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[Jackalope]

Eudaemonium wrote...

PS: Thanks all for telling me who says the line. I confess to not clicking on NPCs as much as I should.

I missed it the first two playthrough, and I know I let him live in at least one of those.  My jaw dropped when I heard it on the third playthrough.

That being said...Karras is quite the jerk.  Is he that reliable of a source?  Or is he saying it just to be sadistic bully?

[Heidenreich]

Jackalope wrote...

Has nobody else ever seen Rose Red, or the Haunting of Hill House, or the House on Haunted Hill, or any of the other dozen movies where they're like "hey, let's take some unstable people and put them in a ghooooooost house!" Spoiler alert: IT USUALLY DOESN'T END WELL.

Well, if anyone in the Thedas had been more genre-saavy, they would have known not to trust Tim Curry in the first movie, for starters.

At the end of the day, Tim Curry is always a dead give away. He plays the seems-good-but-is-really-bad guy SO WELL.

[Meeszy Alexy]

Well, I can't stand Anders as he killed innocent people to start a war with the templars and also to prove that Meredith was obsessive and insane with power and mage-hatred. I can't justify and/or condone killing innocents, and that terrorism is never necessary. Kirkwall needed order instead of being a battleground for a war. (Which is why I sided with the Templars, as letting the mages win means that Kirkwall will not cool down and start over, meaning more innocent blood will be spilled in the crossfire.) I only like him on Rivalry, as it's the only way he can see that merging with Justice and starting this whole mage revolution is a bad idea.
I also just don't like how rude he was to Aveline, just because she was a) in a position of authority and was married to a templar. He doesn't think that she may be trying to make things better, nor that Wesley might've been a templar that looked after mages as opposed to terrorise them. (We don't know enough of him to say if Anders is right or not. I personally see Wesley having similar views to Cullen, just from the whole "APOSTATE D:<" business, aka fearing them, but not abusing his power like Karras or Alrik.)

[Arquen]

Even Hawke kills innocents. I find it hard to see Anders' actions as outright terrorism. He made a drastic action, and I don't see Elthina as innocent either.

Then again, my definition of "innocent" is rather jaded. I don't believe in the innocence of anyone. Personal and real world issues aside. I see what Anders did in the context of Thedas as quite justifiable. A Chantry. A Chantry in the city of chains where the Divine was turning her gaze, where Meredith was running the mages into desperation and allowing atrocities in the name of righteousness to occur and "the more they resisted, the tighter she squeezed." I think Anders exhausted all other options.

The Chantry explosion did not massacre tons of innocents. It was a strategic target aimed at an institution that propagated mage oppression and worse, atrocities against people it was supposed to help and protect.

At this stage I feel minor empathy for the people in the Chantry.. all.. what.. six of them or something? I feel empathy for Elthina, but very little. I feel more empathy for Anders because it was a last resort. He's been trying to change things since the merger with Justice. He's been trying to change things in Kirkwall since the beginning of the game. Years and Years of trying alternate routes.

Thedas is built on turmoil. It is built on war. NOTHING changes without some kind of upheaval ravaging the world first. Even Andraste's time was riddled with war, death, and violence. Thedas does not change peacefully. There simply was no other way. The point is.. one has to see that. One has to separate what they know in OUR world -- Earth, here, now. See it from the Thedas world, where this isn't simply an act of terrorism for attention, political gain, anything. It is a despeerate last resort of a mage and a man who cannot take it any longer, and partly because of Justice, partly because of who he is, he cannot watch the Chantry continue to support this, propagate this, and even use this Andrastian faith to hide behind and force mages into a broken system that leads to more atrocities than anything else.

The Divine is bonkers, and Leliana pretty much hints at that. The Seekers, too seem to be like "she told us to just.. you know.. come here and kill you all, but some of us are interested in the actual truth." Meredith and Elthina are a small piece of the puzzle. The Chantry in Kirkwall was the big piece. The "we aren't going to take this anymore, and this is what the Chantry has wrought -- Justice."

There is more than simple terrorism at work there, and killing innocent people was the last thing Anders wanted to do. He was ready to die for that sin. He felt more empathy for the people he killed than Meredith or Elthina felt for any of the mages.

Oh, Maker... I should not post when I'm tired after work. Rambling post about Anders is rambling.

[Wulfram]

Arquen wrote...

The Divine is bonkers, and Leliana pretty much hints at that.

There is no basis for thinking the Divine is bonkers.

edit: Also, it's clear from his murder/near murder of Ella, that Justice does not regard Circle Mages as innocents.

Modifié par Wulfram, 03 octobre 2011 - 02:59 .

[TastesLikeTNT]

Wulfram wrote...

Arquen wrote...

The Divine is bonkers, and Leliana pretty much hints at that.

There is no basis for thinking the Divine is bonkers.

edit: Also, it's clear from his murder/near murder of Ella, that Justice does not regard Circle Mages as innocents.

He attacked Ella because he was out of his mind with rage and thought she was in cahoots with the templars - not because she was a Circle Mage. Technically, she could count as an apostate.

[Jackalope]

Wulfram wrote...

edit: Also, it's clear from his murder/near murder of Ella, that Justice does not regard Circle Mages as innocents.

I almost smacked Anders when Merideth mentions what a good little mage Bethany is.  "Some dogs accept their collars better than others" or whatever.  Anders, when has insulting a member of Hawke's family ever turned out good?

That being said, I wanted to beat up the Knight-Commander as well for bringing it up, so I'm an equal-opportunity bruiser.

[Arquen]

Really? Not even that not so subtle hint that Leliana drops about her keeping her eye on Kirkwall and expecting something as catastrophic as to call an exalted March.

Not to mention Sebastian's rebuttal -- "a handful of apostates!" -- and she's like "Just get Elthina out of here..."

Then Cassandra being like "There are some of us who want the truth." When she was sent by the Divine and suddenly it seems her group has a separate role from what they were ordered to do. "You let him go?"

Let me put it this way.. it isn't fact, but it isn't baseless either. The Divine seems awfully paranoid about a group of apostates and Kirkwall for no real reason since Meredith was pretty much squeezing the mages to death anyways.

As for Ella and Justice -- "Get away from me DEMON!" -- "I AM NO DEMON!?" <--- Justice hates being called a Demon. Vengeance, probably hates it even more. Even in Awakenings Justice did not take kindly to being compared to a demon. In that scene he is all wrath and uncontrolled rage at Ser Alrik. Ella, at that point, had nothing to do with Anders. Anders practically rips himself up afterwards about it, and feels a crushing amount of guilt and pain over what he "almost" did. If he actually kills her.. he agonizes on it for the rest of his life. So, yeah -- have to call extenuating circumstances on that one.

[Rune-Chan]

Carver, does he really need an explanation? Okay, he is incredibly whiny, he makes Anders look dignified in comparison.

Aveline, sometimes. I like her "ethic", but dislike her "Godamnit Hawke, why don't you always do everything my way.", and she get's really stroppy if you do not.

Fenris, sometimes. I understand where he comes from, but that chip on his shoulder can be a little too much. On that quest where you free the elven girl and can offer her a place at your home, he goes an accuses me of slavery, when I was offering a damn job.

Anders, sometimes. He basically loves you if you agree with absolutely everything he says, but acts like you are Meredith if you dare to even question his behaviour/attitude. He reminds me of a spoilt kid who throws a tantrum if things don't go his way.

To be honest though, even the characters I dislike, I like. I don't mean that as a contradiction, I mean that I like hoe Bioware have made them, I dislike some of them, but in the same way you dislike a villain; you dislike them as a character, not the character themselves (if you understand what I mean by this).

[Wulfram]

Arquen wrote...

Really? Not even that not so subtle hint that Leliana drops about her keeping her eye on Kirkwall and expecting something as catastrophic as to call an exalted March.

Leliana never suggests that there might be an exalted march.

Not to mention Sebastian's rebuttal -- "a handful of apostates!" -- and she's like "Just get Elthina out of here..."

Yes, clearly her belief that the Grand Cleric is in danger in Kirkwall is unreasonable!

Then Cassandra being like "There are some of us who want the truth." When she was sent by the Divine and suddenly it seems her group has a separate role from what they were ordered to do. "You let him go?"

You think that Cassandra or Leliana are the ones who have broken away from the Divine?  Considering that both Leliana and the Seekers are both clearly established as personal servants of the Divine - and Leliana owes a great deal personally to the Divine - that seems unlikely.

My understanding is that the Templars have broken away from the Chantry and Divine to hunt the Mages, while the Seekers and Leliana are working to bring peace.

Let me put it this way.. it isn't fact, but it isn't baseless either. The Divine seems awfully paranoid about a group of apostates and Kirkwall for no real reason since Meredith was pretty much squeezing the mages to death anyways.

It doesn't seem to be based on anything other than the misinterpretation of some speculation by Elthina. 

The Divine has Meredith calling for Annullment, no doubt other reports claiming that Meredith herself is insane.  There are blood mages roaming the streets, and Templars murdering people in their homes. 

How is the Divine - correctly, as it turns out - being concerned that this could prove a dangerous flashpoint evidence of her being paranoid or bonkers?

As for Ella and Justice -- "Get away from me DEMON!" -- "I AM NO DEMON!?" <--- Justice hates being called a Demon. Vengeance, probably hates it even more. Even in Awakenings Justice did not take kindly to being compared to a demon. In that scene he is all wrath and uncontrolled rage at Ser Alrik. Ella, at that point, had nothing to do with Anders. Anders practically rips himself up afterwards about it, and feels a crushing amount of guilt and pain over what he "almost" did. If he actually kills her.. he agonizes on it for the rest of his life. So, yeah -- have to call extenuating circumstances on that one.

Being possessed by an insane spirit/demon does count as extenuating circumstances, but it applies to all his actions.  He's no less possessed when he decides to cause the destruction of the circle.

[Jackalope]

Machines Are Us wrote...
To be honest though, even the characters I dislike, I like. I don't mean that as a contradiction, I mean that I like hoe Bioware have made them, I dislike some of them, but in the same way you dislike a villain; you dislike them as a character, not the character themselves (if you understand what I mean by this).

Yeah...I think I know the feeling.  I enjoy hating them.  On my pro-Templar playthrough I loved calling Anders out on some things.  Maybe hate is too strong a word sometimes.

[Cobra's_back]

Arquen wrote...


There is more than simple terrorism at work there, and killing innocent people was the last thing Anders wanted to do. He was ready to die for that sin. He felt more empathy for the people he killed than Meredith or Elthina felt for any of the mages.

Oh, Maker... I should not post when I'm tired after work. Rambling post about Anders is rambling.

Your post does sound like you are tired. I still get your point.
If you kill him, you put him out of his misery. I kill him all the time. He had gone over the edge. I would gladly have suggested Prozac and a prison hospital but it didn’t exist. For me the next best thing is taking him out. Hopefully, they won’t bring him back. I’m looking forward to a more heroic adventure. I’m tired of crazy town.
 

[TastesLikeTNT]

Wulfram wrote...

Being possessed by an insane spirit/demon does count as extenuating circumstances, but it applies to all his actions.  He's no less possessed when he decides to cause the destruction of the circle.

Anders doesn't do what he does because he harbours any ill will against the mages of the Circle. As he says, he feels that the mages are already doomed and it would be better as an open conflict where the mages get the chance to fight fairly - which is what he wants when he removes the chance of compromise between mages and templars because the compromise doesn't work. You are welcome to disagree with him, but he is genuinely trying to help. If he didn't, he would not stay behind and defend them against you should you let him go and then side with the templars.

[Wulfram]

TastesLikeTNT wrote...

Anders doesn't do what he does because he harbours any ill will against the mages of the Circle. As he says, he feels that the mages are already doomed and it would be better as an open conflict where the mages get the chance to fight fairly - which is what he wants when he removes the chance of compromise between mages and templars because the compromise doesn't work. You are welcome to disagree with him, but he is genuinely trying to help. If he didn't, he would not stay behind and defend them against you should you let him go and then side with the templars.

He clearly does hold ill will towards Orsino.  And Orsino is probably more anti-Templar than the average mage.

It's true that he's less hostile towards the circle mages when he's forced them to do what he wants them to do - die for their freedom rather than accept slavery.

Anders wants to die.  Standing in the way of Hawke is a good way to do that.  And killing Templars is a bonus.

[TastesLikeTNT]

Wulfram wrote...



He clearly does hold ill will towards Orsino.  And Orsino is probably more anti-Templar than the average mage.

That probably has to do with the fact that Orsino is a leader of mages who is working with Meredith to manage the Circle rather than leading the mages to freedom. Anders cannot accept anything less than the latter, as the endgame shows.

It's true that he's less hostile towards the circle mages when he's forced them to do what he wants them to do - die for their freedom rather than accept slavery.

Anders wants to die.  Standing in the way of Hawke is a good way to do that.  And killing Templars is a bonus.

He says; "I set the fire. I can't just walk away." If you allow him to live, he wants to fight for the mages.

Modifié par TastesLikeTNT, 03 octobre 2011 - 05:07 .

[Ryzaki]

While Hawke *can* kill innocents he/she doesn't have to.  Like Dragon Age I have "self defense only" runs. 

The game doesn't force Hawke to kill anyone that's doesn't attack him/her first. All mercy kills (Keeper, Bertrand, Wesley) are done by party members.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 octobre 2011 - 05:33 .

[berelinde]

Ryzaki wrote...
All mercy kills (Keeper, Bertrand, Wesley) are done by party members.  

Is it just me, or did anyone else hear Alan Rickman say "No more merciful beheadings!"

If Hawke is standing there watching Wesley die because he doesn't want that death on his conscience, I wouldn't exactly call that virtuous. Of course, if Hawke refrains from making Aveline's choice for her because it is her right to decide what to do, it's a different story. Also, Bartrand doesn't have to die at all, if Hawke brings Anders along. Just saying.

[Wulfram]

TastesLikeTNT wrote...

That probably has to do with the fact that Orsino is a leader of mages who is working with Meredith to manage the Circle rather than leading the mages to freedom. Anders cannot accept anything less than the latter, as the endgame shows.

Yes.  Exactly.  He cannot accept mages prefering to live than die fighting for their freedom.  So he forces them to die fighting for their freedom.  Because to the embodiment of a principal, the principal is more important than the people.

He says; "I set the fire. I can't just walk away." If you allow him to live, he wants to fight for the mages.

He wants to fight against the injustice inflicted on them.  He wants to die doing this.  But he doesn't really care about the mages, as he shows by deliberately causing their deaths.

[Ryzaki]

berelinde wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
All mercy kills (Keeper, Bertrand, Wesley) are done by party members.  

Is it just me, or did anyone else hear Alan Rickman say "No more merciful beheadings!"

If Hawke is standing there watching Wesley die because he doesn't want that death on his conscience, I wouldn't exactly call that virtuous. Of course, if Hawke refrains from making Aveline's choice for her because it is her right to decide what to do, it's a different story. Also, Bartrand doesn't have to die at all, if Hawke brings Anders along. Just saying.

Uh
...and where did I say Bartrand always had to die? 

As for virtuous I never said that either. Just that Hawke could go a game without kiling any innocents therefore the whole "Hawke killed innocents too." doesn't really apply. Kind of hard to play Hawke as virtous anyways given that he/she's a merc/thief. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 octobre 2011 - 06:33 .

[TastesLikeTNT]

Wulfram wrote...

He wants to fight against the injustice inflicted on them.  He wants to die doing this.  But he doesn't really care about the mages, as he shows by deliberately causing their deaths.

That's a possible interpretation, yes. I was just arguing against the notion that he does what he does out of especial malice against the mages or that he thinks of them as guilty. Because I don't think that is true. If that wasn't what you meant, I apologize.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I don't think Anders deliberately causes the mages' deaths... I think he trusts Hawke to save them, to stop the Annulment: bear in mind that Anders basically thinks Hawke is the one bright light in the world, a great person capable of anything, the only real hope for the future. If Meredith goes on to deliberately cause the Mages' deaths, that's on Meredith. If Hawke then goes on to deliberately cause the mages' deaths, that's on HAWKE. And on the game design that doesn't actually let you save anyone ever at all from anything under any circumstances.

I think you'd have to be deliberately looking for a reason to hate Anders and also willfully obtuse to construe anything Anders says as him wanting all the mages to die. But that's just me.

You could, however, hate him for expecting someone as obviously incompetent as Hawke to sucessfully save anyone. But I tend to blame the game for that, rather than Hawke themselves.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 03 octobre 2011 - 08:27 .

[Wulfram]

TastesLikeTNT wrote...

That's a possible interpretation, yes. I was just arguing against the notion that he does what he does out of especial malice against the mages or that he thinks of them as guilty. Because I don't think that is true. If that wasn't what you meant, I apologize.

I think Justice/Vengeance at least, if not Anders, does think of them as guilty, at least to an extent.  Perhaps not enough to deliberately cause their deaths, but enough that their deaths aren't seen as a negative.

@CGC: not every Hawke FriendMances Anders.  Hawke may well just be some guy Anders didn't really get along with who told him to ****** off 3 years ago.

[Heidenreich]

Wulfram wrote...

TastesLikeTNT wrote...

That probably has to do with the fact that Orsino is a leader of mages who is working with Meredith to manage the Circle rather than leading the mages to freedom. Anders cannot accept anything less than the latter, as the endgame shows.

Yes.  Exactly.  He cannot accept mages prefering to live than die fighting for their freedom.  So he forces them to die fighting for their freedom.  Because to the embodiment of a principal, the principal is more important than the people.

He says; "I set the fire. I can't just walk away." If you allow him to live, he wants to fight for the mages.

He wants to fight against the injustice inflicted on them.  He wants to die doing this.  But he doesn't really care about the mages, as he shows by deliberately causing their deaths.

Bah, at the end of this discussion I expect to see "I don't care, I hate him. He's bad."


Anders does not cause the death of mages. Mages in Kirkwall are dieing with out the help of Anders for SEVEN YEARS prior to the Chantry incident. When we get to Kirkwall its already happening. Even the folks in Lowtown make remark that people's fairly innocent already harrowed mage reletives are being made tranquil for absolutely no reason.  We see this as the game progresses, with the mages in the Gallows over time dwindling until the only people in the Gallows Court yard at all are Tranquil, Templars, and Non-mages.

In fact, by act three the only not-tranquil mage in all of the Gallows is Sol.

Ser Alrik makes mages tranquil and then abuses them (several banters in the Gallows Court Yard durring act 2 confirms this. Bethany does as well if she's been sent to the circle.).

Ser Karras is violent to the point of over-the-topness towards mages. We find this out when we meet Grace and the Starkhaven mages (mind you most of them have it comming). We hear more about him and his abuses as the game progresses through Alain in the Gallows.

Even Cullen is very anti-mage, though he's much less violent  and abuse-ee about his opinions because he's SEEN what happens to mages when you push them to far.

We all know how Meredith feels, and she's in charge of the whole show.



When we get to Lowtown, before the chantry explodes and before Anders starts speaking, we find out that the mages Are already going to die. Let me retype that. When we get to Lowtown, via the cut scene when we leave the Gallows, we learn that the mages are ALREADY GOING TO DIE. Meredith has decided that she is not going to wait for word from The Divine.

She's ordered a "search" of the tower, to which Orsino is against, because he knows, and its heavily implied, that the act is a witch hunt. She's attempting to search for a reason to start killing the mages. They get into an argument. Orsino decides he'll just go ask the Grand Cleric to put a stop to it, seeing as how Meredith is refusing to listen to reason. Because she's looking for a reason to call an Annulment with out permission.

Orsino knows that she'll find nothing, but can't permit her to go on this witch hunt, because its just one more step along the path of Calling an Annulment with out permission.



Knowing all this, at the opening of the Chantry sequence, Anders' actions are almost inconcequencial. Add to the fact that Meredith then uses it as her excuse, which even if it hadn't happened she would have found another. Because, The Mages were already going to die.

By blowing up the chantry, Anders is trying to prove the point of "There is no compromise." Because there never was. The Chantry was never going to stop her. Elthina was never going to step in, and even if she did step in, eventually Meredith would have won out -- or some one else like her would. Because the system is broken. Mages are prisoners because they're mages. They're not prisoners because they've done something wrong.

The Circle wasn't intended to be a prison. It was built so Mages could willingly learn to use their magic in saftey and in peace, outside the constraints of normal every day life. Because every day life wouldn't welcome them, and law forbade them ever to even use their magic outside of keeping the eternal flame lit. Yet fast forward 500 years and a prison is exactly what it's become. A prison, run by Templars, who hate the people they're suposed to be protecting. 

That would be like if we filled Elementary schools full of violent child abusers and pedofiles.Then, wonder why all the kids who went to those schools ended up as murdering, wife beating, child molesting prostitutes. Except that not all the kids grow up that way dispite everything, and then you still lable them as such and have them Executed or Labotomised simply because they also attended those schools.


... Now -I'm- ranting. <_<

Modifié par Heidenreich, 03 octobre 2011 - 09:11 .

[TastesLikeTNT]

Wulfram wrote...

I think Justice/Vengeance at least, if not Anders, does think of them as guilty, at least to an extent.  Perhaps not enough to deliberately cause their deaths, but enough that their deaths aren't seen as a negative.

Where do you get that from? We never even see Justice apart from the moments where he's flipping his respective ****, and then he's usually tearing apart templars or anyone he thinks might be a templar. I've never seen any indication that he thinks of them as guilty in any sense of the word - in the rivalry path, I recall him accusing Hawke of giving in to sloth and standing idly by while mages are abducted and tortured. Anders feels guilty enough about the death he causes that he thinks he should die to give his victims justice. You might see what he does as deliberately causing their deaths, but Janders clearly does not - he thinks they're already so doomed that forcing a war gives them the only chance they'll get to fight back.

[Wulfram]

Heidenreich wrote...

Bah, at the end of this discussion I expect to see "I don't care, I hate him. He's bad."

I don't hate him.  I think he, at the end, reveals himself as truly an Abomination, the victim of possession.  As is Justice, in a way.

Anders does not cause the death of mages.

Yes he does.  He acts in the full knowledge that his actions will cause their deaths, in the belief that their deaths are if not desirable then at least beneficial to his cause and preferable to them living in slavery, preferable to them having the choice to live in slavery.

The mages may have died anyway, they may not have.  He deliberately removed that chance, because there was no compromise acceptable to him.  His fear is not that Meredith will kill them, but that Elthina will forge a "compromise" that will make their slavery tolerable and sustainable again. 

So he takes action which will force them to be martyrs for his cause.  Sacrifices them to the principal of freedom and justice, rather than letting them choose.