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[Quething]

esper wrote...

Aveline - At first I liked her a lot, but since I play mage I have a hard time in forgiving her for preventing Carver in trying for guard, and each time I play I realize a little what a currupt guard she actually is.

Aveline, I go back and forth on a lot. She's certainly really hypocritical (her opinion on Kelder versus her opinion on the elves the Arishok is sheltering, her judgement when Hawke talks to demons versus her refusal to own up to her own turn in the Fade, her regular riding of Hawke's ass over ethically questionable activity versus her riding of Hawke's ass for riding Isabela for same). And there's stuff she does that's just... really, really hard to get past. Telling Hawke to shun Gascard's blood magic and let her guards find Leandra (really, like you'd sit back and let someone else find a missing Donnic?). Telling a mage!Hawke that mages aren't human and the Gallows might not be so bad, just because she's having a bad day. Being offended by Hawke not wanting to mourn Leandra exactly the way Aveline wants him/her to. Her willingness to Anull a Circle with Bethany in it.

I think the problem with her for me is that you don't really get much of a chance to call her on any of that. Her Rival path is poorly defined, but seems mostly about being anti-authoritarian and Chaotic and trying to balance out and mediate her sometimes overly Lawful worldview; there's never any sense by the game that she, Hawke, or anyone else, even the narrative, recognizes her flaws and inconsistencies. Nobody gives her grief about any of it in banter, you can't challenge her on it in dialog, and the general perspective everybody has of her when she's discussed is one of straightforward stick-up-the-butt righteousness that isn't all that borne out by her actions. It makes it harder for me to forgive her things that are really nowhere near as egregious as what I'll forgive other companions. Sure, Carver joins the Templars, but at no point is it not clear to everyone that he was being petty and childish. Sure, Izzy steals the Tome, but everyone ****es about it, Hawke can yell at her, and she apologizes. Sure, Anders blows up the Chantry, but half the game's NPCs want him dead for it and you can oblige them. Meanwhile Aveline just sort of... carries on completely oblivious to how much she fails to meet her own standards and everyone and everything in the game seems to be as well.

I still like her as a general rule. She has a lot of good qualities worthy of respect, is a fine sister to my Hawkes and their friends, and I don't blame her for her plot-induced failure of competence in the whole Quentin thing. But it's not always easy.

[esper]

Quething wrote...

esper wrote...

Aveline - At first I liked her a lot, but since I play mage I have a hard time in forgiving her for preventing Carver in trying for guard, and each time I play I realize a little what a currupt guard she actually is.

Aveline, I go back and forth on a lot. She's certainly really hypocritical (her opinion on Kelder versus her opinion on the elves the Arishok is sheltering, her judgement when Hawke talks to demons versus her refusal to own up to her own turn in the Fade, her regular riding of Hawke's ass over ethically questionable activity versus her riding of Hawke's ass for riding Isabela for same). And there's stuff she does that's just... really, really hard to get past. Telling Hawke to shun Gascard's blood magic and let her guards find Leandra (really, like you'd sit back and let someone else find a missing Donnic?). Telling a mage!Hawke that mages aren't human and the Gallows might not be so bad, just because she's having a bad day. Being offended by Hawke not wanting to mourn Leandra exactly the way Aveline wants him/her to. Her willingness to Anull a Circle with Bethany in it.

I think the problem with her for me is that you don't really get much of a chance to call her on any of that. Her Rival path is poorly defined, but seems mostly about being anti-authoritarian and Chaotic and trying to balance out and mediate her sometimes overly Lawful worldview; there's never any sense by the game that she, Hawke, or anyone else, even the narrative, recognizes her flaws and inconsistencies. Nobody gives her grief about any of it in banter, you can't challenge her on it in dialog, and the general perspective everybody has of her when she's discussed is one of straightforward stick-up-the-butt righteousness that isn't all that borne out by her actions. It makes it harder for me to forgive her things that are really nowhere near as egregious as what I'll forgive other companions. Sure, Carver joins the Templars, but at no point is it not clear to everyone that he was being petty and childish. Sure, Izzy steals the Tome, but everyone ****es about it, Hawke can yell at her, and she apologizes. Sure, Anders blows up the Chantry, but half the game's NPCs want him dead for it and you can oblige them. Meanwhile Aveline just sort of... carries on completely oblivious to how much she fails to meet her own standards and everyone and everything in the game seems to be as well.

I still like her as a general rule. She has a lot of good qualities worthy of respect, is a fine sister to my Hawkes and their friends, and I don't blame her for her plot-induced failure of competence in the whole Quentin thing. But it's not always easy.

It is exactly that. It feels like Aveline is made to be the overly lawfull, but good character - The problem is the only banter that points out her hypocritcy is Merrill's: are you are bad guard?
I feel like Aveline we are forced to like Aveline if we are a lawfull person, but the more I analyze the game the more I think that Aveline is actually really corrupt and it is only really pointed out once!
Her flaws are not that she is lawfull, self-righteousness. Her flaw is that she actually places her friends above the law, she claims to hold so dear - which is the one thing a Guard-Captain musn't do, because bending the laws from your friends is being currupt - and it is mostly ignored. If it was touched more, I would like her more. 

[Neminea]

Her loyalty doesn't seem "real" to me. I remember when I first got to the city and did her quest, after which she get's yelled at by her captain. When that is done she states something like: "Threathening my friends? Not letting that one go." Which rubbed me backwards. My Hawke hadn't done anything nice for her, had even killed her husband after a non too gentle conversation, and she conciders me a friend? Really? I am all for loyalty towards friends, but hers just seemed so suddon and easy. And she does seem corrupt doesn't she? She also helps out Fenris by making sure nobody kicks him out of that mension, going so far as to adjust patrol schedules.

Edited by Neminea, 13 August 2011 - 03:27 PM.

[esper]

@Neminea, yes and it really irks me that no one in game really points it out, but she instead as seem as overly lawfull...

[Knight of Dane]

Arquen wrote...
@ Knight of Dane -- I'm confused if that was an insult or a "you don't get her at all!" statement. If anything it didn't defend Merrill to me much. I have walked up and down and all around with her character and I just don't like her. Everything from her physical look to her voice to her whole personal story of single handedly wanting to restore culture and knowledge to her people by any means necessary. I do not like her *shrug*

No insults, i just found it funny that you based your hate for her on alot of points that are not true
But hey, your opinion matters as much as mine

[Nhadalie]

I like all of the companions.

I do have to agree with Ipgd a little though. The rivalmance with Fenris was kind of.. Disappointing. It had so much potential, but it really wasn't that different from the friendmance. I think the dynamic between Fenris and a rivalmance Hawke, especially a mage one, could've been much better.

I hated Merrill's naivety though.. I think it's adorable at times. But she points out several times how involved the Dalish clan is with each other's lives. She knows that there's no way she can work with a demon without her clan getting involved. Yet even as it becomes more and more obvious as the game goes by, she doesn't notice at all. She never angsts about whether she's doing the right thing or not, even as a rival. As a rival, she just assumes that she knows better than Hawke, despite evidence pointing to the fact that Hawke is right. I just want to shake her sometimes.

I also dislike how Aveline claims you're friends with her, but she won't actually talk to Hawke about things. There's a difference between being private, and outright telling a friend that something isn't any of their business. It's especially hypocritical when you remember the fact that Aveline is spying on both you and Carver. So she can know every detail of your life, but she can't let Hawke in, and actually treat him/her as a friend.

Edited by Nhadalie, 13 August 2011 - 03:51 PM.

[Neminea]

Nhadalie wrote...
 As a rival, she just assumes that she knows better than Hawke, despite evidence pointing to the fact that Hawke is right.

"your air of superiority does give you away" (Fenris to Merrill)

[Asch Lavigne]

Anders, Isabela and Sebastian.

Anders I just hate flat out, although my opinion is somewhat biased having seen him in Awakening. Everything out of his mouth is mage this, templar that, tranquil, oppression. Does he even have any banter that has anything to do with anything else? I just want Hawke to tell him to shut the **** up, we get it already Anders!

Isabela I just never liked. I always rival her (I did try friendship once and a romance just to see) but I can not warm up to her. I think her only redeeming moment is when she shows up at the end of Act 2. Then she goes and spoils it during her Act 3 quest. To the Qunari with you.

Sebastian, I hate the whole Chantry personality, but putting that aside, I think he's dull as heck. I don't think there's one interesting thing about him. And I'm glad he came with the Collectors Edition because I would have hated to have paid for him.

[Xilizhra]

The only companion I don't like is Sebastian. I just don't find him to be that interesting, he doesn't integrate into the plot well, he's a potential traitor (a state of affairs that Fenris shuts down), and he has a regrettable lack of commitment to anything unless he's angry.

Everyone else I like or at least respect (or in one case, love dearly).

[Neminea]

There is actually some funny banter between Anders and Varric about what they are going to do to Bartrand after the Deep roads that does not involve mages or templars

[miraclemight]

To be honest, I couldn't really connect to much of the characters aside from Varric on my first playthrough. Because most of them are obssessed with something, and after a while, it starts to get on the nerve. Alec said it well.

I'm generally pro-mage but Anders' constant mage this/mage that was too much that it reached a point I just wanted to turn around and smack him everytime he opened his mouth, even though my Hawke had romanced him.

Same goes for Fenris as well, but at least he is decent enough to stick by Hawke's side even when s/he supports the mages in the end. And he doesn't talk about it all the time when Hawke visits his mansion between acts.

Merrill... She's cute, but I sure hope Bioware takes my full rivalry into account and stop her blood magic obsession in future DLC/expansion.

I didn't like Sebastian either, probably because he was the opposite side of Anders, but still hypocritical like him.

Edited by miraclemight, 13 August 2011 - 05:05 PM.

[Carmen_Willow]

Arquen wrote...

I personally hated Merrill. Not her fanservice, whiny, naive child-like spirit, but the fact that you wanted to just smack her. You wanted to grab her and shake her and be like, "where did you think this was going to go!?" - "What part of demons are bad didn't you understand?" As sweet and kind and *annoying* as she was it was an immense pain in the butt trying to get her to see anything but 2 feet in front of her. A personality trait that I just clash with. I honestly just didn't want to play mother hen to her. She's an adult, and can make her own decisions, but it isn't the fact that she is willing to die or sacrifice herself. I could care less if she did so. It is the fact that through her actions she endangers not only herself but her clan and her friends and everyone around her as well. Yet she refuses to see that.

Oh so very this!

I absolutely love Carver. Of all the companions he is just everything a sibling should be. He is abrasive and melodramatic at times, but also very sweet at times.

And ths.  Younger siblings--gotta love 'em!

[Xilizhra]

Meh. The clan was far more endangered by Marethari, both by her keeping them camped on a demon-infested mountain for six years and for allowing herself to become possessed without telling anyone. The Eluvian and Merrill were in Kirkwall and couldn't affect the Dalish anymore without Marethari's interference. And the demon thing can pay off; you can deal with the hunger demon in the Deep Roads and then scare it off, and you can also frighten the desire demon in Origins into giving you something and then leaving without hurting Connor ever again.

[CrimsonZephyr]

alex90c wrote...

Esbatty wrote...

Well Alex left out Bethany, I think he has a soft spot for her.

She's okay, just generally uninteresting. Only thing that really made her likeable was the fact that she wasn't insane, and the fact that ... well... everyone else was ridiculously unlikeable due to their over-the-top extreme attitudes/idiocy towards things.

Having a stable personality isn't bad. I'm actually glad they didn't make her angsty (unless she's a Warden), obsessed with innuendo, or sarcastic in exactly the same way as the others. Plus, not insane, not fanatical, and not a constant whiner. There's value in that.

Anyway, for me, it was Sebastian, Fenris, Anders, and Isabela that grated on me.

[miraclemight]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Arquen wrote...

I personally hated Merrill. Not her fanservice, whiny, naive child-like spirit, but the fact that you wanted to just smack her. You wanted to grab her and shake her and be like, "where did you think this was going to go!?" - "What part of demons are bad didn't you understand?" As sweet and kind and *annoying* as she was it was an immense pain in the butt trying to get her to see anything but 2 feet in front of her. A personality trait that I just clash with. I honestly just didn't want to play mother hen to her. She's an adult, and can make her own decisions, but it isn't the fact that she is willing to die or sacrifice herself. I could care less if she did so. It is the fact that through her actions she endangers not only herself but her clan and her friends and everyone around her as well. Yet she refuses to see that.

Oh so very this!

Not to start a quote pyramid. But so much this!

Particularly the moment she says "I left the clan so she wouldn't be hurt." I was disappointed I couldn't reply with a "You left the clan and came to a city to endanger thousands more people? Were you mad?"

Edited by miraclemight, 13 August 2011 - 05:51 PM.

[Xilizhra]

It isn't like she actually does anything dangerous ever to anyone but herself. Marethari is the one who makes it dangerous.

[TobiTobsen]

I'm not quite sure where to put Aveline.

What did she do while Hawke and his sibling were paying the debt for getting into the city, hers included? Serving in the Guard obviously, because a year later she is already a Lieutenant, while Hawke and his sibling are "slaves" in some shady organisation.

What did she do when Carver wanted to join the Guard? Telling the Captain not to take him. I mean... seriously? What the ****? The Hawkes are near poverty and trying to avoid the Templars, Carver wants to become the only thing in town that doesn't seem to be some kind of slave labour for Fereldans and she activly works against that? Nice move Aveline... why did the Hawkes paid your debt for getting into the city again?

What did she do to stop the White Lily Killer besides being a hindrance for Emeric, failing to spot an obvious trapdoor under a freaking barrel in the foundry or failing to spot all the paperwork from Gascard DePuis that connected him to the Killer? She was probably swooning over Donnic or something like that.

Her developing anti mage feelings are just the icing on the cake. You turned on Hawke in the Fade and for that every mage should be locked away in the circle? Really Aveline?

I'm really trying to like her, but the battering ram is making it hard sometimes.

Edited by TobiTobsen, 13 August 2011 - 05:59 PM.

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

It isn't like she actually does anything dangerous ever to anyone but herself. Marethari is the one who makes it dangerous.

I wouldn't go that far. Even if you reject the idea that one cannot deal safely with demons (unless you've got PC plot armor), she still asks Hawke and up to two friends to potentially pit themselves against an exceedingly powerful one in combat.

Though my issue with Merrill is less about the danger she invites to her clan/Kirkwall (Hawke doesn't lead a revolt against Meredith or kill Anders after Dissent, and thus has no room to talk anyway), and more her insistence on forcing her help on people who didn't ask for it. I would actually have more respect for her quest if she was into the mirror and dealing with the demon out of her own intellectual curiosity. But her insistence on projecting it all onto her clan... it's like if your brother says "I don't even like being within a hundred yards of a puddle" and then you go out and offer your kidney to a loan shark in exchange for a speedboat for him. Like... do you really expect him to appreciate this? He didn't want it to begin with and he definitely doesn't want to see you hurt for it, and insisting that you're doing it for his benefit (blaming him, in essence) is only going to make things worse.

It doesn't mean I don't like her - I'm actually quite fond of her - but it does mean it's a rare game I don't Rival her. Most of my Hawkes are at least passingly interested in what's behind the mirror, several have no issue with blood magic, and almost all respect her explanation that it's a Keeper's job to remember. But almost none can cheer on her insistence that she knows what's good for her clan better than they do. (Which, ironically, forces them to act like they know what's good for her better than she does. Fortunately since she's clinically depressed and they're not, that's at least occasionally true... :/)

Edited by Quething, 13 August 2011 - 06:24 PM.

[Xilizhra]

I have... issues with the rivalmance. It's my second most hated decision behind siding with the templars at the end, and it may be even more personally offensive and disgusting to me. Ordinary rivalry is less so, but I still despise it.

The important thing to remember is that Merrill is doing this for all Dalish everywhere, not just her clan. She'd love to help her clan, but they're just a small piece of the puzzle. The fact that they're pissy about it and being manipulated into hating her by Marethari (and probably the demon) isn't her fault.

Also, Hawke and co. have taken down a pride demon before: Wryme.

And since when is Merrill clinically depressed?

Edited by Xilizhra, 13 August 2011 - 06:30 PM.

[jlb524]

Xilizhra wrote...
The important thing to remember is that Merrill is doing this for all Dalish everywhere, not just her clan.

Absolutely.  You can't say that medical researchers who toil for the betterment of humankind are forcing their help on people.

Merrill expected her clan to leave after a few years in Sundermount and she knew she'd probably never see them specifically again.  Therefore, I always got the impression that she was working to better all the Dalish elves by restoring a potentially powerful piece of  history.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I didn't dislike any character. But they committed the much graver sin of making me be utterly indifferent to their entire existence. All except two (and maybe 3).

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

The important thing to remember is that Merrill is doing this for all Dalish everywhere, not just her clan.

They didn't ask for it either. (You're not going to like how I feel about Anders making the choice of war for all mages everywhere, either. ) And actually, I maintain that she only thinks she's doing it for the Dalish. But you're obviously not going to agree with me on that one.

Also, Hawke and co. have taken down a pride demon before: Wryme.

Eh. Quicksave game mechanics aside, from a lore perspective you're supposed to approach every fight as though it could be your last, just as is true in real life. I've biked thousands of miles in my life without getting hurt. I've also gone over the front of my handlebars twice. Danger doesn't get less dangerous just because you've beaten it before.

And since when is Merrill clinically depressed?

Since she genuinely does not believe her life has actual value to anyone, beyond her ability to spend it on the Mirror?

Edited by Quething, 13 August 2011 - 06:40 PM.

[Zjarcal]

I didn't dislike anyone. Sebastian might have been boring to me at times, but I can't say I dislike him.

The rest I loved (well, with Varric I only liked him).

[Xilizhra]

They didn't ask for it either. (You're not going to like how I feel about Anders making the choice of war for all mages everywhere, either. ) And actually, I maintain that she only thinks she's doing it for the Dalish. But you're obviously not going to agree with me on that one.

So pioneers of research in any field should wait until their work becomes known and popular to do anything?

Eh. Quicksave game mechanics aside, from a lore perspective you're supposed to approach every fight as though it could be your last, just as is true in real life. I've biked thousands of miles in my life without getting hurt. I've also gone over the front of my handlebars twice. Danger doesn't get less dangerous just because you've beaten it before.

Well, for Hawke, it's either fight the demon (maybe) or have Merrill die or be possessed. And for Merrill, it's risk herself or let the Dalish continue dying out. The stakes are presumably worth it.

Since she genuinely does not believe her life has actual value to anyone, beyond her ability to spend it on the Mirror?

I don't know if I'd say that, but... given that Fenris and Anders hate her, Avenline thinks she's stupid, Varric is sort of protective but patronizing and Hawke can be like that too... the only person who seems to actually respect and like Merrill is Isabela and possibly Hawke, and I can see where this perception would come from.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I didn't dislike any character. But they committed the much graver sin of making me be utterly indifferent to their entire existence. All except two (and maybe 3).

Which 3? I know one of them is Anders right?