613 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

@CCG: So did you mean your examples only in a Dragon Age context, then? Or just a general context? Either way, those examples don't take into account magic. That's why it's very different. A reasonable opinion on Anders takes into account magic - because it's a fundamental importance. It changes "authoritarian government imprisoning innocents" to "authoritarian government imprisoning potentially extremely dangerous innocents."
There are abuses against the mages, such as rape or unnecessarily violent beatings, but that is not the goal of the circle system. It is rather the actions of individual corrupt templars. It is not required, and not overall encouraged.

And to clarify, I don't consider mages or templars/chantry to be necessarily innocent or guilty. It really depends on the individual. I generally support the mages in almost all respects in the game (Anders being a possible exception).
You have examples like Thrask who tried to help the mages, yet he remained a templar. Carver is another example, in that he'll assist Hawke against Meredith's unjust ruling of annulment. Carver and Thrask aren't templars because they want to throw innocent people in prison. They're templars because they believe mages to be dangerous and want to protect people from those dangers. It's an unfounded belief, either. Mages are more powerful than the common man, factually.

[berelinde]

Collider wrote...

@CCG: So did you mean your examples only in a Dragon Age context, then? Or just a general context? Either way, those examples don't take into account magic. That's why it's very different. A reasonable opinion on Anders takes into account magic - because it's a fundamental importance. It changes "authoritarian government imprisoning innocents" to "authoritarian government imprisoning potentially extremely dangerous innocents."
There are abuses against the mages, such as rape or unnecessarily violent beatings, but that is not the goal of the circle system. It is rather the actions of individual corrupt templars. It is not required, and not overall encouraged.

And to clarify, I don't consider mages or templars/chantry to be necessarily innocent or guilty. It really depends on the individual. I generally support the mages in almost all respects in the game (Anders being a possible exception).
You have examples like Thrask who tried to help the mages, yet he remained a templar. Carver is another example, in that he'll assist Hawke against Meredith's unjust ruling of annulment. Carver and Thrask aren't templars because they want to throw innocent people in prison. They're templars because they believe mages to be dangerous and want to protect people from those dangers. It's an unfounded belief, either. Mages are more powerful than the common man, factually.

You probably pointed this at the Fenris thread and it got misplaced. The forum software seems to do that all the time.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

No, we're actually trying to move this out of the Fenris thread to be polite. At first the idea was to argue it here, but instead I made a new shiny thread to try to avoid this kind of confusion. There were some crossed wires, but the new thread is up now.  Problem solved! Or... problem started?

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 09 octobre 2011 - 02:55 .

[berelinde]

Ah, gotcha. My bad.

[Sinuphro]

i hate fenris, sebastian, and isabela
fenris: ignorant emo guy that paints every mage as a bad person. glad i gave him back to Danarius for brainwashing

sebastian: ignorant chantry heretic. would definitely like to kill him with my own hands

isabela: sees every guy and a potential john to hump. As just a friend fine; but will never having anything sexual with her. I bet even that deceased viscount of kirkwall even slept with her and that vermin templar called sir elrick

[Sinuphro]

Nashiktal wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

No, I'm not. I don't support the Templars, or the Chantry. I also don't accept that the Chantry has threatened Kirkwall with invasion, though I suppose that might be necessary to bring Meredith into line.

What I'm saying is that the situation in Kirkwall isn't one which can be salvaged with a mere snap of the fingers from the Divine or Grand Cleric. Not in Act 3, anyway.

Indeed. Although I suspect had elthina more guts to her name and oppenly speak against meredith, she would have been killed by her and thus temporarily shifting attention away from the mage issue. If anders was in more control of himself he should have figured a way to do that instead of putting the world to the sword.

Anders did the right thing

[Sinuphro]

Heidenreich wrote...

Collider wrote...

You said that he thinks that dalish elves are supposed to be above "human bull****."
Hence, racism.

You're picking at straws. I was parahrasing. It's actually made pretty clear in game that HE doesn't  like the Dalish very much at all. The Dalish speak a great deal of the freedom of all Elves... and how
they're the only true Elvehn left. Yet they never act upon their great words. Fenris rolls his eyes at this
comment if you take him with you to meet Merrill.

My point was, that Dalish Elves are suposed to represent the purist of elf blood lines and ideals. They're pratically a myth. They do actually exist, but they're so rairly seen by city elves that their standards of what dalish are suposed to be.. and what they actually are, differ greately.


Also?

Nashiktal wrote...

I always liked fenris, even with my
mage hawkes. He is rightfully spiteful of mages, he is an ex-slave from
tevinter after all. He knows what could happen if mages were ever to
rise back into power, and he has evidence of that first hand carved
straight into his skin.

His hate is not irrational, it is what
he is used to, and when you toss him from tevinter where blood mages run
wild, to kirkwall where blood mages run... Half wild, well he is going
to point out the problem and he is going to make his voice
heard.

*highfive*

fail.

1st of all fenris was not forced to be a slave to Danarius. He lived with his sister Adriana. The markings on Fenris body...he requested it from Danarius in short he fought to earn that right so his sister could have her freedom. Unfortunately, receiving those markings pretty much killed his soul; that y he cannot even come to the realization that the mages in kirkwall and everywhere else were suffering.   A lot of ppl in tevinter had slaves of all races; not necessarily just elves. Dun blame the tevinter; blame the ppl doing the slave trade.

Here's even another fun interesting fact pointing to why templars and the chantry are scum. if u hate mages that much..y not send them to the tevinter?? y do they have to imprison them? mages are needed and are important ppl to have around. instead of respecting them they abuse them. I bet if the tevinter have been involved with fighting the blight the threat of darkspawn would had disappeared

[Ulaume]

Sinuphro wrote...

fail.

1st of all fenris was not forced to be a slave to Danarius. He lived with his sister Adriana. The markings on Fenris body...he requested it from Danarius in short he fought to earn that right so his sister could have her freedom. Unfortunately, receiving those markings pretty much killed his soul; that y he cannot even come to the realization that the mages in kirkwall and everywhere else were suffering.   A lot of ppl in tevinter had slaves of all races; not necessarily just elves. Dun blame the tevinter; blame the ppl doing the slave trade.

Here's even another fun interesting fact pointing to why templars and the chantry are scum. if u hate mages that much..y not send them to the tevinter?? y do they have to imprison them? mages are needed and are important ppl to have around. instead of respecting them they abuse them. I bet if the tevinter have been involved with fighting the blight the threat of darkspawn would had disappeared

o_O makes me wonder if you are referring to the same game as everyone else...

[CulturalGeekGirl]

The funny thing is that I don't dislike any of the companions in either game. I mean I kind of suspected Leliana was a chantry spy from the start (or possibly an Orlesian spy), but she was nice enough, and so I just never trusted her... but that's hardly disliking her (and it turned out I was right all along, most likely.)

Sebastian is the character I come closest to disliking, seeing as he's the apotheosis of wealthy while male privilege, but I even have some sympathy for him.

[labargegrrrl]

 i'm going to bring down some hate and say Bethany Hawke was my least favorite.  both as a Circle Mage and a Grey Warden.  looking back, my favorite thing about playing a mage was that the too-good-to-be-true, sugar-coated pile of simpering self-loathing bit the dust early.  all of the other characters had stories i found compelling, even when i didn't like or agree with them.  Carver at least grew up and got a spine, one way or the other.

[Arquen]

This thread is starting to read like bad fanfic, amusing.

Isabela is nothing like Morrigan.. like.. not even remotely. I loved both of them. The only similarity I see is their apparent lack of caring to cover themselves with lots of cloth.

Bethany wasn't terribly interesting to me. I don't dislike sunshine, but her story and growth is a bit drab and simply doesn't intrigue me as much as others. I adored Carver.

Gahh... why do I even post in this thread... bored I guess, lol.

[Sealy]

Arquen wrote...

This thread is starting to read like bad fanfic, amusing.

Isabela is nothing like Morrigan.. like.. not even remotely. I loved both of them. The only similarity I see is their apparent lack of caring to cover themselves with lots of cloth.

Bethany wasn't terribly interesting to me. I don't dislike sunshine, but her story and growth is a bit drab and simply doesn't intrigue me as much as others. I adored Carver.

Gahh... why do I even post in this thread... bored I guess, lol.

Thanks, I really needed to spit water all over my screen.

[Arquen]

I aim to please.. though I totally am trolling this thread more than actually contributing, lmao.

What got me was the story of some guy called Fenris who was living with his sister adriana. That poor guy chose to be a slave and apparently had his soul killed. I was intrigued. I must have missed that companion.

My Fenris eye-roll is coming across I hope?

Modifié par Arquen, 10 octobre 2011 - 09:55 .

[ReallyRue]

DeadlyHaven wrote...

I'm not gonna go on about why I don't like the new Anders, lol.

The companion I dislike the second most is Sebastian. We go through this whole big lesson about how revenge is wrong, Elthina even says it's wrong, Sebastian learns his lesson. Then Anders blows up the Chantry, causing Elthina to die, and all of a sudden Sebastian's like "REVEEEEEENGE!!! KILL THE MAGE!!!"

I was just like "Wait, didn't we agree that revenge is a bad thing. WTF. Make up your mind, dude!" Not to mention I hated his romance; being chaste I'm fine with, but you couldn't even kiss him.

I like the other characters. My friend says he hates Isabela, because she's just like Morrigan, but worse. I can see what he means. The whole "It was just for the sex" and later "I think I've fallen for you". Still, I don't hate Isabela; infact I love her, and think her personality is a lot different than Morrigan's.

...

Oh, and Carver's annoying.

That didn't remind me of Morrigan at all, it reminded me of Zevran. Both he and Isabela have that "sex is only for fun, putting feelings on it will just ruin it" attitude, and both are either in denial about how they feel about the PC, or they develop the feelings later. Whereas Morrigan is more "I am using you through sex because I want an OGB later, and love is for the weak".

[Carmen_Willow]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The funny thing is that I don't dislike any of the companions in either game. I mean I kind of suspected Leliana was a chantry spy from the start (or possibly an Orlesian spy), but she was nice enough, and so I just never trusted her... but that's hardly disliking her (and it turned out I was right all along, most likely.)

Sebastian is the character I come closest to disliking, seeing as he's the apotheosis of wealthy while male privilege, but I even have some sympathy for him.

Poor old Sebastian just can't catch a break!  When he acts like a noble, he is the apotheosis of wealthy while (sic) male privilege, and when he acts like a brother, he's a religious fanatic. 

Two of the most accepted villianous sterotypes today. East to dislike or alternatively, pity. If they had made him fat, he would have hit the Trifecta! 

[Sinuphro]

Arquen wrote...

I aim to please.. though I totally am trolling this thread more than actually contributing, lmao.

What got me was the story of some guy called Fenris who was living with his sister adriana. That poor guy chose to be a slave and apparently had his soul killed. I was intrigued. I must have missed that companion.

My Fenris eye-roll is coming across I hope?

u get the information as regards how fenris got those markings if u told fenris to spare his sister's life instead of killing her

[Heidenreich]

He got his markings by winning a tournament. The tournament's prize was "The boon", aka, one request granted "freely.". The boon he chose was the Freedom of his mother and sister. Gaider told us that he submitted only for the boon, and had no idea about the ritual.

His markings were given unwillingly, and he submitted to Denairus out of love of his family, not in any sort of quest for power.

[macrocarl]

Pretty much Sebastian. He's the only character I couldn't get into. It's like KILL MR. MAGE MAN! OR ELSE! And I was like, man, can't we maybe just yell at him and then move on? Every play through I was turned off by what a watery dude he was. Even the pro-Templar kill Anders play through. I was a little miffed with Fenris rivalry for the pro-mage play through. Really thought I could talk him out of fighting Hawke. No dice! Did anyone else get Fenris to come over the the Hawke-side for pro mage rivalry friendship?

[esper]

macrocarl wrote...

Pretty much Sebastian. He's the only character I couldn't get into. It's like KILL MR. MAGE MAN! OR ELSE! And I was like, man, can't we maybe just yell at him and then move on? Every play through I was turned off by what a watery dude he was. Even the pro-Templar kill Anders play through. I was a little miffed with Fenris rivalry for the pro-mage play through. Really thought I could talk him out of fighting Hawke. No dice! Did anyone else get Fenris to come over the the Hawke-side for pro mage rivalry friendship?

What's a rivalry friendship?
If you have done Fenris final question belief (rival or friendship) he stays with you no matter what. Between about 75-100 (cirka) points in either direction and he turns on you but can be persuaded to rejoin.

[Wulfram]

My experience is that you need full rivalry to keep Fenris on side.  Friendship has it easier.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The funny thing is that I don't dislike any of the companions in either game. I mean I kind of suspected Leliana was a chantry spy from the start (or possibly an Orlesian spy), but she was nice enough, and so I just never trusted her... but that's hardly disliking her (and it turned out I was right all along, most likely.)

Sebastian is the character I come closest to disliking, seeing as he's the apotheosis of wealthy white male privilege, but I even have some sympathy for him.

Poor old Sebastian just can't catch a break!  When he acts like a noble, he is the apotheosis of wealthy while (sic) male privilege, and when he acts like a brother, he's a religious fanatic. 

Two of the most accepted villianous sterotypes today. East to dislike or alternatively, pity. If they had made him fat, he would have hit the Trifecta! 

D'oh. Ah well, we all typo sometimes.

Actually, it's not being noble that makes Sebastian embody white male privilege, it's when he gives his little "none of us are free" line that I want to punch him in the face (please be advised that every character except Varric makes me want to punch them in the face at some point. It's not just a Sebastian thing.)

The first time I heard it I just sat there gobsmacked. Are you comparing... the fact that you got sent to the Chantry... which then allowed you to go off and do whatever you wanted until you voluntarily came back... to Anders being imprisoned for most of his life? Did that... just happen?

If you were Alistair (and buddy, you are no Alistair), who got packed off and stripped of most things he knew, with no choice in the matter, I'd say "OK, I can see how that's sort of comparable." I mean, Alistair did have visitors, at least, but he was still pretty royally screwed and robbed of any ability to determine his own future, until the Wardens came along. But you... you have nothing but choices. You have too many for your own liking, in fact.

Add to that Sebastian's constant excuses for the status quo, and his defenses of Elthina's inaction (not that Anders isn't being a giant jerk in how he phrases that conversation. It's one of HIS face-punch moments). Basically, whenever everything is pretty much working out for him, he condescendingly says that it's all part of the maker's plan whenever anyone else voices a concern about their own lives. Then, the instant something happens that he's not happy about, he abandons that whole "maker's plan" thing and screams bloody murder about how someone has to do something.

So it's not his wealth that makes him seem entitled... it's his willingness to equate his life experiences to the life experiences of people who have had significantly more difficult lives, who would probably trade places with him in a second.  It's also his tendency to use the "maker's plan" thing when others are having trouble, while wigging out when he is having trouble.

Now, interestingly enough, my second favorite Dragon Age 2 fic is a Sebastian one: Sign of the Maker. The version of Sebastian in the fic changes canon only a tiny, tiny bit, but if he behaved like that in the game, he'd be one of my favorite characters. In that fic, he's still incredibly loyal to the Chantry, still faithful, but when he finds out some of the horrors that mages face, he decides it's his duty as a member of the Chantry to ensure that such things don't happen again, and tries to start working with Elthina on reforming the system peacefully.

If we had a character like that in our party, it would change my perspective on oh so many things. it would have totally revolutionized how I think about everything. Instead we get yet another person who says "yeah, the circle has problems, maybe sometimes" but doens't actually seem motivated to do anything about it.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 octobre 2011 - 11:12 .

[Ineffable Igor]

Sinuphro wrote...

Arquen wrote...

I aim to please.. though I totally am trolling this thread more than actually contributing, lmao.

What got me was the story of some guy called Fenris who was living with his sister adriana. That poor guy chose to be a slave and apparently had his soul killed. I was intrigued. I must have missed that companion.

My Fenris eye-roll is coming across I hope?

u get the information as regards how fenris got those markings if u told fenris to spare his sister's life instead of killing her

The differences in the way people perceive characters and events relating to them never cease to amaze me.  The mind boggles.

[Carmen_Willow]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The funny thing is that I don't dislike any of the companions in either game. I mean I kind of suspected Leliana was a chantry spy from the start (or possibly an Orlesian spy), but she was nice enough, and so I just never trusted her... but that's hardly disliking her (and it turned out I was right all along, most likely.)

Sebastian is the character I come closest to disliking, seeing as he's the apotheosis of wealthy white male privilege, but I even have some sympathy for him.

Poor old Sebastian just can't catch a break!  When he acts like a noble, he is the apotheosis of wealthy while (sic) male privilege, and when he acts like a brother, he's a religious fanatic. 

Two of the most accepted villianous sterotypes today. East to dislike or alternatively, pity. If they had made him fat, he would have hit the Trifecta! 

D'oh. Ah well, we all typo sometimes.

Actually, it's not being noble that makes Sebastian embody white male privilege, it's when he gives his little "none of us are free" line that I want to punch him in the face (please be advised that every character except Varric makes me want to punch them in the face at some point. It's not just a Sebastian thing.)

The first time I heard it I just sat there gobsmacked. Are you comparing... the fact that you got sent to the Chantry... which then allowed you to go off and do whatever you wanted until you voluntarily came back... to Anders being imprisoned for most of his life? Did that... just happen?

If you were Alistair (and buddy, you are no Alistair), who got packed off and stripped of most things he knew, with no choice in the matter, I'd say "OK, I can see how that's sort of comparable." I mean, Alistair did have visitors, at least, but he was still pretty royally screwed and robbed of any ability to determine his own future, until the Wardens came along. But you... you have nothing but choices. You have too many for your own liking, in fact.

Add to that Sebastian's constant excuses for the status quo, and his defenses of Elthina's inaction (not that Anders isn't being a giant jerk in how he phrases that conversation. It's one of HIS face-punch moments). Basically, whenever everything is pretty much working out for him, he condescendingly says that it's all part of the maker's plan whenever anyone else voices a concern about their own lives. Then, the instant something happens that he's not happy about, he abandons that whole "maker's plan" thing and screams bloody murder about how someone has to do something.

So it's not his wealth that makes him seem entitled... it's his willingness to equate his life experiences to the life experiences of people who have had significantly more difficult lives, who would probably trade places with him in a second.  It's also his tendency to use the "maker's plan" thing when others are having trouble, while wigging out when he is having trouble.

Now, interestingly enough, my second favorite Dragon Age 2 fic is a Sebastian one: Sign of the Maker. The version of Sebastian in the fic changes canon only a tiny, tiny bit, but if he behaved like that in the game, he'd be one of my favorite characters. In that fic, he's still incredibly loyal to the Chantry, still faithful, but when he finds out some of the horrors that mages face, he decides it's his duty as a member of the Chantry to ensure that such things don't happen again, and tries to start working with Elthina on reforming the system peacefully.

If we had a character like that in our party, it would change my perspective on oh so many things. it would have totally revolutionized how I think about everything. Instead we get yet another person who says "yeah, the circle has problems, maybe sometimes" but doens't actually seem motivated to do anything about it.

Sebastian lost me when he wanted to turn in the apostates (because in his faith it would have been the "right" thing to do) but didn't have the huevos to do it.  He's not my favorite guy either.

He reminds me of Hamlet--knows what he's supposed to do but can't muster the will to do it. 

Sadly, as you know, in the middle ages, few people had any choice of career or spouse, and that was particularly true of the rich and powerful. The rich gave later born children to the church (at least one, to keep God on your side). If you didn't go to the church, you married for property and political power and you pretty much did what you were told by your family and if you were high enough up the food chain, by your king or queen.  People didn't expect to be happy. It wasn't just women who were bargained away. Sons were as well.

[MG800]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Sebastian lost me when he wanted to turn in the apostates (because in his faith it would have been the "right" thing to do) but didn't have the huevos to do it.  He's not my favorite guy either.

He reminds me of Hamlet--knows what he's supposed to do but can't muster the will to do it. 

Sadly, as you know, in the middle ages, few people had any choice of career or spouse, and that was particularly true of the rich and powerful. The rich gave later born children to the church (at least one, to keep God on your side). If you didn't go to the church, you married for property and political power and you pretty much did what you were told by your family and if you were high enough up the food chain, by your king or queen.  People didn't expect to be happy. It wasn't just women who were bargained away. Sons were as well.

Thedas is based on the middle ages, yes, but we didn't actually seen the "unhappy nobility". Of course, you can get a sense of it, in the HN origin but it was very mild, nonexistent almost. Couslands looked like a happy family, that happened to be a powerful nobility.
Then again, Circle didn't seem that bad either, except threats to kill you, if you take too much time in the Fade, or Kelli.
It was suppoused to be one of the lighter Circles, and yet people were desparate enough to raise up. Yet when we play a mage, it's hard to see where exacly lies the problem - beds are comfortable, nothing is sinking, poverty is non-existant. Of course, there are Tranquils. But they never tranquiled anyone for nothing there, from what we gathered. It's a prison - but compare it to the city elf origin or a dwarf commoner.  In the origins we get a general info  - but we don't see a full picture. 

So, except Leandra we didn't saw any "listen to the parents, or we disown you, and you're left with nothing" - and that's hardly an example, since despite threats, she wasn't disowned in the end. And with so much drama in the other groups, I just can't feel sorry for nobles.

Modifié par MG800, 11 octobre 2011 - 12:19 .