613 réponses à ce sujet

[Lilaeth]

I don't like Sebastian, due mainly to his bringing up memories of the rather religious upbringing I had!

[Carmen_Willow]

Heidenreich wrote...

ThePhoenixKing wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

OnionXI wrote...
There are plenty of threads in this section about which characters you love and want to draw pictures of. I'm not sure why the idea of one thread that is about the opposite is so offensive. Not liking a character doesn't mean the person just doesn't understand that character.

For example, Anders. I understand his motivations and why he does what he does. I also understand that every conflict he had with the templars after his Joining was because he went looking for it. Remember Rylock? Still, I helped him out with his templar issues back then and by the end of Awakening I figured I finally earned his loyalty and dedication to the Wardens - the game even told me as much.

DA2 rolls around and it's "blighted Wardens" this and "oppressive Templars" that. He must have been a Warden for six months. In my assessment "destroyed" is a fair description for the Anders I was familiar with. As the game progresses there's even less of Anders and more of Justice. By act 3 he loses all of his redeeming humor. I thought Justice was a pretty "meh" character in Awakening so I wasn't crazy about him becoming the dominant personality of a character I liked. I've seen people call it getting a backbone or being stronger as the game progresses but I see it as a descent into losing himself more and more.

If I look at Anders in just DA2 and try to block out my perspective from Awakening it really just boils down to, "do I care about this guy's problems?" The answer for me is no, even when I'm playing a mage. I just don't sympathize with him or the "plight of mages".  So when he antagonizes characters I do like, such as Aveline, for not supporting his cause as much as he thinks they should I get annoyed with him.

You appear not to have read his official short story, (get the PDF from his character page), because your idea of what happened is explicitly contradicted by canonical events.  One of the biggest narrative flaws of the game is that the information in the short story doesn't make it into the actual game narrative.The most relevant passage is this: 

Jennifer Brandis Helper wrote...
I struggle to stand, to open my eyes and face them like a man, not the chewed-up pile of hurlock spew I feel like. I can see them now. It's Rolan; of course it is. The price I had to pay for the Grey Wardens' generosity in recruiting me out from under the templars' noses. He was one of them, before his Chantry was destroyed by the darkspawn and he felt the calling to join the Wardens. No one ever said a deal had been struck, but as soon as the templars stopped their protests, Rolan turned up in the Wardens, and we've fielded every assignment together since. It's all too clear the templars sent him to keep watch.

What happens after that explains why he has such negative feelings about the Wardens, and why he ran. Now, this short story has a lot of problems. I can't comprehend how this happened on my Warden's watch... she would never let the templars touch Anders. I can only assume it was done behind her back, when she was away during Witch Hunt.

But anyway, the story makes it clear: the templars actively opposed and protested the Wardens until the Wardens let a templar into their ranks to control Anders. And then they stripped him away from the companions he'd come to care about, removed him from the company of the friendships he'd built, and assigned him to a templar.

Without that information, his leaving the wardens and his bitterness towards them are really confusing. And based on how many people tailor their entire perception of the character around a complete misapprehension of his backstory during the period between Awakening and DA2, it's very clear that this information needed to be presented somewhere in game.

So yes, I'd say you don't have the best understanding of the character, but it's simply because you didn't have access to all the facts when you attempted to form your theories.

Just because that short story is canon (apparently) doesn't make it any less stupid, if not a full-fledged Voodoo Shark. Honestly, I can understand bringing a character back for the name and nostalgia value, but if his or her personality is going to be completely different, then why bother? And don't give me that "it's the influence of Justice" nonsense, as we never get a clear explanation for how merged they are, both in-game and on a metatextual level, and every attempt to either explain or simply hand-wave it away just raises even more questions.

So yeah, not a big fan of Anders in DAII. I don't care what excuses the writers invoke to justify it; he goes from a rather snarky, loyal and overall likeable guy in Awakening to a deserting, obsessive terrorist in DAII, and I find it hard to believe that even a well-constructed explanation would be satisfactory, let alone the half-assed excuses they ended up giving us.

Also not a big fan of Fenris, though I must say I like him better than Anders (admittedly, that's saying you prefer getting punched in the face over being kicked in the groin, in the end, neither are very pleasant). It's easy to see why people like Fenris, and I definitely feel that there are some sympathetic elements to the character; his horrible past, the fact that he's illiterate, his general feelings of alienation in a much wider world...

Then he opens his mouth, rants about mages for a bit, and I remember again why it was so very satisfying to shove Celebrant through his brain during my first run-through. Not even Gideon Emery's fantastic voice can distract from the fact that Fenris is a racist #$*hole.

Sweetness, have you never played awakening? Awakening Anders is a snarky, templar-hating, douchebag. Seriously. Go actually listen to his conversations and his banters. Just because they're delivered in the veil of humor doesn't make him any less of an ****. A templar-hating one. Because he is. If you dismiss him durring his mage-freedom rant he does not approve. If he hates you, his responses to the warden are out right nasty.  Awakening Anders is an ****. He's no less templar-hating then he is in DA2. The only difference between the two mediums, is that later-on, in act 3, he's no longer cracking jokes. Because he can't. Because its a serious situation and not funny anymore.

Not to mention the fact that Justice has zero sense of humor.


I don't get why people hate Anders for not being Anders when he's just as much Anders as he ever was. He's just as much the snarky, templar-hating douchebag in DA2, especially in act 1, that he was in Awakening. The only, and I repeat only, difference is that in Awakening he's a selfish snarky, templar-hating douchebag, and in DA2 he's lacking in the selfish department because of Justice.

Bah. I'm not really sure how any one can hate any of the DA2 cast. They're all wonderfully written, even Sebastian (who I'm not particularly fond of as a "personality", but I don't dislike the character).




I.. am not even sure I want to touch the comments about Fenris, because I'm not even remotely sure how you came up with Fenris being rasist when he's not Anti-Efl and not Anti-Human and not Anti-Dwarf. His hatred of magic is down-right reasonable. That doesn't mean your Hawke has to agree with him,and the vast majority if mine never do, but he's not wrong. And unless you're carting Merrill and/or Anders around he actually doesn't **** about mages that often. Because Anders is an abomination, and Merrill is a blood mage.. which are like the two most big bad no-no end of the world mage badness things.


Its to early, I need coffee.

Thank you for saying so well, what I have also tried to say about Anders! Spot-on!

[Rawgrim]

Merrill - Looks like a 12 year old girl. Creepy to romance her. Forced into being my friend too.
Varic - Because of the hail of arrows ability. Firing 100 arrows straight up, with one shot, and then they magically turn around and drop a few seconds later. Miraculously missing others who happen to be his friend. Dwarves can`t do magic after all. Makes no sense. Also forced into being my friend, by the game itself.

Fenris - Looks like something dragged out of an anime movie and copied + pasted into the DA universe. Reminds me of a soul calibur character actually. Oversized sword that seemingly weighs nothing more than the slippers he is wearing. Immersion breaker. Also forced on me.

Anders - Bothersome. Forced on me. Killed in Awakening (I think it was him that got killed in my playthrough) and is still alive. On the plus side, he is the only companion i can actually chose to kill in DA2 if I wish. The rest hangs around no matter what I do to them.

Carver + Bethany - Had loads of potential. Too bad no matter what i do, they get taken away from me (like mommy Hawke).

Sebastian - Same as Varric mostly.

Aveline. Very forced into the game since she is the only tank. The game doesn`t let me equip shields and swords to anyone except her. Other than that she was arguably the best character in the game.

Isabela - Pirates using an unlimited amont of smokebombs, and wearing a tiny shirt and a bra while fighting dragons messes up the immersion. Still; great character.

[Knight of Dane]

Rawgrim wrote...

Merrill - Looks like a 12 year old girl. Creepy to romance her. Forced into being my friend too.
Varic - Because of the hail of arrows ability. Firing 100 arrows straight up, with one shot, and then they magically turn around and drop a few seconds later. Miraculously missing others who happen to be his friend. Dwarves can`t do magic after all. Makes no sense. Also forced into being my friend, by the game itself.

Fenris - Looks like something dragged out of an anime movie and copied + pasted into the DA universe. Reminds me of a soul calibur character actually. Oversized sword that seemingly weighs nothing more than the slippers he is wearing. Immersion breaker. Also forced on me.

Anders - Bothersome. Forced on me. Killed in Awakening (I think it was him that got killed in my playthrough) and is still alive. On the plus side, he is the only companion i can actually chose to kill in DA2 if I wish. The rest hangs around no matter what I do to them.

Carver + Bethany - Had loads of potential. Too bad no matter what i do, they get taken away from me (like mommy Hawke).

Sebastian - Same as Varric mostly.

Aveline. Very forced into the game since she is the only tank. The game doesn`t let me equip shields and swords to anyone except her. Other than that she was arguably the best character in the game.

Isabela - Pirates using an unlimited amont of smokebombs, and wearing a tiny shirt and a bra while fighting dragons messes up the immersion. Still; great character.

So you hate Varric and Sebastian because of gameplay? Do you hate Hawke too then?
Merrill is a recuired character to progress beyond act 1, but she isn't forced on you beyond that, you can ignore her almost completely except for the end.
Fenris even less so, i can understand disliking a design, i don't think it's so bad with him, but i can see what you mean, still, he's optional. Don't like him, don't pibk him up.

[Rawgrim]

They still show up at the end, even if i have ignored them completely for 10 years (make that 7).
Hate is too strong a word though. Disliking, would be a more fitting one.

[phaonica]

I don't get why people hate Anders for not being Anders when he's just as much Anders as he ever was. ... The only, and I repeat only, difference is that in Awakening he's a selfish snarky, templar-hating douchebag, and in DA2 he's lacking in the selfish department because of Justice.

Even if the only change is from selfish to selfless, that's a significantly stark change, to me enough that he is almost like a different person.

[Porenferser]

Anders, because his once sympathetic character was raped to no end.

Merrill, because she is as dumb and careless as no other person could ever be.

Isabela, because she is a selfish, lying ****.

Orsino, because he is a bloody pig and a hypocrite.
(Yeah, no companion, still)

Modifié par Porenferser, 29 septembre 2011 - 09:47 .

[Knight of Dane]

Porenferser wrote...
Merrill, because she is as dumb and careless as no other person could ever be.

 Lol

Rawgrim wrote...

They still show up at the end, even if i have ignored them completely for 10 years (make that 7).
Hate is too strong a word though. Disliking, would be a more fitting one.

Fenris and Isabela don't, if you don't recruit them or give them away. And i think you can ignore Sebastians quest altogether and never meet him.

[Porenferser]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Porenferser wrote...
Merrill, because she is as dumb and careless as no other person could ever be.

 Lol

Jup, and if you want to know more details, I have never hated a virtual person as much as her:whistle:

[Knight of Dane]

Porenferser wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Porenferser wrote...
Merrill, because she is as dumb and careless as no other person could ever be.

 Lol

Jup, and if you want to know more details, I have never hated a virtual person as much as her:whistle:

Well, i don't really care that you dislike her, that's your bizz, but i laugh at your reasons since she's the opposite at almost every turn.

[Celtic Latino]

Anders- I absolutely loved Awakening Anders, but once he changed writers (thanks to the writer for ruining him) and story plot he became terrible. Every single banter he has involves him whining about mages being persecuted. Heck, I even did a romance playthrough with him and he continues to whine when Hawke's having a flirtatious conversation with him! What gives? Plus the whole stunt he did with the Chantry made me lose all respect for him whatsoever. Even my mage-sympathetic playthroughs wind up killing him in the end. Sadly what once became a funny, brofist character became the standard male human Bioware whinebot. Nice job with making him suck...

The rest of the companions I liked. I found Aveline, Varric and Fenris especially well written, Isabela is cool (but seriously does she always have to leave...bad mechanics), Bethany and Carver are standard fillers, Sebastian's ok and Merrill...well at least she's interesting. And doesn't whine. Unlike Anders.

[GreenClover]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Well, i don't really care that you dislike her, that's your bizz, but i laugh at your reasons since she's the opposite at almost every turn.

Hah, but I think she is quite as he described her, and your opinion is not stronger than mine, I believe (mine isn't stronger than yours either, surely). It's not about what she is, it is about the way we see her, and there can't be only one proper way. 

[Cosmochyck]

Celtic Latino wrote...

Anders- I absolutely loved Awakening Anders, but once he changed writers (thanks to the writer for ruining him) and story plot he became terrible. Every single banter he has involves him whining about mages being persecuted. Heck, I even did a romance playthrough with him and he continues to whine when Hawke's having a flirtatious conversation with him! What gives? Plus the whole stunt he did with the Chantry made me lose all respect for him whatsoever. Even my mage-sympathetic playthroughs wind up killing him in the end. Sadly what once became a funny, brofist character became the standard male human Bioware whinebot. Nice job with making him suck...

The rest of the companions I liked. I found Aveline, Varric and Fenris especially well written, Isabela is cool (but seriously does she always have to leave...bad mechanics), Bethany and Carver are standard fillers, Sebastian's ok and Merrill...well at least she's interesting. And doesn't whine. Unlike Anders.

My exact thoughts. 
Anders was great in Awakening, but I don't like how Justice changed him.  The whining became too much. 

I agree about Aveline, Varric and Fenris being well written.  Lots of emotion and depth (as well as growth) in those characters.

Sebastian I could live without, but not for any real reason other than I find his fighting skills lacking.
Merrill was the same.  I hardly take her anywhere. 

I would have liked Carver to stick around, but apparently BW wants my entire family dead

[Carmen_Willow]

phaonica wrote...

I don't get why people hate Anders for not being Anders when he's just as much Anders as he ever was. ... The only, and I repeat only, difference is that in Awakening he's a selfish snarky, templar-hating douchebag, and in DA2 he's lacking in the selfish department because of Justice.

Even if the only change is from selfish to selfless, that's a significantly stark change, to me enough that he is almost like a different person.

See, this is the one thing I agree with Sebastian about! Anders is a very selfish man. And he's selfish in DA 2.  You romance him and he still uses you and lies to you to get what he wants. He slept with you, lived in your house, ate your food, petted your dog and he still lies to you and uses you.  He is selfish in the worst way, still using his charm with women to get what he wants. Selfish man. That's why I don't romance him, ever. (edited to add content)

Modifié par Carmen_Willow, 30 septembre 2011 - 03:11 .

[GreenClover]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

You romance him and he still uses you and lies to you to get what he wants.

That fact that he uses you not for himself but for the greater good (as he believes) makes it difficult for me to call him selfish.
Besides, he warnes Hawke more than once that romancing him is a bad idea 

[Knight of Dane]

GreenClover wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Well, i don't really care that you dislike her, that's your bizz, but i laugh at your reasons since she's the opposite at almost every turn.

Hah, but I think she is quite as he described her, and your opinion is not stronger than mine, I believe (mine isn't stronger than yours either, surely). It's not about what she is, it is about the way we see her, and there can't be only one proper way. 

It is actually a question of facts and not opinion.
You can like her all you want or not, and for different reasons but, "Merrill, because she is as dumb and careless as no other person could ever be." Is not one of them.

She is very intelligent and manages to make old magic almost working without any real references, she pratically builds it from scratch. Something I'd bet any other from the party couldn't, even if they wanted to.

And careless is not fitting at all. You can mean what you will about her blood magic, some people like it, some don't. Personally i'm not sure i care that much. But she is not careless. She doesn't think that the mirror is entirely safe, she moves to Kirkwall so her clan is safe. Careless? No. Later she wants to finish it with the Arulin'holm and brings Hawke to help her, when she asks that of her, she doesn't knoiw what task the keeper will give her, it could have been Herbalist's Task 3 as well as the one we got. Anyway, she helps kill a creature that threatened her entire clan, careless? No. THen at last she wants to meet up with the demon, not in the fade, but by the statue where it is bound. Since she's unsure what happened to it she doesn't want to go alone and asks Hawke to come with her so she can be there in case Merrill herself should get possessed. This is not carelessnes either, it's a repercussion, again not carless but a very responsiblke request.

Again, you can mean what you like about her, i don't care. You may think she looks young, that her accent sucks ot that bringing the mirror to Kirkwall is cold, but the two traits the other user claimed to dislike her for is non-existent.
I assume they come from her naivete, which is the ever-old defining trait of Merrill, but he/she didn't want to use it as it can both sound positive and negative.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 30 septembre 2011 - 10:41 .

[GreenClover]

Still don't agree with you. It is a question of opinion, if we are talking about the same things, which I'm not sure now What is a question of fact is that we have a character named Merrill, who acts this way or another. Considering these actions smart or stupid, good or bad, is not a "question of fact". For example, I see her contact with demons as something really careless, Yeah, she may say that she has everyting under control, but if she gets tempted by a demon in Fade, she becomes something like "Oops, I never thought demons can be that tricky! I should consider this". From what I come to a conclusion that Merrill was not as good at being careful as she thought.
Speaking about her intellegence - yes, sure, she is intelligent when it comes to elven lore, and science, and magic, I don't argue that. But she is very ignorant, when it comes to casual things. Remember how exited she was about someone being pickpocketed at her doorway. Or how she asked Aveline about the best way of avoiding guards. Or how she spoils your lie in Isabela's quest in the Act 1. I don't even mention these silly things she can say if you take her to Arishok. That's what the one may call "dumb", though the word is too rude, if you ask me. Someone else may find her behaviour funny and cute. I find it stupid and annoying. 

Modifié par GreenClover, 30 septembre 2011 - 02:34 .

[Carmen_Willow]

GreenClover wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

You romance him and he still uses you and lies to you to get what he wants.

That fact that he uses you not for himself but for the greater good (as he believes) makes it difficult for me to call him selfish.
Besides, he warnes Hawke more than once that romancing him is a bad idea 

Yet another clever manipulation to get me to love him even more.  How sweet of him to warn me. He couldn't possibly hurt me now, after all, he warned me he was dangerous. The man surely knows the way to a woman's heart (and her bed). 

His "greater good" is still his goal.  He has wanted freedom for himself since he was taken from him mum. The fact that he must pull the rest of the mages along with him is simply a collateral benefit to achieving his desire.  Look, I'm not arguing that he may help to set mages free.  I just argue that he's  a selfish man.  And that wouldn't even bother me, because fighting for your own values is a good thing.  I just hate the fact that he uses me and manipulates me into doing what he wants.  He's a player!

[Wulfram]

One thing which bothers me about Anders is that he clearly can set up the bomb without Hawke's help. So his manipulations to gain help seem like nothing more than an attempt to force Hawke's hand by implicating them in the crime.

[berelinde]

Carmen_Willow wrote...
 I just argue that he's  a selfish man.  And that wouldn't even bother me, because fighting for your own values is a good thing.  I just hate the fact that he uses me and manipulates me into doing what he wants.  He's a player!

You mean, like getting Hawke to confess love to him, spending the night, and then abandoning Hawke in the morning with "I just wanted to be happy for a while" on his lips? That's what players do, isn't it?

Yeah, I know, personal issues. Everbody's got 'em. It comes down to whether you like the character enough to forgive their sins. You don't like a character? Fine. Everybody has his or her own preferences. Just don't claim the kettle is black but the pot isn't.

[Knight of Dane]

GreenClover wrote...

Still don't agree with you. It is a question of opinion, if we are talking about the same things, which I'm not sure now What is a question of fact is that we have a character named Merrill, who acts this way or another. Considering these actions smart or stupid, good or bad, is not a "question of fact". For example, I see her contact with demons as something really careless, Yeah, she may say that she has everyting under control, but if she gets tempted by a demon in Fade, she becomes something like "Oops, I never thought demons can be that tricky! I should consider this". From what I come to a conclusion that Merrill was not as good at being careful as she thought.
Speaking about her intellegence - yes, sure, she is intelligent when it comes to elven lore, and science, and magic, I don't argue that. But she is very ignorant, when it comes to casual things. Remember how exited she was about someone being pickpocketed at her doorway. Or how she asked Aveline about the best way of avoiding guards. Or how she spoils your lie in Isabela's quest in the Act 1. I don't even mention these silly things she can say if you take her to Arishok. That's what the one may call "dumb", though the word is too rude, if you ask me. Someone else may find her behaviour funny and cute. I find it stupid and annoying. 

The only time a demon ever gets through to her is when Hawke is careless and brings her to the fade.

Inteligence is understanding, and you learn understanding by being taught something or experiencing it. Merrill has never worked with Guards, Arishok and thieves. And tricking someone to get into a warehouse is something she has never experienced the need for before.

You could perhaps say that her intelect is selective as it is only dalish customs she knows about. Merrill had never been to Kirkwall before and only interacted with one human before, Duncan, whom are very understanding of the Dalish culture.
It's sort of like a child. It's not necesarrily stupid because it doesn't know that fire is hot or that meat doesn't just come from the stores you have to tell them that.
That calling her stupid because she explores the place she has gone to, as she has to learn it from someone, start somewhere, before she can get to understand it.

[berelinde]

Knight of Dane wrote...
The only time a demon ever gets through to her is when Hawke is careless and brings her to the fade.

Hey, we're all a little blind when it comes to our favorites, but let's not get carried away. Hawke is not responsible for Merrill's behavior. Merrill is a grown woman and perfectly capable of making her own decisions. She didn't eat the candy because Hawke was foolish enough to bring her into a candy shop. She ate the candy because she has a sweet tooth.

[Knight of Dane]

berelinde wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...
The only time a demon ever gets through to her is when Hawke is careless and brings her to the fade.

Hey, we're all a little blind when it comes to our favorites, but let's not get carried away. Hawke is not responsible for Merrill's behavior. Merrill is a grown woman and perfectly capable of making her own decisions. She didn't eat the candy because Hawke was foolish enough to bring her into a candy shop. She ate the candy because she has a sweet tooth.

Of course, but Hawke knows she's naive.

[berelinde]

Knight of Dane wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...
The only time a demon ever gets through to her is when Hawke is careless and brings her to the fade.

Hey, we're all a little blind when it comes to our favorites, but let's not get carried away. Hawke is not responsible for Merrill's behavior. Merrill is a grown woman and perfectly capable of making her own decisions. She didn't eat the candy because Hawke was foolish enough to bring her into a candy shop. She ate the candy because she has a sweet tooth.

Of course, but Hawke knows she's naive.

Yeah, but Hawke has never been to the Fade before, either. He has no reason to suspect that there may be demons there dangling the promise of social acceptance where Merrill can reach it. Heck, Hawke can't lock her up every time she just might run into something dangerous. She'd never get out of her house!

Really, you can't blame any of the companions for betraying Hawke in the Fade, Merrill or any other. It would be different (and better) if the companion had the option of rejecting the offer if their friendship/rivalry was high enough, but it isn't. It's more a question of how the companion behaves once they're back in Kirkwall again. Do they say "Oops, my bad!" or do they say "It's your fault for taking me there in the first place!"? IIRC, Merrill accepts that it's her fault whether she's a friend or a rival, and I respect her for that.

[Knight of Dane]

berelinde wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...
The only time a demon ever gets through to her is when Hawke is careless and brings her to the fade.

Hey, we're all a little blind when it comes to our favorites, but let's not get carried away. Hawke is not responsible for Merrill's behavior. Merrill is a grown woman and perfectly capable of making her own decisions. She didn't eat the candy because Hawke was foolish enough to bring her into a candy shop. She ate the candy because she has a sweet tooth.

Of course, but Hawke knows she's naive.

Yeah, but Hawke has never been to the Fade before, either.
they say "Oops, my bad!" or do they say "It's your fault for taking me there in the first place!"?.

Depends on the Hawke

And: You're right, but they all seem very regretfull for ever going there too.