he hates mages with a passion, he is just too cool. He is the best romance option IMO (his awesome voice actor might play a big role in that).

Carver...ugh....he is the reason i don't play mages, all i can say.

[ladyofpayne]

Merril is stupid B*tch.
Isabela is a Wh*re.
I don't love them and made my all MHawkes a gays with Anders.
Feinris irritate me. The big boy.

[berelinde]

Heidenreich wrote...
At the end of the day, its just one of those "you really shouldn't play with that" things that Merethari knows to be not such a good idea.

And like every other "you really shouldn't play with that" thing, there's always somebody who won't rest until they do. It's just one of those things.

[Knight of Dane]

berelinde wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...
At the end of the day, its just one of those "you really shouldn't play with that" things that Merethari knows to be not such a good idea.

And like every other "you really shouldn't play with that" thing, there's always somebody who won't rest until they do. It's just one of those things.

Many would want a actual reason not to play with "That thing" we all know that just telling someone to back off doesn't always work.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 08 septembre 2011 - 10:45 .

[esper]

berelinde wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...
At the end of the day, its just one of those "you really shouldn't play with that" things that Merethari knows to be not such a good idea.

And like every other "you really shouldn't play with that" thing, there's always somebody who won't rest until they do. It's just one of those things.

True I have a large, must push the glowing red bottum gene. If I must not push a bottom I need a better reason than it is best not pushed. In fact if someone say it is better not pushed and leave it at that I would push the bottom immedieatly just to see what happened and why it is a bad idea to push the bottom. Mathari should really have come with a better reason than: Don't.

[dragonflight288]

Again, Merethari's actual reasons for fearing the Mirror are never made clear to Hawke or the player. She won't even touch the lore involved with them. Yet a possessed her tells us what the demon wanted. Either she knew and never told us or that was the demon playing mind-games with us, telling the truth or not. She says she's worried about the taint, but because Merrill and the elves in the alienage don't become infected, we know she succeeded.

As for the mirror itself being dangerous? The only thing I think that proves that is it's completely unknown and mysterious. We know Morrigan used one as a portal. We know the Tevinter tried to recreate them and got fancy phones. We know the darkspawn can taint it.

Beyond that, everything else is speculation and hearsay. What I do know from in-game evidence only, is that Merrill doesn't tell Hawke about the eluvian until she has actually got to know Hawke. Merethari doesn't tell either of them why it's a bad idea other than....it's a bad idea.

We also know that Merethari has told the clan that Merrill may bring back the taint and she's a blood mage, thereby making the entire clan hate Merrill. But is still appealing to Merrill to come back even after that. I honestly don't think that after Act 2 the clan would ever accept Merrill as their keeper because they hate her so much.

We also know that Merrill is taking every precaution she can, even bringing Hawke along to kill her should things go amiss in Act 3. Then we have Merethari getting herself possessed because she wanted to protect Merrill...from a threat that maybe or maybe not was there. And the only evidence that the was one was the word of an abomination. Granted, the only evidence there wasn't a threat...well there isn't any because Merethari didn't share it with us.

So ultimately I think Merrill's whole story is whether or not we believe the potential rewards are worth the risks. There is enough evidence to go either way. And if there's anything concrete, Merethari certainly doesn't share it.

[syllogi]

dragonflight288 wrote...

As for the mirror itself being dangerous? The only thing I think that proves that is it's completely unknown and mysterious. We know Morrigan used one as a portal. We know the Tevinter tried to recreate them and got fancy phones. We know the darkspawn can taint it.

Beyond that, everything else is speculation and hearsay. What I do know from in-game evidence only, is that Merrill doesn't tell Hawke about the eluvian until she has actually got to know Hawke. Merethari doesn't tell either of them why it's a bad idea other than....it's a bad idea.

We also know that that very mirror infected Tamlen and Mahariel with the darkspawn taint, that's canon no matter who the Warden was.  Whether or not Marethari tells Hawke about this is irrelevant, she knows what happened, Merrill knows what happened, and their clan knows what happened.  Even if Marethari wasn't "scaring" people, they have a right to be wary of someone who is messing with magic that is known to be destructive.

Just because the mirror didn't infect anyone else while it was in the alienage, doesn't mean that it wouldn't do so again in the future if it were fixed.  I think Marethari was easy prey for the demon because she was rightfully worried about Merrill, and was more suseptible to corruption because of it.

[dragonflight288]

We also know that that very mirror infected Tamlen and Mahariel with the darkspawn taint, that's canon no matter who the Warden was. Whether or not Marethari tells Hawke about this is irrelevant, she knows what happened, Merrill knows what happened, and their clan knows what happened. Even if Marethari wasn't "scaring" people, they have a right to be wary of someone who is messing with magic that is known to be destructive.

Just because the mirror didn't infect anyone else while it was in the alienage, doesn't mean that it wouldn't do so again in the future if it were fixed. I think Marethari was easy prey for the demon because she was rightfully worried about Merrill, and was more suseptible to corruption because of it.

It could possibly be tainted by the darkspawn again. We don't know. And I'm not saying it's a good or bad idea. We know that the same mirror under a set of circumstances with the darkspawn taint did infect Tamlen and Dalish Warden. We don't know when it was tainted, how long it's been in the ruins, There isn't enough evidence to say what will or won't happen when the mirror is fixed.

I can understand Merethari and the clan fearing it and being cautious, and I hope other people can understand what Merrill was trying to do. So we come back to one of my original points. Do we believe the potential rewards are worth the risk?

The answer will vary from gamer to gamer.

[phaonica]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I can understand Merethari and the clan fearing it and being cautious, and I hope other people can understand what Merrill was trying to do. So we come back to one of my original points. Do we believe the potential rewards are worth the risk?

The answer will vary from gamer to gamer.

I had just wanted to explore was whether or not Marethari had legitimate fears of a purified mirror. To me, the conflict might be more compelling if some actual danger from a purified mirror was described/shown. To me, if there is no evidence of danger then there is no risk to weigh against the rewards.

[dragonflight288]

I had just wanted to explore was whether or not Marethari had legitimate fears of a purified mirror. To me, the conflict might be more compelling if some actual danger from a purified mirror was described/shown. To me, if there is no evidence of danger then there is no risk to weigh against the rewards.

And that's the way I saw it. But many people felt differently and that leads to some incredibly heated debates over Merrill and the eluvians. I honestly don't think Merethari feared a purified mirror so much as she feared what had been done in the past and can't see past it.

[phaonica]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And that's the way I saw it. But many people felt differently and that leads to some incredibly heated debates over Merrill and the eluvians. I honestly don't think Merethari feared a purified mirror so much as she feared what had been done in the past and can't see past it.

My first reaction to Merrill was that if she has to turn to blood magic and demons to get what she wants, then it's already not worth it (I've somewhat gotten over this stance, however). Also that nearly everyone who deals with demons thinks they are being careful, thinks they can handle the consequences, thinks they can get the upper hand, and most of them are wrong. So when I first met her, I had no reason to trust her, and thought she was making a mistake. Merrill may not have had the opportunity to stop Marethari from being possessed, but that in itself kind of suggests that Merrill couldn't control the damage her association with the demon could do.

[Knight of Dane]

Hawke can also say: "We don't get to choose who pays for our actions." or soemthing like that.