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[Carmen_Willow]

MG800 wrote...


Thedas is based on the middle ages, yes, but we didn't actually seen the "unhappy nobility". Of course, you can get a sense of it, in the HN origin but it was very mild, nonexistent almost. Couslands looked like a happy family, that happened to be a powerful nobility.
Then again, Circle didn't seem that bad either, except threats to kill you, if you take too much time in the Fade, or Kelli.
It was suppoused to be one of the lighter Circles, and yet people were desparate enough to raise up. Yet when we play a mage, it's hard to see where exacly lies the problem - beds are comfortable, nothing is sinking, poverty is non-existant. Of course, there are Tranquils. But they never tranquiled anyone for nothing there, from what we gathered. It's a prison - but compare it to the city elf origin or a dwarf commoner.  In the origins we get a general info  - but we don't see a full picture. 

So, except Leandra we didn't saw any "listen to the parents, or we disown you, and you're left with nothing" - and that's hardly an example, since despite threats, she wasn't disowned in the end. And with so much drama in the other groups, I just can't feel sorry for nobles.

Suggest you look at the Howes for a better example of Life in the Nobility. Daddy hates Mum, Eldest son an alcoholic. Daddy a traitor, Eldest son dead in the war. Maker only knows what Howe did to mummy. Sister glad not to be given to the Cousland boy.  I'd say the Couslands were an exception.

[MG800]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

MG800 wrote...


Thedas is based on the middle ages, yes, but we didn't actually seen the "unhappy nobility". Of course, you can get a sense of it, in the HN origin but it was very mild, nonexistent almost. Couslands looked like a happy family, that happened to be a powerful nobility.
Then again, Circle didn't seem that bad either, except threats to kill you, if you take too much time in the Fade, or Kelli.
It was suppoused to be one of the lighter Circles, and yet people were desparate enough to raise up. Yet when we play a mage, it's hard to see where exacly lies the problem - beds are comfortable, nothing is sinking, poverty is non-existant. Of course, there are Tranquils. But they never tranquiled anyone for nothing there, from what we gathered. It's a prison - but compare it to the city elf origin or a dwarf commoner.  In the origins we get a general info  - but we don't see a full picture. 

So, except Leandra we didn't saw any "listen to the parents, or we disown you, and you're left with nothing" - and that's hardly an example, since despite threats, she wasn't disowned in the end. And with so much drama in the other groups, I just can't feel sorry for nobles.

Suggest you look at the Howes for a better example of Life in the Nobility. Daddy hates Mum, Eldest son an alcoholic. Daddy a traitor, Eldest son dead in the war. Maker only knows what Howe did to mummy. Sister glad not to be given to the Cousland boy.  I'd say the Couslands were an exception.

Yes, but that's not an example of the "bad in nobility", just "bad in the family". Patological families happen everywhere. 
For now it's Amells, Howe's and Couslands - Couslands are happy, Howe's are not, and Amells didn't disown the daughter who instead of obeying them, runned off with some apostate(outlaw and the mercenary).

Modifié par MG800, 11 octobre 2011 - 12:36 .

[Carmen_Willow]

MG800 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

MG800 wrote...


Thedas is based on the middle ages, yes, but we didn't actually seen the "unhappy nobility". Of course, you can get a sense of it, in the HN origin but it was very mild, nonexistent almost. Couslands looked like a happy family, that happened to be a powerful nobility.
Then again, Circle didn't seem that bad either, except threats to kill you, if you take too much time in the Fade, or Kelli.
It was suppoused to be one of the lighter Circles, and yet people were desparate enough to raise up. Yet when we play a mage, it's hard to see where exacly lies the problem - beds are comfortable, nothing is sinking, poverty is non-existant. Of course, there are Tranquils. But they never tranquiled anyone for nothing there, from what we gathered. It's a prison - but compare it to the city elf origin or a dwarf commoner.  In the origins we get a general info  - but we don't see a full picture. 

So, except Leandra we didn't saw any "listen to the parents, or we disown you, and you're left with nothing" - and that's hardly an example, since despite threats, she wasn't disowned in the end. And with so much drama in the other groups, I just can't feel sorry for nobles.

Suggest you look at the Howes for a better example of Life in the Nobility. Daddy hates Mum, Eldest son an alcoholic. Daddy a traitor, Eldest son dead in the war. Maker only knows what Howe did to mummy. Sister glad not to be given to the Cousland boy.  I'd say the Couslands were an exception.

Yes, but that's not an example of the "bad in nobility", just "bad in the family". Patological families happen everywhere. 
For now it's Amells, Howe's and Couslands - Couslands are happy, Howe's are not, and Amells didn't disown the daughter who instead of obeying them, runned off with some apostate(outlaw and the mercenary).

So we can't feel any compassion for bad psychological noble families because they are noble? Their pain doesn't count because they're rich?

How about losing everything you have because your father ends up on the wrong side of the war?  Sure, Howe was a psychopath, but I'm pretty sure there were other noble families who lost it all because they backed Loghain. In fact, I had to decide a case like that in Awakenings.

The "being forced to marry someone" theme comes up a couple of times. Delilah in Awakenings was pretty much figuring that would happen until Howe went traitor, and the family that murdered Seb's family (can't think of the name offhand), Mom's going to marry her daughter off for power, but it didn't sound like she expected to have any trouble doing it. Sounds like marrying your offspring to people who can bring you power and money was pretty common for the nobility in Thedas. 

And despite the fact that the parent left her money, they certainly didn't write any letters to Leandra or invite the kids over for the Maker holidays. 

[Sinuphro]

Heidenreich wrote...

He got his markings by winning a tournament. The tournament's prize was "The boon", aka, one request granted "freely.". The boon he chose was the Freedom of his mother and sister. Gaider told us that he submitted only for the boon, and had no idea about the ritual.

His markings were given unwillingly, and he submitted to Denairus out of love of his family, not in any sort of quest for power.

my point is he didn't have to do it; but he did it. He could had just been an ordinary slave but noooo. then don't forget the last ppl that tried to give him a better life... he MURDERED them. To me; him receiving those markings was equivalent to being killed. Danarius should had have a routine of brainwashing fenris every year. The thing most annoying about fenris is...yes he had a difficult life...however he's unsympathetic to innocent mages being persecuted. i refuse to have someone that selfish around me

Modifié par Sinuphro, 11 octobre 2011 - 02:22 .

[Ineffable Igor]

Sinuphro wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

He got his markings by winning a tournament. The tournament's prize was "The boon", aka, one request granted "freely.". The boon he chose was the Freedom of his mother and sister. Gaider told us that he submitted only for the boon, and had no idea about the ritual.

His markings were given unwillingly, and he submitted to Denairus out of love of his family, not in any sort of quest for power.

my point is he didn't have to do it; but he did it. He could had just been an ordinary slave but noooo. then don't forget the last ppl that tried to give him a better life... he MURDERED them. To me; him receiving those markings was equivalent to being killed. Danarius should had have a routine of brainwashing fenris every year. The thing most annoying about fenris is...yes he had a difficult life...however he's unsympathetic to innocent mages being persecuted. i refuse to have someone that selfish around me

I will present my perspective concerning the issues raised, I don't intend to argue about it extensively or expect to change any opinions, I just ask that this be read and considered.

He did choose to compete for the boon, yes.  What should be taken into account was his motivation for doing what he did.  I think it is fairly clear, given what Varania tells him at the end of Alone, that his reason for wanting to compete for the boon was a desire to help his mother and sister.  So, yes, he could have just decided not to try and to be a normal slave for the rest of his life, but apparently Leto wasn't the sort of person who would be satisfied with letting the status quo stand while both he and the people he loved were suffering.  So, he took action and competed for the boon so he could help the people he loved, not out of any sort of selfish desire.

Now, when it comes to the Fog Warriors, we have to consider the mental state Fenris was in at that point in time.  His memory had been erased.  His only experience was of his life as Danarius's body guard, he didn't know anything else or aspire to anything better.  While with the Fog Warriors, they showed him there was something better.  What they could not do was cure him of his slave mentality.  No matter how well they treated him or how fond of them he had become, Fenris was not an autonomous being and did not know how to be one, so when Danarius returned and told him to kill the Fog Warriors, it was simply the only thing he knew how to do at that point.   It wasn't a choice for him, "it felt inevitable", because he wasn't capable of seeing another option, given the circumstances. 

The act of killing people he cared about and the pain that accompanied it is was what finally triggered his desire to escape and control his own life.  His "this is wrong and I don't like it" bells went off, most likely due to the influence of what he had seen and experienced while living free with the Fog Warriors and it was enough to send him running.

As for his hatred of mages and inability to empathize with them, it is understandable (though I don't consider it justified).  To him, all mages are guilty until proven innocent because he has only experienced the worst aspects of mages and magic.  You can't expect him to be all "Let's free the mages because they are oppressed and abused and I know first-hand how horrible that is!" because it was the mages who were oppressing and abusing him.  From his perspectvie it's "Oppress or be oppressed" and he sure as hell has no intention of letting himself be enslaved ever again.  I don't think he is right and he is incredibly prejudiced, but it would be very implausible for him to hold any other view given his past, so while I do not agree with him, I cannot blame him for feeling the way he does.

And that's all I have to say about that. 

[MG800]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

So we can't feel any compassion for bad psychological noble families because they are noble? Their pain doesn't count because they're rich?

How about losing everything you have because your father ends up on the wrong side of the war?  Sure, Howe was a psychopath, but I'm pretty sure there were other noble families who lost it all because they backed Loghain. In fact, I had to decide a case like that in Awakenings.

The "being forced to marry someone" theme comes up a couple of times. Delilah in Awakenings was pretty much figuring that would happen until Howe went traitor, and the family that murdered Seb's family (can't think of the name offhand), Mom's going to marry her daughter off for power, but it didn't sound like she expected to have any trouble doing it. Sounds like marrying your offspring to people who can bring you power and money was pretty common for the nobility in Thedas. 

And despite the fact that the parent left her money, they certainly didn't write any letters to Leandra or invite the kids over for the Maker holidays.  

Didn't I said "I just can't feel bad for nobles"? 
And my statement was about general situation in nobility. As far as we know, it's not that bad. That doesn't mean nothing's wrong in every family, far from it, after the Blight. My problem started, when you started to genaralize, claiming "Nobles are unhappy", and not  "Nobles who lost their family or were generally f*cked up as a family are unhappy".

And when I said "there's a mention of it, in the HN origin" I was refering to forced marriages, but how much pressure is on that matter is yet to be seen. Especially, since we play a child of the woman, who succesfully ran away, with a no serious concequences whatsover - reaction of the Amells isn't too harsh or suprising, since they were rather on disapproving side, about who Leandra's choosen to ran with. "When I was marrying your father - I was bringing more magic to our family" - paraphrazing Leandra, that's one of the issues they had. Can't really blame them, especially if they're so intent on staying in Kirkwall.

Situacions like this, daddy hates mommy, dad lost his live tot he Blight or civil war, excluding "marriage issue" happen whatever family is noble, of modarate wealth or poor. That doesn't mean you can't feel sorry for them. That just means nobles aren't "generally unhappy" - it's not a rule.

Modifié par MG800, 11 octobre 2011 - 10:24 .

[labargegrrrl]

wow there's a lot of hate in here! i just don't get it. for me, the only real sin any of the characters could commit that is unforgivable, would be to not have a compelling story. which, i think they all do. my favorite to least favorite list always ranks from most compelling to least compelling. the only time i ever really wanted to strangle a character, was when Isabella hit on Fenris while i was romancing him. seriously, gf, you're not that damn picky so go find someone else to get your kicks with!

[WillPF363]

I hate Anders. Annoying, whiny, hypocrite, terrorist a-hole.
I really like murder-knifing him though. In fact, I do believe that was the Murder Knife's greatest moment.

I have similar problems with Fenris- what with all the whining about hating mages. But at least he'll talk about other things, and he's not so bad then.

[Sealy]

I have come to believe that none of the characters are whiney, anymore then anyone in this thread is. I mean they state their opinions, tell their stories and argue with eachother and Hawke. Anders is trying to start a revolution. You don't get anything done by dropping the subject, which is why he brings it up and forces discussions with people. Is it annoying, like the other companions my Hawkes sometimes want to tape his mouth shut, but none of my Hawkes call him whiney anymore, they call him fervent... and loud.

[Isaidlunch]

I used to dislike both Sebastian and Bethany but they've grown on me. They're both well done characters that I overlooked because they weren't the typical "LOOK AT ME I HAVE PROBLEMS" type of characters that we always meet in RPG's.

That leaves me with no companions left to hate. Woe is me.

[jamesp81]

Fenris is an enormous dick.  I want to murder knife his brooding ass every time he opens his mouth, especially to Bethany or Merrill.

I am reminded of one of the banters:

Fenris: You know, you cannot wish the templars away.
Bethany: I can try
Fenris: Is the Circle here really so terrible of an option?
Bethany: Do you really have to ask that?
Fenris: You would be kept safe, from others as well as from yourself.  And they would be kept safe from you.
Bethany: I didn't ask for this.
Fenris: Nobody asks for their fate.

Here's another Fenris gem:

Fenris (to Merrill): I'm not sorry that she died.  I'm sorry that she died for you.

If BW gave us murder-knife option, I'd kill this son of a **** immediately for even speaking to Bethany about going to the Circle, or stomping on Merrill during her worst hour.  In fact, in my next playthrough, I think I might sell him back to Danarius.  And he doesn't get to ASK for a different fate when I do, either:devil:  I think of it as karma for wishing slavery upon mages.

Modifié par jamesp81, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:48 .

[Chiramu]

The only character I really disliked was Merrill because her voice was UBER annoying and she is exactly like a 5 year old child when you take away their teddy bear. "Are you gonna sulk all day?" "NO!" 

Anders is a little annoying because of all the times he goes on about how he loves you and whatnot. "Yeah I get it, get over it."

I only wish they didn't write Isabela to be so "whorish", she's a strong woman, if only they didn't add that **** element to her she would be perfect.

The others were fine for me though.
I loved getting Friendship with Fenris, it was so much fun as a mage.

Modifié par Chiramu, 14 octobre 2011 - 02:05 .

[Reno_Tarshil]

Sebastian, I honestly couldnt find a reason to bring a long liek I did with Fenris.

Maybe his Murder meme put me off idk.