613 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
He wasn't targeting innocents in that explosion. He was targeting Elthina, the person directly in charge of the local military detatchment, and those who were protecting her. Might innocents have gotten caught up in the blast? Yes. But nowhere anywhere in the game is it even remotely implied by any character, even ones who dislike Anders, that the point of the blast was to kill innocents.

I think that can be called sophistry.  He didn't go out of his way to kill innocents, but he did target them, in that he wanted something big and horrific enough that both the public and the authorities would have to react to it.

[berelinde]

Wulfram wrote...
There's absolutely no basis for the idea that the Chantry would want to destroy Kirkwall.  It's an Andrastean city, loyal to Elthina and the Chantry.  It's destruction would be motiveless and ridiculous, to the extent that this supposed fact has been used as evidence of the Divine is insane.  And we have extensive knowledge of Leliana's character and some knowledge of the Divine when she was Reverend Mother Dorothea, and neither of them appear to be Genghiz Khan or Tamerlane.

You don't march an army across half of Thedas to deliver a strongly worded letter. If the Divine imagined for a moment that this would end in anything less than devastating civilian losses, she would not bother attempting to evacuate Elthina. If her sole target was the mages, she would not need to bring an army at all, as the mages are already locked up in one building, chained inside their cells.  Elthina even goes so far as to say that if the Exalted March does come to Kirkwall, she needs to remain in order to protect whatever civilians she can. She doesn't notice the abuses taking place under her very nose, but she does manage to spot the threat an Exalted March poses to the city of Kirkwall. That's saying something.

[Wulfram]

berelinde wrote...

You don't march an army across half of Thedas to deliver a strongly worded letter. If the Divine imagined for a moment that this would end in anything less than devastating civilian losses, she would not bother attempting to evacuate Elthina.

Yes, clearly Elthina is in no danger.  She is the Grand Cleric!  Who would dare harm her?

And the prospect of civilian casualties, which are indeed a high likelihood when you're fighting a war, particularly involving mages, is not the same thing as those civilian casualties being the objective, which is what you have claimed.

If her sole target was the mages, she would not need to bring an army at all, as the mages are already locked up in one building, chained inside their cells.

Orsino and his mages hardly appear chained inside their cells when they're confronting Meredith on the steps of the Chantry.

You continue to present no motive for why the Divine should decide to randomly massacre a whole bunch of her loyal subjects.  Other than it suiting you to portray the Chantry as insanely evil.

And it is indeed true that an Exalted March against an imprisoned circle doesn't make much sense.  That seems like a good reason not to believe the speculation that this is going to happen.

Elthina even goes so far as to say that if the Exalted March does come to Kirkwall, she needs to remain in order to protect whatever civilians she can. She doesn't notice the abuses taking place under her very nose, but she does manage to spot the threat an Exalted March poses to the city of Kirkwall. That's saying something.

You apparently possess a different copy of the game to mine, because none of this happens in my game.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 octobre 2011 - 07:23 .

[berelinde]

Wulfram wrote...
You apparently possess a different copy of the game to mine, because none of this happens in my game.

Apparently, so. You should probably contact tech support.

[Knight of Dane]

Elthina says that if Kirkwall falls to war it will be the innocents who pay the price, not that it would be a exalted march specifically.

[berelinde]

You know, I'm wondering if Wulfram doesn't have the Exiled Prince DLC. A lot of the Exiled March stuff is part of that. Without that, I could understand thinking that it's nothing but forum hyperbole.

[Knight of Dane]

Yes because he disagrees he suddenly just don't know what he's talking about.

[Wulfram]

I have the Exalted March DLC. I try to pay attention to what is said in it, and what is not.

[berelinde]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Yes because he disagrees he suddenly just don't know what he's talking about.

No, lots of people aren't willing to see the ugly side of the Chantry. But I have vague half-recollections of some pro-Chantry person stating that they don't have that particular DLC. Might have been Wulfram. Or not. If he does have the DLC, he's missing a lot of the content, though.

Edit: I don't have to rely on my memory alone. I have the whole thing recorded with FRAPS, labeled by quest. When I want to verify dialogue, I just replay the video.

Modifié par berelinde, 04 octobre 2011 - 08:00 .

[Knight of Dane]

Are you only pro-chantry Wulfram?

[Wulfram]

I'm not relying on memory, I've just replayed the quest.  As I've done repeatedly, because people keep confusing their speculation with fact and their interpretations with what is actually said.

edit: I'm not pro-Chantry, though I don't assume that all parts of it are inherently evil, either.  For what it's worth, I've played through the game with 8 different characters, only one of which has not supported the Templars in the end.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 octobre 2011 - 08:07 .

[Knight of Dane]

Thanks for the reply, i have been mistaken for pro-templar several times just because i don't hold with attacks on innocents.

I only had one templar supporter in my playthroughs too, but i felt like a traitor to Bethany so i didn't like :/

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Wulfram wrote...

I'm not relying on memory, I've just replayed the quest.  As I've done repeatedly, because people keep confusing their speculation with fact and their interpretations with what is actually said.

edit: I'm not pro-Chantry, though I don't assume that all parts of it are inherently evil, either.  For what it's worth, I've played through the game with 8 different characters, only one of which has not supported the Templars in the end.

But you seem to be ignoring history, that is to say what has happened in every other exalted march in history, including the only one that was considered "successful."

As I said before, the march on the Dales obliterated the country, confiscated the lands of all the residents, put them in  ghettos, instituted an international policy of apartheid, and established a policy of murdering those who refused to submit to apartheid. What makes you think that an Exalted march on Kirkwall would not be horrific? 

I don't think the city would be razed, but I think all the mages would definitely be killed, along with anyone who resisted or did not agree to whatever the chantry decided was an appropriate "punishment," whether it be apartheid, confiscation, or simply internment.

You address only what happens on screen in Dragon Age 2, but you seem to be ignoring the collective history of Exalted Marches.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 04 octobre 2011 - 08:49 .

[Knight of Dane]

That is because he argues that there is nothing short of a few hints that even suggests that there was going to be a exalted march. He does not argue about the history as it only matters if this was a matter of repeating it, but it is not, it is rumors from a internet forum.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:00 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I honestly don't think that an exalted march was guaranteed to happen either, but I think we have to at least admit that it was, at some point, on the Divine's list of possible solutions. I'd say there was probably about a 40% chance of her going with it, if things got bad enough that she sent someone to evacuate Elthina.

It isn't the equivalent of internet rumors... it seems more similar to, say, a leaked memo discussing the feasibility of an exalted march, or something like that. I think we have solid evidence that it was on the drawing board at least, though no solid evidence as to it's probability.

The thing is, those who try to dismiss the danger of the march also tend to downplay its severity, and I think it is VERY important not to forget history in that case.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:08 .

[Wulfram]

I have never suggested that an Exalted March would be all fun and games. Wars aren't fun.

It's hard to speculate as to what an Exalted March on Kirkwall would entail, because such a thing makes no sense. The most likely scenario seems to be a campaign against Meredith, really. The seizure of power in the city by a rebellious circle may also trigger such a response, but given how much stronger the Templars appear to be in Kirkwall that seems unlikely

My contentions are

1. It is never said that the Divine is contemplating or planning an Exalted March, though there is some talk of holy war from ill informed sources such as Sebastian and Hawke.
2. If such a campaign were to be called, the razing of Kirkwall would not be it's objective.

[Nashiktal]

40% chance? I am sorry CGG, but where did you get the math for that? It is entirely defunct without something backing it up. I can agree that is was in a list of possible solutions, but exalted marches are very serious affairs, and kirkwall is just one city and once circle. There are various other ways to deal with all these mages.

Although I have to say you have to admit that due to the city's circumstances that blood mages are a very visible problem caused by a very invisible condition.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:20 .

[Dave of Canada]

Elthina assumes there could be an Exalted March if open war was declared on the streets of Kirkwall, which is completely reasonable assumption when open war between the mages and the templar would be declared. 

The entire point of Leliana being in Kirkwall was to evaluate the situation, it isn't like the Divine wanted to do an Exalted March because it was funny.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:34 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I honestly don't care about the exalted march, other than that I think it's a possibility that must be acknowledged, and that's all. When I said 40% I was just guessing, based on the extremely limited information we have in game.

Regardless of whether or not the march happens, the Chantry is an international authoritarian regime that interferes in the sovereign rights of other nations and believes it has the right to unilaterally invade any country it decides it does not like for any reason it sees fit, and institute policies rife with human rights violations on any survivors.

One didn't happen, but the likelihood of it happening feels irrelevant to me. The fact that they'd even consider demolishing a sovereign state in that way is troubling, especially bearing in mind that they could have easily taken direct action that would have defused the situation peacefully. (Transferring some mages away from Kirkwall, having Elthina, Meredith and Orsino all step down simultaneously, etc.)

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:45 .

[Dave of Canada]

Except they were considering "demolishing" it after open war would be declared... unless it's troubling for a group to send an army to a contested city?

[Wulfram]

I don't see how transferring some of the mages away from Kirkwall would have helped at all, and if you suspect Blood magic is being practiced then it risks spreading it to other circles.

The assumption that the Chantry had the power to depose Meredith is unsafe. As Sebastian says "She's stopped taking the Chantry's advice."

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I don't see anything in the clip or quest that implies it would only occur in the case of open war. Where do you get that idea? The idea I got was that in any situation where the mages gained any degree of political power, (even if it was peacefully, like via the city deciding to try to remove Meredith) the march would be called, war or not.

It says she's stopped following the Chantry's advice, not that she's disobeyed any ORDERS. It seems to me that the trouble is that she's only being given advice, not direct orders, so she's free to disobey while the Chantry has plausible deniability. So you're saying that if Elthina appointed a new Knight Commander, all the Templars under Meredith would refuse to follow the Chantry's orders, and obey Meredith instead?

Are you saying that Meredith is in open rebellion against the chantry at this point and they are taking no action against her? They have a Knight Commander who is completely rogue and can do nothing? That is even more proof that they are not just uncaring and irresponsible, but completely incompetent!

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 04 octobre 2011 - 10:00 .

[Wulfram]

I'm saying the Knight Commander is in quiet rebellion, and that they don't want it to become open.

Remember, 3 years after these events the Templar order as a whole is in open rebellion.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 octobre 2011 - 10:04 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

So you're saying it's fine for the Chantry to appoint someone as a teapot dictator, allow them to ravage a city, and then threaten that city with invasion if the city can't control the dictator that the Chantry appointed?

WHAT?

[Wulfram]

No, I'm not. I don't support the Templars, or the Chantry. I also don't accept that the Chantry has threatened Kirkwall with invasion, though I suppose that might be necessary to bring Meredith into line.

What I'm saying is that the situation in Kirkwall isn't one which can be salvaged with a mere snap of the fingers from the Divine or Grand Cleric. Not in Act 3, anyway.