613 réponses à ce sujet

[Knight of Dane]

This thread grows by the lightyear each time i come and go.

Just give 'em Wulfram, i agree with you 100% And you write it better than i could.

[Heidenreich]

You missed the part where I said that we learn that even if Anders were never to blow up the chantry at all, Meredith was still going to Annul the circle. She's sent for it, she's doing unsolicited searches of the Circle, and she's refusing to let Orsino speak to the Grand Cleric to put a stop to these said unsolicited searches.

Even if the order never comes, or comes back with a resounding "No", eventually Meredith will call for an Annulment.

"I've removed the chance for compromise, because There is no Compromise."

This statement doesn't mean "It's not okay with me, rable rable froth." It means "Meredith will never allow for compromise. Elthina will never make a decision. Eventually the Divine will call an Exalted March."

His actions aren't forcing people to his cause. His actions just pushed the issue faster then it would have come on its own. They were going to die anyways.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 03 octobre 2011 - 10:07 .

[Sylvanpyxie]

Guess it depends what i'm comparing them to.. Compared to characters from Planescape: Torment or Neverwinter Nights 2 they all feel a tad meh. In comparison to each other though? I suppose...

Isabela i'm not completely enthralled with, but i think that's mostly because i've seen the archetype so often, in so many games. It kind of leaves her feeling a bit cliché... Felt like Bioware recycled her personality and just did touch ups.. Bothers me.

Sebastian i wasn't overly thrilled with either, but i suppose that's mostly because he felt restricted, as a DLC companion, in comparison to the others.... If he'd had a fully formed romance arc, i'm sure i would've loved both Friendly and Rivalry paths. But i find in most Bioware games it's difficult to get to know a character unless there's a fully fledged romance to run through.

Overall, i don't hate or dislike any of them. But those two felt a little unrefined.

Edit: I've probably swooped in during an intense discussion, heated debate, relating to various characters, i tend to have the misfortune of doing that a lot, but yeah, this is my opinion on two characters that weren't handled badly, but i think could've been handled better.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 03 octobre 2011 - 10:15 .

[Jackalope]

Oh, swooping isn't always bad...right?

[Wulfram]

Heidenreich wrote...

You missed the part where I said that we learn that even if Anders were never to blow up the chantry at all, Meredith was still going to Annul the circle. She's sent for it, she's doing unsolicited searches of the Circle, and she's refusing to let Orsino speak to the Grand Cleric to put a stop to these said unsolicited searches.

Even if the order never comes, or comes back with a resounding "No", eventually Meredith will call for an Annulment.

I didn't miss it.  As I said, it is a possibility, no more.

"I've removed the chance for compromise, because There is no Compromise."

This statement doesn't mean "It's not okay with me, rable rable froth." It means "Meredith will never allow for compromise. Elthina will never make a decision. Eventually the Divine will call an Exalted March."

It means "I don't consider the continuation of the existing system a compromise, so I'm going to make sure it doesn't happen

His actions aren't forcing people to his cause. His actions just pushed the issue faster then it would have come on its own. They were going to die anyways.

If so, his murder and blackening of the name of the Mage cause becomes a particularly idiotic and self serving tantrum, because it loses all it's point.  Meredith Annulling the Circle unprovoked serves the Mage's cause far better than Meredith annulling the circle because those crazy mages decided to murder the beloved Grand Cleric of Kirkwall and countless others.

And if this fantasy Exalted March against Kirkwall which people have dreamed up actually happened, that would be the mage's dream.  Nothing could be calculated to better turn Thedas' sympathy from the Chantry and Templars to the Mages.

@SylvanPyxie - if you mention NWN2, then I think one great thing that can be said of all the characters in DA2 is that they're not Grobnar.

[TastesLikeTNT]

Nevermind. It's too late.

Look! Bunnies!

Modifié par TastesLikeTNT, 03 octobre 2011 - 11:38 .

[Heidenreich]

Wulfram wrote...

"I've removed the chance for compromise, because There is no Compromise."

This statement doesn't mean "It's not okay with me, rable rable froth." It means "Meredith will never allow for compromise. Elthina will never make a decision. Eventually the Divine will call an Exalted March."

It means "I don't consider the continuation of the existing system a compromise, so I'm going to make sure it doesn't happen

Except the compromise is "Stay in the circle and continue to be abused, raped, beat, and like it.. or die." Which is no compromise at all. It's not a statment of Anders disliking the system. It's a statement that, the only compromise isn't a compromise, its imprisonment unwillingly

His actions aren't forcing people to his cause. His actions just pushed the issue faster then it would have come on its own. They were going to die anyways.

If so, his murder and blackening of the name of the Mage cause becomes a particularly idiotic and self serving tantrum, because it loses all it's point.  Meredith Annulling the Circle unprovoked serves the Mage's cause far better than Meredith annulling the circle because those crazy mages decided to murder the beloved Grand Cleric of Kirkwall and countless others.

Except that it doesn't. We know for a fact that at least 40 people witness Anders admitting he did it, including a chantry brother who's also a prince, The Captain of the City Guard, Varric, half a dozen Templars, First Enchanter Orsino, and Hawke. By her then calling Annulment of the Circle based upon the actions of a man who's admitting to being the person who carried out the act, by themselves...

Do you see where I'm going with this? The rest of the world has no idea who blew up the chantry, and 40 some odd people can say "Yea some ****ing nutjob did it. Meredith killed him for it." and then there would never be a need to Annul the circle.

What happens instead, is Meredith once again blames ALL MAGES for the act. Which, obviously not all mages did. Anders is standing right there saying he did it, in front of all of Lowtown.

So his "murder" as you call it does not "blackin the name of the mage cause" and wasn't "idiotic and self serving tantrum", because it pushed to the forfront the notion that Meredith is looking for any excuse to Annull the Circle.

One mage blowing up the chantry, regardless of the fact that he has no association to the Circle... being that he's a warden and technically she's not allowed to put him there... isn't the fault of the whole circle. Her calling to Annul the Circle only implies that she was going to do it any way, if not just later on down the road when she could "find" evidence enough to do so.

If anything, it makes Meredith look more like the Mage-hating-loony that she is, then it ever does "blacken the name of the Mage circle."

And if this fantasy Exalted March against Kirkwall which people have dreamed up actually happened, that would be the mage's dream.  Nothing could be calculated to better turn Thedas' sympathy from the Chantry and Templars to the Mages.

1. Its not fantacy, its written in the game, thus it is canon. Happening or not, both The Grand Cleric, and Leliana imply that it is real, and will eventually be happening.

2. You completely overestimate the people of Thedas then. Their whole lives are dictated by the Chantry. If tomarrow the Divine held an Exalted March against City Elves, 99% of all Human Thedas would be like "KILL ALL ELVES, THE MAKER SAYS SO!". And even if they didn't, they wouldn't exactly be protesting it in the streets either.



PS: I'm totally not as hostile as my words seem to come off as I swear. I'm just... enjoying this debate a little more then I should be

[berelinde]

Wulfram wrote...
@SylvanPyxie - if you mention NWN2, then I think one great thing that can be said of all the characters in DA2 is that they're not Grobnar.

Actually, I adored Grobnar. He was just such a ridiculous little buffoon, it was impossible for me not to like him. And he's the party punching bag, which just about guarantees sympathy points from me. But I digress. This isn't the NWN2 forum, after all.

@SylvanPyxie: Heated debates are quite the norm around here, so it's really impossible not to interrupt one. Nevertheless, you are on-topic, which a lot of the other posts here are not... including a lot of mine, and in this very thread, too.

It's my personal belief that every thread on the forum will eventually turn into an "I hate Anders" thread. Sad, but true. Especially when a lot of us actually don't.

I don't know if I've actually stated which character I dislike. If not, I'll do so now.

Bethany is the only character I actually dislike. It isn't a seething hatred. If it were, then I would consider her a success rather than the bland nothing she seems to me. She's too agreeable, too bland, too passive. A bit insipid, really. I know, a lot of people would call this blasphemy, but she really could do with a lot more personality.

[Carmen_Willow]

There is one thing I would like to say about the Chantry explosion that some people do not realize. Look at the size of the explosion in the game. An explosion that size has something known as a concussion blast! An explosion of c4 in a cell phone can cause a concussion blast that would wipe out everyone in a small lobby. A bomb the size of a car trunk can emit enough of a concussion blast to kill you half a block away. The concussion blast from the Chantry explosion would be a heck of a lot bigger than that! So the idea that only six people died in that blast is foolish. BTW a concussion blast turns your insides to jelly, basically.

Second point: Even if only six people died in that blast--that's six people who didn't do diddly squat to Anders personally.(Well Elthina didn't do what he wanted her to do, so I guess it's only 5 that didn't do diddly) Only six? At what number do we begin to feel outrage? 10? 100? 1000? 10,000? How many people dying does it take before you can no longer excuse what he did?

[berelinde]

How many mages is it alright to torture, rape or murder without fear of repercussion before it warrants change?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

There is one thing I would like to say about the Chantry explosion that some people do not realize. Look at the size of the explosion in the game. An explosion that size has something known as a concussion blast! An explosion of c4 in a cell phone can cause a concussion blast that would wipe out everyone in a small lobby. A bomb the size of a car trunk can emit enough of a concussion blast to kill you half a block away. The concussion blast from the Chantry explosion would be a heck of a lot bigger than that! So the idea that only six people died in that blast is foolish. BTW a concussion blast turns your insides to jelly, basically.

Second point: Even if only six people died in that blast--that's six people who didn't do diddly squat to Anders personally.(Well Elthina didn't do what he wanted her to do, so I guess it's only 5 that didn't do diddly) Only six? At what number do we begin to feel outrage? 10? 100? 1000? 10,000? How many people dying does it take before you can no longer excuse what he did?

At the end of Inglorious Basterds, a woman blows up an entire theater full of people. Like several thousand people die... the thing is, they're all members of an evil regime that murdered a huge amount of people and created internment camps... or they're sympathizers with that regime. So when the theater goes up in flames, you cheer.

Now, I'm not saying the particular regime here is AS evil as the one in Inglorious Basterds... that's just the only evil historical regime we ever actually tell stories about, so it's the one I have an example of. Anders is killing only people who explicitly sympathize and support the regime that is responsible for his internment, for threatening to wrongfully execute him years ago, and for illegally lobotomizing his friend.

If there is someone who has stated publically that he will murder you if he ever gets the chance, and you know for a fact that he would do so and get away with it, and the government would in fact, explicitly approve of your murder, and you kill that guy who has threatened to murder you... then, by your reasoning, you are an evil unforgivable bastard who murdered a completly innocent person who never did you any harm.

The Chantry is an authoritarian regime that supports apartheid and declares that it has a legal right to committ mass murder at any point that it so desires. It's fine if you hate Anders for blowing the Chantry up, as long as you similarly hate Han Solo for blowing up the Death Star, and killing all the Empire Sympathizers who had never, personally done anything to Han Solo before in his life. He murdered all those completely innocent Empire officials. At what point do we declare Han Solo an unforgivable war criminal? Ten Empire Officers? A hundred? Those empire captains and admirals have FAMILIES, DAMMIT!

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 04 octobre 2011 - 01:37 .

[Knight of Dane]

berelinde wrote...

How many mages is it alright to torture, rape or murder without fear of repercussion before it warrants change?

None, but Anders did not have to invoke it like that.

[ipgd]

Knight of Dane wrote...

berelinde wrote...

How many mages is it alright to torture, rape or murder without fear of repercussion before it warrants change?

None, but Anders did not have to invoke it like that.

except that he did

Modifié par ipgd, 04 octobre 2011 - 01:43 .

[DrFumb1ezX]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

There is one thing I would like to say about the Chantry explosion that some people do not realize. Look at the size of the explosion in the game. An explosion that size has something known as a concussion blast! An explosion of c4 in a cell phone can cause a concussion blast that would wipe out everyone in a small lobby. A bomb the size of a car trunk can emit enough of a concussion blast to kill you half a block away. The concussion blast from the Chantry explosion would be a heck of a lot bigger than that! So the idea that only six people died in that blast is foolish. BTW a concussion blast turns your insides to jelly, basically.

Second point: Even if only six people died in that blast--that's six people who didn't do diddly squat to Anders personally.(Well Elthina didn't do what he wanted her to do, so I guess it's only 5 that didn't do diddly) Only six? At what number do we begin to feel outrage? 10? 100? 1000? 10,000? How many people dying does it take before you can no longer excuse what he did?

At the end of Inglorious Basterds, a woman blows up an entire theater full of people. Like several thousand people die... the thing is, they're all members of an evil regime that murdered a huge amount of people and created internment camps... or they're sympathizers with that regime. So when the theater goes up in flames, you cheer.

Now, I'm not saying the particular regime here is AS evil as the one in Inglorious Basterds... that's just the only evil historical regime we ever actually tell stories about, so it's the one I have an example of. Anders is killing only people who explicitly sympathize and support the regime that is responsible for his internment, for threatening to wrongfully execute him years ago, and for illegally lobotomizing his friend.

If there is someone who has stated publically that he will murder you if he ever gets the chance, and you know for a fact that he would do so and get away with it, and the government would in fact, explicitly approve of your murder, and you kill that guy who has threatened to murder you... then, by your reasoning, you are an evil unforgivable bastard who murdered a completly innocent person who never did you any harm.

The Chantry is an authoritarian regime that supports apartheid and declares that it has a legal right to committ mass murder at any point that it so desires. It's fine if you hate Anders for blowing the Chantry up, as long as you similarly hate Han Solo for blowing up the Death Star, and killing all the Empire Sympathizers who had never, personally done anything to Han Solo before in his life. He murdered all those completely innocent Empire officials. At what point do we declare Han Solo an unforgivable war criminal? Ten Empire Officers? A hundred? Those empire captains and admirals have FAMILIES, DAMMIT!

+3

And if I may: 

Modifié par soccerchick, 04 octobre 2011 - 01:49 .

[Cobra's_back]

berelinde wrote...

How many mages is it alright to torture, rape or murder without fear of repercussion before it warrants change?

Who was raped and tortured?

[berelinde]

Alain was raped nightly by Karras. Bethany writes of it happening to others in her letter. One of the mages in the courtyard says that she'll get 30 lashes for talking to civilians. Also, you hear the sounds of a whip crack and screaming when you approach the doors to the Templar Hall in Acts 1 and 2.

No, these aren't Eagle Scouts.

[Carmen_Willow]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

There is one thing I would like to say about the Chantry explosion that some people do not realize. Look at the size of the explosion in the game. An explosion that size has something known as a concussion blast! An explosion of c4 in a cell phone can cause a concussion blast that would wipe out everyone in a small lobby. A bomb the size of a car trunk can emit enough of a concussion blast to kill you half a block away. The concussion blast from the Chantry explosion would be a heck of a lot bigger than that! So the idea that only six people died in that blast is foolish. BTW a concussion blast turns your insides to jelly, basically.

Second point: Even if only six people died in that blast--that's six people who didn't do diddly squat to Anders personally.(Well Elthina didn't do what he wanted her to do, so I guess it's only 5 that didn't do diddly) Only six? At what number do we begin to feel outrage? 10? 100? 1000? 10,000? How many people dying does it take before you can no longer excuse what he did?

At the end of Inglorious Basterds, a woman blows up an entire theater full of people. Like several thousand people die... the thing is, they're all members of an evil regime that murdered a huge amount of people and created internment camps... or they're sympathizers with that regime. So when the theater goes up in flames, you cheer.

Now, I'm not saying the particular regime here is AS evil as the one in Inglorious Basterds... that's just the only evil historical regime we ever actually tell stories about, so it's the one I have an example of. Anders is killing only people who explicitly sympathize and support the regime that is responsible for his internment, for threatening to wrongfully execute him years ago, and for illegally lobotomizing his friend.

If there is someone who has stated publically that he will murder you if he ever gets the chance, and you know for a fact that he would do so and get away with it, and the government would in fact, explicitly approve of your murder, and you kill that guy who has threatened to murder you... then, by your reasoning, you are an evil unforgivable bastard who murdered a completly innocent person who never did you any harm.

The Chantry is an authoritarian regime that supports apartheid and declares that it has a legal right to committ mass murder at any point that it so desires. It's fine if you hate Anders for blowing the Chantry up, as long as you similarly hate Han Solo for blowing up the Death Star, and killing all the Empire Sympathizers who had never, personally done anything to Han Solo before in his life. He murdered all those completely innocent Empire officials. At what point do we declare Han Solo an unforgivable war criminal? Ten Empire Officers? A hundred? Those empire captains and admirals have FAMILIES, DAMMIT!

As I recall the Death Star was a MILITARY establishment!  The people were not civilians. And the Empire pretty much were at WAR with what was left of the Republic. 
Apples and Oranges!

And my point about the concussion blast is that even if he only blew up the Chantry, they weren't the only people who would have died. That entire freaking square would have been filled with dead people who weren't Chantry folk.  And there's the falling debris from the explosion.  Lots of heavy rock going up, up up and then down. Bombs are pretty indiscriminate in who they kill.

(Edited to add content.)

Modifié par Carmen_Willow, 04 octobre 2011 - 02:19 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

As I recall the Death Star was a MILITARY establishment!  The people were not civilians. And the Empire pretty much were at WAR with what was left of the Republic. 
Apples and Oranges!

So the largest military in all of Thedas, which has started more wars than all individual nations combined, and which has wiped an entire country off the map and established an international system of racial apartheid (see: the Elven Alienages, which persist to this day) isn't a military?

How do you figure THAT?

The Divine is the Commander in Chief (or Generalissimo, whichever way you want to see it) of the largest military in Thedas, possibly excepting the Qunari Army.

The Grand Clerics are essentially the same as, say, visiting civilian Imperial dignitaries on the Death Star, or the iconic "construction workers who happen to be working on the death star." They're civilians, but they're directly tied to the largest military institution in Thedas: the Templar order.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 04 octobre 2011 - 02:20 .

[DarkDragon777]

I hated all of them except Varric for his pragmatism.

[kglaser]

I don't dislike anyone, but I don't get why Fenris is so popular. Sorry.

[Flashflame58]

I don't like...Merril. *waits for the shunning*

[DarkDragon777]

Flashflame58 wrote...

I don't like...Merril. *waits for the shunning*

Thank you!

*praises*

[Cobra's_back]

berelinde wrote...

How many mages is it alright to torture, rape or murder without fear of repercussion before it warrants change?

Do you mean the bounty hunters we kill in Wayward Son quest? Do you mean the agressive Templar Ser Karras in "Act of Mercy"? I played a female mage and we lied to him. The mages went free except Alain. I thought the Templars were clueless. Ser Karras never even threadened my mage. Did he respond differently in your playthrough?

[ItsPhilsTime]

In DA2 I actually liked Fenris, but my fav even above Hawk was Varric. the rest i didnt care for. well this is how it would go Varric, Hawk, Fenris, Bethany. cant stand the other really but dont hate Isebella.

[Blitzkrieg0811]

I would post in this topic, but I don't feel like writing the essay it would take to express myself.