613 réponses à ce sujet

[deegio]

Isabela doesn't, "sleep with everything that moves." She specifically mentions she doesn't sleep with sailors under her command, she talks about dealing with unwanted advances in the Hangman, and she brushes off the bad poet (sorry, bad poet). She enjoys having casual sex, but that doesn't mean she's not selective.

[The Baconer]

Fenris - Shut the hell up about mages.

Anders - Shut the hell up about mages.

Merrill - Shut the hell up about mirrors.

[GreenClover]

 Merrill. The only one companion I really wanted to kill, really, but what the hell, I have to side with Meredith for this, and I don't want to do so. So this little annoying girl managed to survive. Before I met her in person I had thought she was going to be my favourite character, but alas. She was too cute, too huggable, too idiotically friendly, her face reminded me a hurt puppy too much, and I dislike such things greatly. Sometimes the things she says are so incredibly silly that you wonder if she just pretends to be all that nice and funny while beeing some kind of very clever evil person. Maybe, the idea was to show us some lonely introvert brought into a foreign world and unable to deal with it properly, but Merril doesn't look this way. I don't believe any sane person, no matter how much rejected by his/her own kind, will speak so cheerfully about burglary or hiding from guards.  And, argh, her pride. "I am a keeeeper, I know what I'm doing! I will save my clan, and I don't care if they do not want me to do so!". Anders. who knows the cost of dealing with so-called spirits from his painfull expirience, and much more expirienced Merethari can go to hell. Oh, and she is a dalish. Dalish are my least favourite people in DA. Though good for Merrill, she doesn't show all this "You-stupid-honorless-outsider-our arrows-are-pointing-at-you" stuff. This is what I like about her. 
I missed the BG-times while dealing with Merrill  I mean, if people don't like Isabela or Fenris, they can just pass by and do not recruite them, even though Isa is a plot-driving character. It's a little bit more difficult with Anders, but you still can send him away in the second act. If you don't like Carver or Bethany, you can simply leave them on the Deep Roads. Mind me, with Bethany you even have to different ways to get her killed (I don't know who would like to let Meredith kill the little sister cold-blooded, but still). The only companions you can't get rid off are Aveline, Varric and Merrill. But while Varric is necessary for the plot, and you've been through a lot with Aveline, there is no reason why you can't just bring Merrill to the city and leave her there. And yet, even if you say you're not going to visit her, she's still being added to the party. I. Do. Not. Like. It. 

Modifié par GreenClover, 20 septembre 2011 - 07:15 .

[Xilizhra]

Anders. who knows the cost of dealing with so-called spirits from his painfull expirience, and much more expirienced Merethari can go to hell.

Right, one of whom got possessed and went pretty much crazygonuts, and the other of whom went full-on murderous abomination for unclear reasons that could very well have had nothing to do with protecting Merrill. Merrill herself never hurt anyone with her magic or her projects; it was all other people being manipulated into killing themselves by Marethari, or Marethari siding with a demon to kill Merrill and Hawke.

[GreenClover]

After reading this tread I was nearly sure you wouldn't leave my post unnoticed)) 

Right, one of whom got possessed and went pretty much crazygonuts, and the other of whom went full-on murderous abomination for unclear reasons that could very well have had nothing to do with protecting Merrill.

Crazy or not, Anders still knows to what good intentions may lead when you deal with demons. Merrill, on the other hand, looks awfully cheerful about her Fade-friend ("He offered me help, he was so nice!", omygod). It's only before we come to the cave in Act 3 when she seems to realize how dangerous it might be. Before that - nothing but "the spirit helps me!". But alright, let's put Anders aside. Even Flemeth gives her a hint that she's doing something wrong. What reaction does the woman get, if we look at Merrill's actions afterwards? "Thank you, but nyah, I'm 100% right!".
And thank you, I completely disagree with  this "evil Marethari" way of thinking. I'm not even sure if you are serious about her siding with demon to kill Merrill (lol wut?). It is quite obvious to me that love for Merrill was the only reason why Marethari did what she did. She acted like a very bad keeper when she left her clan and went up the mountain to die, and she had seemed to be a very careful keeper before that, sometimes too careful. You really think she could have done it just to kill Merrill?   Sounds odd, not to say more, if you ask me. I'd rather say the demon could be trying to possess both Merrill and Marethari, playing on the pride and historical interests of the First and on incredible love of the keeper (like "She'ssss going to become possssesssed, but you can prevent thisss, if you really love herrr"). But it's just a theory, which doesn't even belong to me.
As for "people being manipulated by Marethari", I suppouse, you're referring to that incident with non-dalish elf in Act 2 who ran away in horror? Nah, I don't think it has anything to do with manipulations, he was brought up as an Andrasrian and had to be a little... let's call it "overreacting" about BM. For example, Lily in DAO shows very similar reaction, when the truth about Jowan is revealed. 

Modifié par GreenClover, 21 septembre 2011 - 02:31 .

[jlb524]

The odd thing about Marethari is that instead of telling Merrill and/or Hawke about Audacity's supposed plans she just let it possess her for some odd reason.

Also, Merrill has stated numerous times that she believes Fade spirits are dangerous (in banter with Anders).

[Xilizhra]

It is quite obvious to me that love for Merrill was the only reason why Marethari did what she did. She acted like a very bad keeper when she left her clan and went up the mountain to die, and she had seemed to be a very careful keeper before that, sometimes too careful. You really think she could have done it just to kill Merrill?

You're rather quick to trust the word of a murderous abomination.

[TheChris92]

ladyofpayne wrote...

Merill- naive and stupid girl.
Isabela like Morry "Love is stupid, blah-blah-blah" , "harm in youth", then "I love you", so predictable and boring. I'd like to see female character as Aribeth- strong but feminity, not a wh*re and selfish b*tch - Isabela seduce Hawke and tell him that it was just for fun, she just backstub Hawke with foliat of Kolsine like stubborn wh*re as she is. Also she sleeps with everything that moves, her apperiance just fanservice, and she has some deseases. 
Also I don't like how Bio advertise her in trailer Destiny. Anders is much better for MHawke than Isabela.

I can don't take her, I know it. But there is a problem- she is only one LI from FChars better than Merril. For Female Hawke there is no problem, thanks the Makers, but all my Mhawke become a gays. No one normal men want to choose between stupid girl and lying wh*re. 

I'd like to give her in slavery like Fenris.

And that's a universal truth, eh? Using curse words to further your point isn't healthy, and makes it hard for others to take your arguments seriously. Just saying.

Modifié par TheChris92, 21 septembre 2011 - 03:30 .

[jlb524]

My Hawke is a chick, so that doesn't apply to her anyway XD

[GreenClover]

Xilizhra wrote...

You're rather quick to trust the word of a murderous abomination.

It has nothing to do with trust, it's just logic. If you can give me logical reasons for demon to help Merrill out of kindness and for Marethari to side with demons to kill Merrill and Hawke, I'll consider them. Unti this, sorry, I may as well say that you are rather unjust to blame someone else for what is partly your favorite character's fault. Besides, Marethari wasn't a murderous abomination at the moment the talked to us: murderous abominations will hardly ask you to kill them. 

jlb524 wrote...

The odd thing about Marethari is that instead of telling Merrill and/or Hawke about Audacity's supposed plans she just let it possess her for some odd reason.
Also, Merrill has stated numerous times that she believes Fade spirits are dangerous (in banter with Anders).

I bet Marethari taught Merrill a lot of dont-play-with-demons-lessons, since the girl was her First. Regarding how Merrill acted about this  particular demon, I think the keeper understood that Merrill wasn't going to change her mind anyway. That time she realized the danger herself, but she still came to the mountain. 
And yes, she stated this. And she also stated that the demon is "very nice" and that it will help her just fine, what it surely wasn't going to do. It's like she understands the danger of becoming an abomination, but doesn't believe it will happen to her until the very time of randevous with the demon.

Modifié par GreenClover, 21 septembre 2011 - 03:43 .

[goofyomnivore]

I'll throw my two cents in.

Varric and Aveline are probably the two I like the most. I felt the interactions with them grew into an organic friendship over the course of the story.

Carver, I didn't really like at all for a long time. However I truly appreciate his character now. I think Bethany is more "likeable", but Carver is a far better character. Out of all the characters in the game, I felt like he really grew throughout the story individually, and added meaningful depth to his character(Grey Warden path).

Bethany is okay, so is Sebastian. I was pleasantly surprised Sebastian grew a back bone, and promised to unite Starkhaven against me for not executing Anders. Bethany was really likeable, but not very memorable.

I like all the romanced characters better non romanced. However I wish we could of seen more of Justice from Anders. Overall Anders was pretty dull for being part abomination. It felt more like Anders when angry glows blue. More scenes of Justice and I would of liked him a lot more. I still think he is an okay character. I just wish we could of seen more of his "struggle" with Justice.

I'm hetero, so for me Merrill and Isabela were big disappointments in the romance department. I like both exponentially more when I don't romance them for some reason. I just don't feel that those characters make good partners for my Hawkes I guess. I tend to go (friend) with both of them romanced or not. I don't really care for the rival path for either.

Fenris the only character I can't muster up anything to say about it. He has flashes of where "hey this guy could be interesting", and then all that fades away as he just concedes to Hawke via apology.

My tiers of "likeness" would be;

Aveline, Varric, Carver
Anders
Merrill Isabela
Sebastian
Fenris Bethany

Modifié par strive, 21 septembre 2011 - 03:56 .

[Knight of Dane]

GreenClover wrote...
I bet Marethari taught Merrill a lot of dont-play-with-demons-lessons, since the girl was her First. Regarding how Merrill acted about this  particular demon, I think the keeper understood that Merrill wasn't going to change her mind anyway. That time she realized the danger herself, but she still came to the mountain. 
And yes, she stated this. And she also stated that the demon is "very nice" and that it will help her just fine, what it surely wasn't going to do. It's like she understands the danger of becoming an abomination, but doesn't believe it will happen to her until the very time of randevous with the demon.

Actually no, the Dalish doesn't even have a word for demon, they are spirits just like those that human's call spirits, they are just perhaps no so nice.

[syllogi]

ladyofpayne wrote...

Merill- naive and stupid girl.
Isabela like Morry "Love is stupid, blah-blah-blah" , "harm in youth", then "I love you", so predictable and boring. I'd like to see female character as Aribeth- strong but feminity, not a wh*re and selfish b*tch - Isabela seduce Hawke and tell him that it was just for fun, she just backstub Hawke with foliat of Kolsine like stubborn wh*re as she is. Also she sleeps with everything that moves, her apperiance just fanservice, and she has some deseases. 
Also I don't like how Bio advertise her in trailer Destiny. Anders is much better for MHawke than Isabela.

I can don't take her, I know it. But there is a problem- she is only one LI from FChars better than Merril. For Female Hawke there is no problem, thanks the Makers, but all my Mhawke become a gays. No one normal men want to choose between stupid girl and lying wh*re. 

I'd like to give her in slavery like Fenris.

I've seen you mention Aribeth before -- out of curiosity, have you even played NWN1?  Do you understand that Aribeth betrayed Neverwinter, and led the Luskan army to murder countless innocents, of her own free will?  She may have felt "wronged" by what happened to Fenthick, but she was a paladin, and had taken vows to uphold justice.  It is truly bizarre that you keep using her as an example of a "strong but feminine" character.  If anything, it is her weakness that defines her.

I'm just going to have to develop a ladyofpayne drinking game where I take a drink every time you post something that makes no sense whatsoever.  Thanks in advance for the alcoholism.

[Wulfram]

The extent of free will Aribeth had is pretty unclear. What with the super powerful lizard lady invading her dreams.

[hoorayforicecream]

deegio wrote...

Isabela doesn't, "sleep with everything that moves." She specifically mentions she doesn't sleep with sailors under her command, she talks about dealing with unwanted advances in the Hangman, and she brushes off the bad poet (sorry, bad poet). She enjoys having casual sex, but that doesn't mean she's not selective.

She also turns down Emile in act 3 if Hawke asks. Actually, one of the banters with Sebastian is quite telling from this perspective - Sebastian asks her why she's still around in Act 2, and if she's not in a relationship with Hawke, she'll answer that she's got a paid membership to the Blooming Rose. If she was really that willing to go to bed with anyone, spending that sort of money wouldn't make any sense. I saw that as more of a "She knows what she wants, she can keep any feelings out of it, and she gets it handled professionally by people who know what they're doing" sort of deal. Why bother with casual encounters with people of varying aptitude and possible nasty emotional attachments (that may or may not result in blood being spilled) when you can have a better baseline?

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 21 septembre 2011 - 04:09 .

[syllogi]

Wulfram wrote...

The extent of free will Aribeth had is pretty unclear. What with the super powerful lizard lady invading her dreams.

Eh...I think her dialogue in Hordes of the Underdark shows that she is guilty because she chose to give in to revenge and hatred, even when she didn't truly love Fenthick.  If she could conveniently blame Morag's dreams, she wouldn't be beating herself up about it even after death (in my opinion).

Of course she was influenced by Morag, but I look at it as being the same as if she came to her in person...Aribeth still had to choose to become a blackguard and betray Neverwinter.

Edit:  Anyway, my point is, Aribeth is deeply flawed, not some pillar of strength and perfection.  And that's a good thing, when developing a character.

Modifié par TeenZombie, 21 septembre 2011 - 04:19 .

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Carver would make a TERRIBLE city guard.

This is Kirkwall we're talking about here.

[Wulfram]

TeenZombie wrote...

Eh...I think her dialogue in Hordes of the Underdark shows that she is guilty because she chose to give in to revenge and hatred, even when she didn't truly love Fenthick.  If she could conveniently blame Morag's dreams, she wouldn't be beating herself up about it even after death (in my opinion).

Of course she was influenced by Morag, but I look at it as being the same as if she came to her in person...Aribeth still had to choose to become a blackguard and betray Neverwinter.

I tend to regard HotU Aribeth as Bioware trolling the Aribeth fans.  Because her portrayal, making switching sides at the drop of a hat pretty much her one defining feature, there is just so ridiculous.

But I think you'd be guilty about committing horrible crimes even if you did them under mind control.  And it's still a failure of will - resisting this sort of thing is what Paladins are supposed to be good at, and her anger is what left her vulnerable.

Edit:  Anyway, my point is, Aribeth is deeply flawed, not some pillar of strength and perfection.  And that's a good thing, when developing a character.

True

[Giggles_Manically]

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...

Carver would make a TERRIBLE city guard.
[/quote]
This is Kirkwall we're talking about here.[/quote
He would get kicked out in a week.

Hell he would get kicked out his first DAY knowing him.

[GreenClover]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Actually no, the Dalish doesn't even have a word for demon, they are spirits just like those that human's call spirits, they are just perhaps no so nice.

I remember that well, but if the word 'demon' bothers you, let's call it "dont-play-with-spirits-lessons", I don't mind
Though there is some point in calling them all the same way. I recall being slightly surprised with that guy from mage origin, who said: "I'm a spirit of *insert something glorious, I don't remember his name* but I don't care for your fate, little thing, good luck with being eaten by a demon!". At that moment they actually looked the same to me. 

Modifié par GreenClover, 21 septembre 2011 - 04:54 .

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Carver would make a TERRIBLE city guard.

This is Kirkwall we're talking about here.

He would get kicked out in a week.

Hell he would get kicked out his first DAY knowing him.

People can be competent in Kirkwall only by sheer accident, and Carver's just as likely as the next fool to stumble on it.  Surely it couldn't get any worse.  He makes a good Warden by all appearances.

[Quething]

Addai67 wrote...

People can be competent in Kirkwall only by sheer accident, and Carver's just as likely as the next fool to stumble on it.  Surely it couldn't get any worse.  He makes a good Warden by all appearances.

Ah, but Wardens don't live in Kirkwall.

[Knight of Dane]

GreenClover wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Actually no, the Dalish doesn't even have a word for demon, they are spirits just like those that human's call spirits, they are just perhaps no so nice.

I remember that well, but if the word 'demon' bothers you, let's call it "dont-play-with-spirits-lessons", I don't mind
Though there is some point in calling them all the same way. I recall being slightly surprised with that guy from mage origin, who said: "I'm a spirit of *insert something glorious, I don't remember his name* but I don't care for your fate, little thing, good luck with being eaten by a demon!". At that moment they actually looked the same to me. 

The Spirit of Valor, and he seemed very interested in killing you to me.

"Hello little mage, want a weapon to defend yourself? Come and get it, just a little tests first *Attacks*"

Honestly i think the border to what humans call corruption to a demon lies in the spirit's curiosity and will to seek out mortals.
The Demon of Sloth in DA:O Mage Origin was no more aggressive than the Spirit of Valor.

[SerraAdvocate]

Knight of Dane wrote...

GreenClover wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Actually no, the Dalish doesn't even have a word for demon, they are spirits just like those that human's call spirits, they are just perhaps no so nice.

I remember that well, but if the word 'demon' bothers you, let's call it "dont-play-with-spirits-lessons", I don't mind
Though there is some point in calling them all the same way. I recall being slightly surprised with that guy from mage origin, who said: "I'm a spirit of *insert something glorious, I don't remember his name* but I don't care for your fate, little thing, good luck with being eaten by a demon!". At that moment they actually looked the same to me. 

The Spirit of Valor, and he seemed very interested in killing you to me.

"Hello little mage, want a weapon to defend yourself? Come and get it, just a little tests first *Attacks*"

Honestly i think the border to what humans call corruption to a demon lies in the spirit's curiosity and will to seek out mortals.
The Demon of Sloth in DA:O Mage Origin was no more aggressive than the Spirit of Valor.

From my perspective, mortal mages can reach out to Spirits and Demons both and tap them for power (healing, blood magic, etc). Bad things only happen when those Spirits and Demons find their way to get into the mortal world - and as Isabela pointed out in one of her conversations with Anders, pure ideas only work in a realm of ideas, and tend to have bad consequences in a world that's not so black and white. Pure Justice (whatever that means) tends to have negative consequences for a lot of people, as do pure Sloth or Desire or Pride.

[Knight of Dane]

If we go to the fade in DA:3 i hope we get to meet a new spirit without it turning bad for once....

It seems to me that you can indeed deal with spirits/demons, but that it often involves some kind of sacrifice to do so. For Merrill it is her mirror, the demon hopes to use it, i find it hard to beleive that a demon of pride wouldn't have a catch to help her. With Anders he's possessed and loses his identity. Wynne looses part of her freedom as the spirit is bound to her life, but it doesn't seem that the spirit want something in return. Morrigan never deals with demons, which must be the wisest choise, avoid the temptation alltogether and it won't become an issue.